Conquer Club

Sage

40 Pieces of Proof of God

/thread

AAFitz,

Maybe you should quote me if you claim that I did.

What do you want me to answer? Can you define proven if you want me to say what something has proven?

pimpdave wrote:40 Pieces of Proof of God

/thread

ZOMG! JESUS!!
___________________

Lionz:.....1) Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Neotony:..2) "No it doesn't."
Lionz:.....3) Whatever, God exists.

I'm not sure if Marco Polo personally wrote The Travels of Marco Polo and I said stuff wrong maybe.

pimpdave wrote:40 Pieces of Proof of God

/thread

The argument from stupidity is hard to argue against, as is the argument from Guitar Mastery.

Lionz wrote:AAFitz,

Maybe you should quote me if you claim that I did.

What do you want me to answer? Can you define proven if you want me to say what something has proven?

I see no reason to not claim something is true, simply because I believe it is in this thread. I consider that belief proof, and therefore proven. Isnt that exactly what you do?

Can you reword?

Goddist: You can't get Something from Nothing.
Non-goddist: Huh?
G: It's logical. There never was anything that didn't have a cause.
NG: I'm not absolutely sure about that. Is it logic or observation?
G: Logic, obviously.
NG: Well, I'm not sure about that. But let's posit it so we can get on.
G: So you admit it?
NG: Posit it.
G: Same thing.
NG: OK fine. I admit it. Now what?
G: Well, the Universe is something ain't it?
NG: Quite something.
G: So it didn't come from nothin, huh?
NG: What did it come from then?
G: God. Obviously.
NG: Where did God come from?
G: God? God didn't have to come from anything. He's God, ffs.
NG: "God" sure sounds like "something from nothing" to me...
G: Yah, well when I said You can't get Something from Nothing, I didn't mean I can't...

I remember walking accross the street from Dairy Queen to my apartment complex in 2nd grade and just going nuts saying (in my head), "who created you God? who created you God?" I finally gave it a rest and just put it aside for the most part and then in 7th grade a freind of mine said, "God created logic".

pimpdave wrote:40 Pieces of Proof of God

/thread

bump for funnys

Uncle Waldo wrote:I remember walking accross the street from Dairy Queen to my apartment complex in 2nd grade and just going nuts saying (in my head), "who created you God? who created you God?" I finally gave it a rest and just put it aside for the most part and then in 7th grade a freind of mine said, "God created logic".

Pfffttttt...........everyone knows Spock created logic.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

CreepersWiener wrote:I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

God is ultimately a matter of belief.

But then, you cannot prove there is NO God, either.

The proof for either comes within.

you may not be able to prove there is no GOD but you can sure as hell prove that everything humans belief about what he does is utter bullshit.

LikeYestrdaysJam wrote:you may not be able to prove there is no GOD but you can sure as hell prove that everything humans belief about what he does is utter bullshit.

OK, shoot.

WHY IN SCIENCE'S NAME DID YOU BUMP THIS

Why do you keep posting in this thread?

Sir, because I'm a hypocrite sir.

Lionz wrote:
PLAYER,

Did Marco Polo not write about living dinosaurs in The Travels of Marco Polo and suggest there were people hunting dinosaurs over 50 feet in length less than 1,000 years ago in it? http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3806 . Did he not even claim a Chinese Emperor had a number of dragons which were used to pull his chariots in parades?

Whether he did or not, it was not true. Many things reported by explorers were either outright exaggerations or things they believed to be true that have long since been proven false. For something to be accepted as credible by any science -- be it anthropology, geology, paleontology or even history, it must be proven true.

Lionz wrote:
Did Josephus not write about flying serpents in the Antiquities of the Jews? Did Herodotus not write of winged serpents over two thousand years ago? Does the Aberdeen Bestiary not clearly refer to one or more dinosaur? Are dragons not mentioned as very rare but still living creatures in a 16th century four-volume encyclopedia entitled Historiae Animalium? http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/history/history.htm. Did Daniken ever suggest that the great pyramid was designed by the Father or suggest that it backed up Hebrew scripture?

I am not familiar enough with these references to give any explanation. I can think of several off the top of my head, but will come back with more later .. right now, I have to go, my kids are waking from their naps.

Mostly, it comes down to that many people put forward things they believed to be true, but which were just not. When it comes to anything Biblical, I look to only 2 real sources. The Bible itself (and dinosaurs were NOT mentioned therein, unless of course you count birds) and proven, verified other evidence. All those other sources to which you point almost certainly don't qualify.
(I hesitate about Josephus - I would guess he is reporting something many jews of the day believed, not something truly verified. However, I also know some of his writings are questioned.)

Does one or more thing not come down to you choosing to not believe historical reports if they don't mesh with a world view that's been built up around you? Also, any thoughts on tanniyn or Job 40:15-18?
http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=08577
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/job40.htm

Lionz wrote:Did Josephus not write about flying serpents in the Antiquities of the Jews?

Winged serpents show up everywhere, from Egypt to Central America. There is only one problem, as stated they never existed. All examples of "winged serpents" are those of snakes with wings. The reason for this fuality can be seen in the following excerpt in Wikipedia.

