Skoffin's Madhouse mafia Day Seven

[animorpherv1]

OK, here's my thing, Yes, I did agree with you, but there was this bit saying "maybe she(?)'s lying. But after exile said those things, and AD said what he sais, I felt like that was what I was about to say.

[F1fth]

I agree with Sierra on Exile here. In a game where it's so easy to make up a fake role, why would he risk drawing a lot of attention to himself by claiming the same role as someone else? It would be a terrible move if he were scum, especially this early on in the game. I can't see Exile making this mistake.

[The Weird One]

SL, I swapped because I started to think [if you notice, day one I was a little lacking in that department] I realixed that dito was the first to make that claim. As you said, it's an uncommon role. How the hell could he have pulled it out of his ass if it's such an uncommon role. It seems a touch too coincidental that he claimed and soon after exile followed suit.

[Sierra_Leon]

SL, I swapped because I started to think [if you notice, day one I was a little lacking in that department] I realixed that dito was the first to make that claim. As you said, it's an uncommon role. How the hell could he have pulled it out of his ass if it's such an uncommon role. It seems a touch too coincidental that he claimed and soon after exile followed suit.

I suspected at first that Dito was a mafia Historian and exile was a town Historian. That's why I asked exile whether he had answered the question about his alignment before. But then exile claimed to be neutral, like Dito had claimed. This has boosts exile's scummyness by a fair measure, but Dito is still on top the scummyness-scale.

@ animorph: could you quote or rephrase in your own words exactly what you were about to say please? (I'm referring to the "AD said what he sais, I felt like that was what I was about to say" part of your last post)
I accused you of only following other people's opinions, and you defended yourself by repeating who's opinions you followed. Ehrmm...

[/]

Can our claimed "historians" use their roles every once in awhile so we can actually pretend to believe at least one is telling the truth *cough*votes*cough*?
Also, do safe claims usually come with complete roles, I thought it's usually just names?

He could have put one and one together after dito claimed. if exile was told that he could claim historian, or was given the name of a historian for it, he could've easily jumped in to say "me too!" when dito was giving out his role because it seemed to be a solid and safe role.

Why would exile claim dito's role? It's a rare, made-up role, so the chances of there being two of those roles in the game are practically none-existent. The only way I could see that happening is if those roles are of different alignment. This is not exile's first game; he must have realized this too. You can't possibly argue it "seemed to be a solid and safe role" for him to claim.

I think exile would only counter-claim a role like that if he had nothing to hide and is speaking the truth. Hence, Dito is likely lying.

I still fail to see how this incriminates Dito at all, there are 32 people in this game there isn't any evidence so far that there aren't a couple of the same roles to make counting easier, besides, the role, as far as we know so far, is basically vanilla third party who has to do vote counts, hardly a role that has to be restricted to one person.
Also there have been countless historians throughout history, why claim two so closely related? (who also had a rivalry) I still believe that with all the hinting going on, these two are more closely related than we believe.
Unvote

[kwanton]

hmmm I came up with a lot of the points for the exile bandwagon and I still don't agree with it

Well I do think he should be lynched, but after a good discussion would be nice. Not "hey I agree with the guy above me so I'll vote exile."

So, I ask both dito and exile: What reason do we have to believe you over the other?

Why should we think that you are both neutral when you are rival historians?

Why should we not just lynch the both of you and be done with this mess?


I await your awe-inspiring defenses

[kwanton]

As an aside:

The voice has been quiet thus far. I was kinda curious as to what he would say today to follow up the lord voldemort thing.

[Fircoal]

O_O Wait a minute. Rival historians... Exile pushes for Dito's lynch. I'm thinking rival lynchers. This is a Skoff game. It's not out of the question. Actually I think it would be quite fun in her twisted mind.

[kwanton]

Which is why i haven't voted yet

[Ditocoaf]

I think exile would only counter-claim a role like that if he had nothing to hide and is speaking the truth. Hence, Dito is likely lying.

So if exile is 1) a survivor, with 2) mandatory vote counts, in fact has to do 3) two of them a day, and 4) his role is called "Historian"...

How could I come up with that exact same claim, as a lie? You're saying I just pulled those four things out of my ass, and there just happened to be a real role exactly like that in every way? Me=lie and exile=truth, is the one possibility that doesn't make sense.

