C.C. Finals THOTA vs. KoRT [27-33] Kort WINS ! [FINAL]

[InsomniaRed]

If CoF is going to post a pic, I hope it's the one he sent me a couple months ago. That was amazing!!!

No that was Shatner's Bassoon, he's always the teaser pic.

[Lubawski]

If CoF is going to post a pic, I hope it's the one he sent me a couple months ago. That was amazing!!!

No that was Shatner's Bassoon, he's always the teaser pic.

I didn't say it was OF CoF, did I? Just that CoF sent it to me.

[Master Fenrir]

@CoF: my post is not what we did not loose, my post is what did we win, while yours is what you did not loose. 2 different statements, so unable to compare.

Sorry to butt in, but reading this almost made my brain explode. You can compare them if you're logical.

double negation
— n
LOGIC: the principle that a statement is equivalent to the denial of its negation, as "it is not the case that John is not here" meaning "John is here"

"Equivalent" is the key word, meaning both posts mean the same thing.

I demand pics

I don't. I heard the ladies nicknamed it "Dong Kong."

[Rodion]

@CoF: my post is not what we did not loose, my post is what did we win, while yours is what you did not loose. 2 different statements, so unable to compare.

Sorry to butt in, but reading this almost made my brain explode. You can compare them if you're logical.

double negation
— n
LOGIC: the principle that a statement is equivalent to the denial of its negation, as "it is not the case that John is not here" meaning "John is here"

"Equivalent" is the key word, meaning both posts mean the same thing.

In that case, I'll have to play devil's advocate just for the sake of arguing.

Your logic only applies when there are only 2 possibilities to a certain thing. Then, by denying one possibility, you in fact claim the other.

Challenges can be won, lost or tied. That makes 3 possibilities. Negating one ("I did not lose") is not the equivalent of claiming another ("I won"), as a 3rd possibility is still there.

This is not what Josko tried to say (his idea was that "not losing to top 5 clans during a year" can be simply achieved by "not playing top 5 clans during a year", while "beating top 5 clans during a year" is a whole different monster), but I felt like discussing it anyway.

[Leehar]

But isn't that what CoF highlighted earlier? That Josko did say 'what Kort didn't lose' instead of 'what kort did win' when he said, he said that?
Wait, now I'm even confusing myself, this hasn't happened to any of you yet?

[josko.ri]

@CoF: my post is not what we did not loose, my post is what did we win, while yours is what you did not loose. 2 different statements, so unable to compare.

Sorry to butt in, but reading this almost made my brain explode. You can compare them if you're logical.

double negation
— n
LOGIC: the principle that a statement is equivalent to the denial of its negation, as "it is not the case that John is not here" meaning "John is here"

"Equivalent" is the key word, meaning both posts mean the same thing.

In that case, I'll have to play devil's advocate just for the sake of arguing.

Your logic only applies when there are only 2 possibilities to a certain thing. Then, by denying one possibility, you in fact claim the other.

Challenges can be won, lost or tied. That makes 3 possibilities. Negating one ("I did not lose") is not the equivalent of claiming another ("I won"), as a 3rd possibility is still there.

This is not what Josko tried to say (his idea was that "not losing to top 5 clans during a year" can be simply achieved by "not playing top 5 clans during a year", while "beating top 5 clans during a year" is a whole different monster), but I felt like discussing it anyway.

main point of my post is unable to compare. if TOFU says that they never lost more games than won in clan war and TFFS says that they never lost clan war, would you say that TOFU's and TFFS's performance is the same?

from the other side TOFU may say "we won vs AoC, BOTM, T4C..." and TFFS may say "we won vs GR" and then it can be compared.

so, I wanted to say that, for comparing achievements, negation need to be compared with negation and confirmation need to be compared with confirmation and then some conclusions may be done. with comparing negation vs confirmation it cannot be done some conclusions.

example:
TOFU say "we won vs AoC, BOTM, T4C..."
TFFS say "we never lost clan war"

or
TOFU say "we never lost more games than won in clan war"
TFFS say "we won vs GR"

from these 2 comparisons no conclusions can be done, so comparing negation vs confirmation is not valid.

[josko.ri]

and it is true, I also mentioned negation in my post, but not every statement in my post has the same importance. as not everyone can see level of importance of my statements, I will add font height to achievements (the biggest letter = the highest importance)

josko.ri wrote:
KORT never lost valid War, and never lost any challenge (regardless on number of games in challenge, even when it was 18) in whole 10 months period. in that period we won (in smaller or bigger war) vs THOTA TOFU TSM LOW EMPIRE

so now the ones who thought that all statements written above have the same importance may see which ones have higher importance and which ones have lower importance IMO.

[Master Fenrir]

Some interesting stuff.

Well, the main point of my post wasn't that they were exactly equivalent, but at least close enough to be comparable. But since we're playing devil's advocate...

Wars:

• A War must be of a minimum 41 games, and must have a specific defined process for determining a winner, prior to the start of the War...

Official wars no longer provide for that 3rd possibility. I understand Josko's and CoF were referring to the past when this rule wasn't applied, but to the best of my knowledge, in the one-year time period that Josko mentioned, neither clan tied anybody, so the 3rd option doesn't really effect the logic.

comparing negation vs confirmation is not valid.

Logic says you're wrong, not me. I just happen to be logical.

Anyways, congrats to Kort for the victory. And hats off to THOTA for being good sports about.

