Sweeney Todd Mafia ~ Town Wins. Ready to be Archived

[naxus]

Lucy doesn't fit as a watcher from the character description I just read.

Unvote for now but need some with more knowledge on the subject to voice in

[DoomYoshi]

She is the first one to notice the smoke rising from the house where they are cooking people into pies. It makes sense that she watches people's houses.

[naxus]

I unvoted but I'm inexperienced in this subject

[ShaggyDan]

Wow, not only did I miss the joke vote stage but we're already at a claim . I had a nice little joke vote sentence planned out as well.

Lucy as a Watcher could work, in the movie she's basically a street urchin and very un-noticed by everyone.

[edocsil]

Also balance>realism, claim sounds good till proven otherwise. Nice job their boys with the insta bandwagon on a investigative role. At least it isn't the doc.

[safariguy5]

Since deadline is on Friday, I thought we should get down to business as soon as we can.

Here are the characters I can think of from the movie

1. Sweeney Todd- Probaby SKer
2. Mrs. Lovett- Pie maker per game mechanic, could be masoned with Sweeney Todd
3. Toby- Not sure...
4. Pirelli- Could be locator, looking for Todd
5. Judge Turpin- Could be investigative role/cop
6. Beadle Bamford- roleblocker?
7. Beggar woman/Lucy- Could be some sort of hidden lover (i.e. Todd dies if she does)
8. Anthony Hope- Maybe Lover with Johanna
9. Johanna- Maybe lover with Anthony
10. Fogg- Could be jailkeeper
11. ??? Could be Todd's alter ego, not sure who would be left.

There are a few problems with the list. The mafia is likely to be Turpin, Beadle and possiby Pirelli as they are the 'villains'. Or another possibility for the third mafia is the asylum owner (Fogg?). Sweeney Todd is more likely Vig than SK.

Where are their killing abilities going to come from? Remember Todd basically declared war on everybody, so him being some sort of SKer makes the most sense. Remember, in an 11 man game, we might not have a traditional mafia. And 3 men as mafia in 11 players is too much.

unvote vote DoomYoshi

3 out of 11? Isn't that exactly what the setup was for BttF mafia? vote safariguy5 for blatantly lying. So you are suggesting that the mafia don't get a kill because they don't kill anyone in the musical?

Soooooo tempted to do a a quick D1 hammer just for fun. Likely a bad idea. So with only a week for a day to we force him to claim or not? It is mostly joke votes, but idk, there was some evidence in there.....

such as...

If you count my vote(which squirell missed, then dooms is at L-1)

He might as well claim, that or someone unvote to avoid accidental hammer

Ok, I am the town screw you guys for putting me at L-1; better known as the watcher. My character is Lucy.

Did you consider that Todd as SKer and Lovett and maybe Toby helping him consists of the anti town faction. Town here being the London town.

And here's the thing, most of the characters are obviously aligned against Todd, which would make Turpin and Beadle unlikely as mafia as it would emcompass Pirelli and Fogg and make mafia much too large. If you are lucy and claimed town, then why would you automatically assume that Turpin and the Beadle are mafia? Clearly, Lucy doesn't figure into the town equation too much if you are claiming to be somehow connected to Todd.

It's like Tarantino for goodness sakes, everyone's a bad guy, but the numbers have to shake out to dictate one side as mafia. Todd and Lovett and perhaps one other person probably constitute the anti town faction whether it is mafia in a true sense or as I suspect Todd as a masoned SKer. The difference being that mafia can continue to kill if we get rid of Todd while if he's an SKer, the NK's should stop once we get rid of him.

As for the roleclaim, I think it's definitely possible that Lucy is a watcher, but I doubt her town alignment, could be third party survivor, but just about everyone (including Todd and Anthony) look down upon her.

[TheSaxlad]

I agree. Lucy could just as well be third party with her own agenda if she was a street urchin then could she be wanting to get her own back on anyone? would A. be likely the way people have described her as being looked down upon? and B. it would make her more likely to be 3rd party...

Im not sure just yet.

unvote

just so that vioIet doesnt pie me (jk!!!!).

on a more serious note voting doom now will just make me look scummy so he warrants an FOS. Where to go from here?

(Sorry I havent been more active, I will be after Whac-a-mod..)

[Haggis_McMutton]

WHAT. THE. f*ck. happened here? ...

Wow, I've never seen shit like this.

First of all unvote

So let's see, safari posts a character list and starts some favour speculation. Ok, fair enough at the beginning of D1, though since we don't have an inexperienced mod on our hands I very much doubt we'll be able to pin-point the set-up that easily.

Then, the fun starts:

Since deadline is on Friday, I thought we should get down to business as soon as we can.

Here are the characters I can think of from the movie

1. Sweeney Todd- Probaby SKer
2. Mrs. Lovett- Pie maker per game mechanic, could be masoned with Sweeney Todd
3. Toby- Not sure...
4. Pirelli- Could be locator, looking for Todd
5. Judge Turpin- Could be investigative role/cop
6. Beadle Bamford- roleblocker?
7. Beggar woman/Lucy- Could be some sort of hidden lover (i.e. Todd dies if she does)
8. Anthony Hope- Maybe Lover with Johanna
9. Johanna- Maybe lover with Anthony
10. Fogg- Could be jailkeeper
11. ??? Could be Todd's alter ego, not sure who would be left.