There are four possibilities
I'm lying and exile is telling the truth: Doesn't make sense for the plain and simple reason above.
We're both lying: I suppose we could both be fake-claiming. This is a possibility.
We're both telling the truth: This could have been a possibility; Skoffin could have made two identical roles to make her job even easier (two vote counts isn't much). however, exile is pushing for my lynch. Surely he would have realized that me=lie/he=true is almost impossible; I don't see how he could believe I happened to fake-claim his actual role.
I'm telling the truth and exile is lying: The possibility that fits all the evidence, considering I claimed the obscure role first, and exile is pushing for my lynch.

So the only two possibilities are that we're both lying, or that I'm telling the truth and he's lying. I don't see how, in the given circumstances, he could be telling the truth.

[The Weird One]

[cough]lyncher/lynchee[/cough]

[Ditocoaf]

[cough]lyncher/lynchee[/cough]

he was trying to lynch me first... and he claimed after I did. If I were a lyncher, I'd be pretty lucky for my target to seek out confrontation with me.

[kwanton]

2 flaws i want to point out in you're logic dito.

1st you say that it is logically impossible for you to lie and exile to be telling the truth. This is not true. In some mafia games, fake claims are given out by the mods. And skoffin would be just the type of person to give scum a fake claim which matches a town player's true role (trust me, she's mean like that). It's actually a very plausible possibility (which is one of the reasons why I didn't push for an immediate exile lynch)

2nd, not so much your logic as you're response to TWO. There's also the possibility that you both are lyncher and lynchee, meaning you have each other as targets but you do not know that you are the target of the other (confusing ) Usually I like to play the game and not the mod, but I have to say again the skoff would do this kind of thing. I think this is a far-fethced possibility considering neither pushed too hard for the other's lynch after the two claims (until now with dito) but the possibility is still there.

More updates as events allow

[The Weird One]

seems to me that exile has been pushing kinda hard for dito's lynch.

[Ditocoaf]

2 flaws i want to point out in you're logic dito.

fair enough, let's hear it.

1st you say that it is logically impossible for you to lie and exile to be telling the truth. This is not true. In some mafia games, fake claims are given out by the mods. And skoffin would be just the type of person to give scum a fake claim which matches a town player's true role (trust me, she's mean like that). It's actually a very plausible possibility (which is one of the reasons why I didn't push for an immediate exile lynch)

well, it seems to me that Skoffin may like to be mean, but only when compatible with her tendency to be lazy. Someone else pointed out that since it took her so long to send out all the roles, when would she get around to sending out the fake claims? But I admit that with this possibility, my logic isn't as airtight as I thought. So there's a possibility that Exile is town, and just really really convinced that Skoffin bothered to send scum a "safe" claim. But still, I think the probability is that Skoffin wouldn't bother, and that exile knows it.

2nd, not so much your logic as you're response to TWO. There's also the possibility that you both are lyncher and lynchee, meaning you have each other as targets but you do not know that you are the target of the other (confusing ) Usually I like to play the game and not the mod, but I have to say again the skoff would do this kind of thing. I think this is a far-fethced possibility considering neither pushed too hard for the other's lynch after the two claims (until now with dito) but the possibility is still there.

If we're playing the mod, then I agree that's the sort of thing skoffin might pull. Though if it's a game that she's calling "experimental," I imagine there's something even more ass-backwards going on. But the more airtight response is what you said yourself; neither of us really pushed for eachother's lynch yesterday, even when it looked like both of us (especially myself) were the prime candidates. It wasn't until today that he pushed for my lynch fairly hard, and I started thinking he's scum. But really, I'm not so dedicated that I wouldn't reconsider if someone provides some good evidence against someone else, or some good evidence protecting exile.

[F1fth]

O_O Wait a minute. Rival historians... Exile pushes for Dito's lynch. I'm thinking rival lynchers. This is a Skoff game. It's not out of the question. Actually I think it would be quite fun in her twisted mind.

This is exactly what I was just thinking. It would explain the both players' actions up to this point. When Dito claimed, Exile could have seen the opportunity to counterclaim for a quick day 1 test lynch, achieving his win condition.