[Rodion]

Master Fenrir, even if you rule ties out I can make the same (more than 2 possibilities) case.

I can say THOTA never lost to TOFU (as they didn't play one another), but that does not equate a claim that THOTA has indeed defeated TOFU.

Josko was simply trying to explain how negations aren't really a good parameter for determining clan strength (I think all of this started when Chuuuuck disputed mkcummins' claim that KoRT had become "the team to beat"). I had also said in my previous post that not losing to a top 5 clan can be easily achieved by not playing against a top 5 clan. In the end, Josko just tried to make a pretty plausible case that afirmations were a better parameter for comparison than negations, and you tried to turn it into a sophisma.

[Rodion]

I'd also like to add that I honestly couldn't care less about the position of my clan in rankings. I don't plan on advocating on why KoRT should be #1 (or anything similar) in the near future (and, hopefully, never).

I wouldn't feel bad, for instance, if KoRT ends up winning CL3 and CC2 and end of year rankings leave us outside the top 10. I would not complain.

The one "bad" thing about that would be having a harder schedule on future competitions, but I guess I could live with that.

[Master Fenrir]

I'm just gonna send you a PM Rodion so as not to derail the thread.

[Dako]

Oh come on. At least that thread got some sensible posts in the last 2 pages.... Don't do the PMs, they are bad, haven't your mom told you?

[comic boy]

Eh? Then what's this statement:

josko.ri wrote:
KORT never lost valid War, and never lost any challenge (regardless on number of games in challenge, even when it was 18) in whole 10 months period. in that period we won (in smaller or bigger war) vs THOTA TOFU TSM LOW EMPIRE

As I say, we went 20 months. Plus my dick's bigger than yours.

Oh Si you better not wander into the horsey stables , be months before you stop sobbing

[InsomniaRed]

Eh? Then what's this statement:

josko.ri wrote:
KORT never lost valid War, and never lost any challenge (regardless on number of games in challenge, even when it was 18) in whole 10 months period. in that period we won (in smaller or bigger war) vs THOTA TOFU TSM LOW EMPIRE

As I say, we went 20 months. Plus my dick's bigger than yours.

Oh Si you better not wander into the horsey stables , be months before you stop sobbing

Tears of joy, no means yes, etc. etc.

[Chuuuuck]

Haha, Wow guys. I am very sorry for posting and getting this going again. Although it isn't as heated as in the past. Some pretty logical discussion.

Anyway, this did not get started with me arguing the fact that KoRT isn't the team to beat. I actually think they are the team to beat and look forward to the chance to do just that. Mkcummins stated that KoRT knocked off the only clan left undefeated and I made a simple statement that it is my OPINION that statement is false because of the FACT they have never lost more games than they have won in what constitutes an official clan war.

Nothing in what I was saying has anything to do with KoRT's stats or belittles their accomplishments whatsoever, as I feel they have done very well. I am just pointing out that I still feel there is an undefeated clan out there when it comes down to game play. But yes, as far as conqueror's cup is concerned, KoRT was the winner of the semi finals matchup and the winner of the competition and congratulations to them for that.

[Rodion]

Anyway, this did not get started with me arguing the fact that KoRT isn't the team to beat. I actually think they are the team to beat and look forward to the chance to do just that. Mkcummins stated that KoRT knocked off the only clan left undefeated and I made a simple statement that it is my OPINION that statement is false because of the FACT they have never lost more games than they have won in what constitutes an official clan war.

Oh, I read your reply again and now I understood the part you disputed.

I apologize for my wrong interpretation!

[Ace Rimmer]

Oh come on. At least that thread got some sensible posts in the last 2 pages.... Don't do the PMs, they are bad, haven't your mom told you?

It's ok as long as he doesn't PM another mod. That's when it gets tricky.

[Dako]

He can PM me and I will repost it here :).

[Rodion]

You wouldn't really enjoy the content of the PMs: the interchange has been polite and drama free.

[sonicsteve]

With the asian flag you got, CoF, you'll be facing an uphill battle in proving your last statement.

So racism is acceptable in your clan now? What a bunch.

[Rodion]

With the asian flag you got, CoF, you'll be facing an uphill battle in proving your last statement.

So racism is acceptable in your clan now? What a bunch.

Excuse me, are you being serious?

[Chuuuuck]

With the asian flag you got, CoF, you'll be facing an uphill battle in proving your last statement.

So racism is acceptable in your clan now? What a bunch.

Steve, I would classify that as stereotyping and not necessarily racism. He didn't make a statement about any particular hatred or dislike for the group.

[Dako]

Am I the only one that sees only sarcasm there? Looks like it is hard to distinguish it when the person doesn't put smilies.

[Leehar]

Am I the only one that sees only sarcasm there? Looks like it is hard to distinguish it when the person doesn't put smilies.

Stop trying to dampen tensions, it was just starting to get interesting after all those double posts in the last couple of pages.
Moar drama while we await the thread title being updated
(Or wait, has the win #31 for kort actually finished yet?)

[Rodion]

Am I the only one that sees only sarcasm there? Looks like it is hard to distinguish it when the person doesn't put smilies.

Stop trying to dampen tensions, it was just starting to get interesting after all those double posts in the last couple of pages.
Moar drama while we await the thread title being updated
(Or wait, has the win #31 for kort actually finished yet?)

26-32 with WWII Europe quads and Hive triples to go.