The Feathered Serpent was a prominent supernatural entity or deity, found in many Mesoamerican religions. It was called Quetzalcoatl among the Aztecs, Kukulkan among the Yucatec Maya, and Tepeu Gukumatz among the K'iche' (Quiché) Maya. The double symbolism used in its name is considered allegoric to the dual nature of the deity, where being feathered represents its divine nature or ability to fly to reach the skies and being a serpent represents its human nature or ability to creep on the ground among other animals of the Earth, a dualism very common in Mesoamerican deities.

In Egypt, the notion that the head of a cobra can have a wing like appearance which could also give way to the flying serpent stories. Given the fact that this was also the M.O. of the predynastic cobra goddess of Lower Egypt, Wadjyt, we can see how these early legends developed in that region. This was then expounded upon by the Greeks, especially Herodotus in the 5th century B.C.

By the time you get to Josephus' time these legends had been going back and forth in the region for many centuries. Bear in mind that they are also seen in traditional Jewish scriptures, so Josephus would have no reason to quesiton their validity.

LikeYestrdaysJam wrote:you may not be able to prove there is no GOD but you can sure as hell prove that everything humans belief about what he does is utter bullshit.

OK, shoot.

What could a notion that the head of a cobra can have a wing like appearance logically explain for you if Herodotus described wings without feathers like wings of a bat in Historiae?

Also...

"Among Serpents, we find some that are furnished with Wings. Herodotus who saw those Serpents, says they had great Resemblance to those which the Greeks and Latins call'd Hydra; their Wings are not compos'd of Feathers like the Wings of Birds, but rather like to those of Batts; they love sweet smells, and frequent such Trees as bear Spices. These were the fiery Serpents that made so great a Destruction in the Camp of Israel...The brazen Serpent was a Figure of the flying Serpent, Saraph, which Moses fixed upon an erected Pole: That there were such, is most evident. Herodotus who had seen of those Serpents, says they very much resembled those which the Greeks and Latins called Hydra: He went on purpose to the City of Brutus to see those flying Animals, that had been devour'd by the Ibidian Birds." (Owen, Charles, An Essay Towards a Natural History of Serpents, 1742, pp. 191-193.)

Maybe I quoted wrong for all I know and you should look for that here... http://www.genesispark.org/genpark/history/history.htm

Lionz wrote:What could a notion that the head of a cobra can have a wing like appearance logically explain for you if Herodotus described wings without feathers like wings of a bat in Historiae?

Also...

"Among Serpents, we find some that are furnished with Wings. Herodotus who saw those Serpents, says they had great Resemblance to those which the Greeks and Latins call'd Hydra; their Wings are not compos'd of Feathers like the Wings of Birds, but rather like to those of Batts; they love sweet smells, and frequent such Trees as bear Spices. These were the fiery Serpents that made so great a Destruction in the Camp of Israel...The brazen Serpent was a Figure of the flying Serpent, Saraph, which Moses fixed upon an erected Pole: That there were such, is most evident. Herodotus who had seen of those Serpents, says they very much resembled those which the Greeks and Latins called Hydra: He went on purpose to the City of Brutus to see those flying Animals, that had been devour'd by the Ibidian Birds." (Owen, Charles, An Essay Towards a Natural History of Serpents, 1742, pp. 191-193.)

Maybe I quoted wrong for all I know and you should look for that here... http://www.genesispark.org/genpark/history/history.htm

All I can say about that 18th century quote is ... WTF? That's got to be the worst mish mosh of history I've seen in a long time.

Let's start from the beginning, work through the middle and hopefully, like Hercules we can clean all the horse manure from this stable of a quote.

Let’s start off right with the Hydra, who was not winged in any manner whatsoever.

In Greek mythology, the Lernaean Hydra (Greek: Λερναία Ὕδρα) was an ancient nameless serpent-like chthonic water beast (as its name evinces) that possessed many heads — the poets mention more heads than the vase-painters could paint for each head cut off it grew two more — and poisonous breath so virulent even her tracks were deadly. The Hydra of Lerna was killed by Heracles as one of his Twelve Labours. Its lair was the lake of Lerna in the Argolid, though archaeology has borne out the myth that the sacred site was older even than the Mycenaean city of Argos since Lerna was the site of the myth of the Danaids. Beneath the waters was an entrance to the Underworld, and the Hydra was its guardian.

And now let’s talk about Moses …

In punishment the LORD sent among the people saraph serpents, which bit the people so that many of them died. Then the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned in complaining against the LORD and you. Pray the LORD to take the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people, and the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover." Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.

( Saraph: the Hebrew name for a certain species of venomous snakes; the word probably signifies "the fiery one," these snakes being so called from the burning effect of their poisonous bite. ) New American Bible Footnote

So let’s see, we are now talking ZERO out of two in the winged serpent category. Neither the Hydra nor the Bronze Serpent had wings, feathers or bat.

It is important to remember that in the early centuries the notion of accuracy in reporting was not just somewhat lacking, it was non existent. There are numerous cases of second hand reports of second hand reports taking all sorts of tales of animals and stretching them well beyond their original observations into the realm of the fantastic. This, combined with smatterings of tall tales (for the sake of symbolism) and regional pride (my local creature can whip their local creature, which is why you don’t see any of their local creature around these parts) is the reason why a lot of these tales cannot be used at face value for anything.

Herodotus might know more about what Hydra would mean to ancient Greeks than wikipedia and what does the last quote or whatever have to do with whether or not Moses used a winged serpent?