[/]

Perhaps the reason that they only started against each other after the claim is because they didn't know everything about their target like in a traditional setup, Like maybe they only knew each other's role name, but not their target (which would explain why Exile went after dito right after his claim), This would also explain Dito's excuse of only targeting Exile today, as Exile didn't provide a role name until fairly recently.

[Ditocoaf]

Yeah, I'll just let you guys talk that one out. Not much I can say.

[Fircoal]

And skoffin would be just the type of person to give scum a fake claim which matches a town player's true role (trust me, she's mean like that).

I think Skoffin would be more the type of person that's too lazy to do that type of stuff.

[Sierra_Leon]

I didn't know they were rival historians, so I searched Wikipedia for some more information. It seems they didn't live in the same time, so they're not actually personal rivals, but it's their methods/traditions that differ.

The tension between the Thucydidean and Herodotean traditions extends beyond historical research. According to Irving Kristol, considered the founder of American Neoconservatism, Thucydides wrote "the favorite neoconservative text on foreign affairs," and Thucydides is a required text at the Naval War College. On the other hand, author and labour lawyer Thomas Geoghegan recommends Herodotus as a better source than Thucydides for drawing historical lessons relevant for the present.

I agree that this fits the rival lynchers profile. I suggest we lynch one of them anyway. Hopefully, if we lynch one, the other will have won and be removed from the game. That rids us of 2 non-townies with one lynch. I still prefer Dito, on the chance he's not a lyncher but mafia, but I'll be content with an exile lynch too.

[Skoffin]

Announcements:
mandyb has been replaced by firedud.
ga7 has been replaced by Mandalorian. (I expect this game to get 10x crazier by the next time I'm on)

Vote counts and other stuff as soon as I get back online tomorrow, for now I pass into sleep mode. Fir, you can have your vote back.

[william18]

I didn't know they were rival historians, so I searched Wikipedia for some more information. It seems they didn't live in the same time, so they're not actually personal rivals, but it's their methods/traditions that differ.

The tension between the Thucydidean and Herodotean traditions extends beyond historical research. According to Irving Kristol, considered the founder of American Neoconservatism, Thucydides wrote "the favorite neoconservative text on foreign affairs," and Thucydides is a required text at the Naval War College. On the other hand, author and labour lawyer Thomas Geoghegan recommends Herodotus as a better source than Thucydides for drawing historical lessons relevant for the present.

I agree that this fits the rival lynchers profile. I suggest we lynch one of them anyway. Hopefully, if we lynch one, the other will have won and be removed from the game. That rids us of 2 non-townies with one lynch. I still prefer Dito, on the chance he's not a lyncher but mafia, but I'll be content with an exile lynch too.

Why not just nk so none of them win?

[Anarkistsdream]

Here is my main concern...

Exile's cryptic "Things will be really screwed up if I die" threat.

If he were truly nothing to fear, and if he was so innocent, why would he try that intimidation crap? He wouldn't.

Dito, at this time, has only tried to defend himself with honesty- or so it seems. He is not trying to intimidate us or scare us into submission, which is EXACTLY what Exile has been trying to do.

My vote stays.

[mr. incrediball]

ok, so here's my 2 cents on what's going on with exile and dito:

they're both telling the truth (role and alignment): this seems... plausible. i see very few reasons exile would claim the same role, were it to be otherwise.

they're rival lynchers: equally plausible, seeing how they've been going at each other since this whole debacle started, and neither is willing to leave the other alone.

they're telling the truth (role) but one/both are lying (alignment): "rival historians" may not neccessarily mean that they are lynchers. one could be town, and the other mafia. OR they could even be rival scum groups.

one is telling the truth and the other is lying: if this is true, then it's probably exile who's lying. i'm not exactly happy with the "skoffin gave dito an exact safeclaim of a role which already existed" theory. (be honest, if skoffin gave you a 3rd-party vote-counting "safeclaim", would you roll with it?)

exile is an awesome jester who's about to majorly f*ck with us all: this is unlikely, but it could use consideration:

1: skoffin is a bastard mod. jesters are a prime example of bastard moddery.
2: exile appears to be digging a hole, while he also appears to be trying to look pro-town. could be a very elaborate ploy, to make us think he's scummy, but not obviously trying to be scummy.
3: i LIKE jesters O.o

if that last possibility is true, then i name exile "mafia player of the year".

[fireedud]

confirm

I'll reread what happened.