There are a few problems with the list. The mafia is likely to be Turpin, Beadle and possiby Pirelli as they are the 'villains'. Or another possibility for the third mafia is the asylum owner (Fogg?). Sweeney Todd is more likely Vig than SK.

Where are their killing abilities going to come from? Remember Todd basically declared war on everybody, so him being some sort of SKer makes the most sense. Remember, in an 11 man game, we might not have a traditional mafia. And 3 men as mafia in 11 players is too much.

unvote vote DoomYoshi

Dude, did you just put him at L-1 because he disagreed with your flavour speculation?

Soooooo tempted to do a a quick D1 hammer just for fun. Likely a bad idea. So with only a week for a day to we force him to claim or not? It is mostly joke votes, but idk, there was some evidence in there.....

Seriously? What evidence?
I read this as: "Holy shit, someone's at L-1 already. I need to pressure a claim in such a way that I can later distance myself from the waggon."
This is not the reaction I expect from an experienced player in such a situation.

If you count my vote(which squirell missed, then dooms is at L-1)

He might as well claim, that or someone unvote to avoid accidental hammer

aaand another one. Following edoc's lead? your vote is a JOKE VOTE, how about YOU UNVOTE?

Agreed with most, but I'm 95% sure that Judge Turpin is not going to be a pro-town role.

et tu, Commander? no comment on the damn elephant in the room?

And 3 men as mafia in 11 players is too much.

unvote vote DoomYoshi

3 out of 11? Isn't that exactly what the setup was for BttF mafia?

Good point. Safari?

Lucy doesn't fit as a watcher from the character description I just read.

Unvote for now but need some with more knowledge on the subject to voice in

read as: "Woo, we got an investigative role. Well, there's no way in hell we'll get away with a lynch on this waggon, so now's the time to jump off".

Also balance>realism, claim sounds good till proven otherwise. Nice job their boys with the insta bandwagon on a investigative role. At least it isn't the doc.

read as "claim done, begin distancing from waggon". How about you pointing out how shitty this waggon is in your previous post, y'know, before the claim?

Did you consider that Todd as SKer and Lovett and maybe Toby helping him consists of the anti town faction. Town here being the London town.

And here's the thing, most of the characters are obviously aligned against Todd, which would make Turpin and Beadle unlikely as mafia as it would emcompass Pirelli and Fogg and make mafia much too large. If you are lucy and claimed town, then why would you automatically assume that Turpin and the Beadle are mafia? Clearly, Lucy doesn't figure into the town equation too much if you are claiming to be somehow connected to Todd.

It's like Tarantino for goodness sakes, everyone's a bad guy, but the numbers have to shake out to dictate one side as mafia. Todd and Lovett and perhaps one other person probably constitute the anti town faction whether it is mafia in a true sense or as I suspect Todd as a masoned SKer. The difference being that mafia can continue to kill if we get rid of Todd while if he's an SKer, the NK's should stop once we get rid of him.

As for the roleclaim, I think it's definitely possible that Lucy is a watcher, but I doubt her town alignment, could be third party survivor, but just about everyone (including Todd and Anthony) look down upon her.

Ah, some more lovely flavour speculation.

God, I'm starting to sound like Knox with condemning the flavour spec but this is ridiculous.

Just so I get this straight. You jump on a joke waggon, put yoshi at L-1 for flavour spec, force a claim. He claims watcher and now you're actually still supporting his lynch based SOLELY on flavour spec? ...

This is just unreal ...
In my oppinion, ANY of these actions by you four are case-worthy. To have all 4 of them at the same time is just ... is this a prank or what? ...

Guess I'll go with vote safari for starting this thing, the 3 out of 11 comment and still pushing for it.

[Commander9]

A quick note from me: "It's that time of year again - my finals. I'll try to post, but don't be shocked if that doesn't happen during this week. Furthermore, I am also sick rather badly, so I'm going to try to stay away from the computer as much as I can." If mods feel that they want to replace me, I will fully understand it and I will not budge. Thank you for understanding.

[safariguy5]

WHAT. THE. f*ck. happened here? ...

Wow, I've never seen shit like this.

First of all unvote

So let's see, safari posts a character list and starts some favour speculation. Ok, fair enough at the beginning of D1, though since we don't have an inexperienced mod on our hands I very much doubt we'll be able to pin-point the set-up that easily.

Then, the fun starts:

Since deadline is on Friday, I thought we should get down to business as soon as we can.

Here are the characters I can think of from the movie

1. Sweeney Todd- Probaby SKer
2. Mrs. Lovett- Pie maker per game mechanic, could be masoned with Sweeney Todd
3. Toby- Not sure...
4. Pirelli- Could be locator, looking for Todd
5. Judge Turpin- Could be investigative role/cop
6. Beadle Bamford- roleblocker?
7. Beggar woman/Lucy- Could be some sort of hidden lover (i.e. Todd dies if she does)
8. Anthony Hope- Maybe Lover with Johanna
9. Johanna- Maybe lover with Anthony
10. Fogg- Could be jailkeeper
11. ??? Could be Todd's alter ego, not sure who would be left.

There are a few problems with the list. The mafia is likely to be Turpin, Beadle and possiby Pirelli as they are the 'villains'. Or another possibility for the third mafia is the asylum owner (Fogg?). Sweeney Todd is more likely Vig than SK.

Where are their killing abilities going to come from? Remember Todd basically declared war on everybody, so him being some sort of SKer makes the most sense. Remember, in an 11 man game, we might not have a traditional mafia. And 3 men as mafia in 11 players is too much.

unvote vote DoomYoshi

Dude, did you just put him at L-1 because he disagreed with your flavour speculation?

Soooooo tempted to do a a quick D1 hammer just for fun. Likely a bad idea. So with only a week for a day to we force him to claim or not? It is mostly joke votes, but idk, there was some evidence in there.....

Seriously? What evidence?
I read this as: "Holy shit, someone's at L-1 already. I need to pressure a claim in such a way that I can later distance myself from the waggon."
This is not the reaction I expect from an experienced player in such a situation.

If you count my vote(which squirell missed, then dooms is at L-1)

He might as well claim, that or someone unvote to avoid accidental hammer

aaand another one. Following edoc's lead? your vote is a JOKE VOTE, how about YOU UNVOTE?

Agreed with most, but I'm 95% sure that Judge Turpin is not going to be a pro-town role.

et tu, Commander? no comment on the damn elephant in the room?

And 3 men as mafia in 11 players is too much.

unvote vote DoomYoshi

3 out of 11? Isn't that exactly what the setup was for BttF mafia?

Good point. Safari?

Lucy doesn't fit as a watcher from the character description I just read.

Unvote for now but need some with more knowledge on the subject to voice in

read as: "Woo, we got an investigative role. Well, there's no way in hell we'll get away with a lynch on this waggon, so now's the time to jump off".

Also balance>realism, claim sounds good till proven otherwise. Nice job their boys with the insta bandwagon on a investigative role. At least it isn't the doc.

read as "claim done, begin distancing from waggon". How about you pointing out how shitty this waggon is in your previous post, y'know, before the claim?

Did you consider that Todd as SKer and Lovett and maybe Toby helping him consists of the anti town faction. Town here being the London town.

And here's the thing, most of the characters are obviously aligned against Todd, which would make Turpin and Beadle unlikely as mafia as it would emcompass Pirelli and Fogg and make mafia much too large. If you are lucy and claimed town, then why would you automatically assume that Turpin and the Beadle are mafia? Clearly, Lucy doesn't figure into the town equation too much if you are claiming to be somehow connected to Todd.

It's like Tarantino for goodness sakes, everyone's a bad guy, but the numbers have to shake out to dictate one side as mafia. Todd and Lovett and perhaps one other person probably constitute the anti town faction whether it is mafia in a true sense or as I suspect Todd as a masoned SKer. The difference being that mafia can continue to kill if we get rid of Todd while if he's an SKer, the NK's should stop once we get rid of him.

As for the roleclaim, I think it's definitely possible that Lucy is a watcher, but I doubt her town alignment, could be third party survivor, but just about everyone (including Todd and Anthony) look down upon her.

Ah, some more lovely flavour speculation.

God, I'm starting to sound like Knox with condemning the flavour spec but this is ridiculous.

Just so I get this straight. You jump on a joke waggon, put yoshi at L-1 for flavour spec, force a claim. He claims watcher and now you're actually still supporting his lynch based SOLELY on flavour spec? ...

This is just unreal ...
In my oppinion, ANY of these actions by you four are case-worthy. To have all 4 of them at the same time is just ... is this a prank or what? ...

Guess I'll go with vote safari for starting this thing, the 3 out of 11 comment and still pushing for it.

I didn't jump on the joke wagon because of trumped up reasons. If you're town, then you should know what side you're on. Do the due diligence and look up your role is the least you can do. Now looking at my role, I know what side town is. And clearly that makes Todd and company mafia. Certainly, some of the people on his wagon may be Todd and co. trying to mask their alignment, but for Yoshi to suggest straight up that Todd is town and the Beadle and Judge mafia means that he either didn't do the due diligence or didn't get a town role.

And looking at the lucy role, it's quite possible that she's third party, making a D1 lynch of her not completely a bad idea. That taken together with his comment about who's town justifies a lynch to me.

[DoomYoshi]

Lucy is town, and if she is then it makes sense for Todd to be town.

I didn't have any information in specific regarding Turpin or who mafia is, but if you did then why didn't you share more explicitly?

[safariguy5]

Lucy is town, and if she is then it makes sense for Todd to be town.

I didn't have any information in specific regarding Turpin or who mafia is, but if you did then why didn't you share more explicitly?

Because sharing that information would force me to reveal what role I am, but I assure you, if Lucy is town, there is no way that Sweeney Todd is town, and your continued belief that Todd is town is why I continue to think that you are lying about Lucy being town.

[DoomYoshi]

Lucy is town, and if she is then it makes sense for Todd to be town.

I didn't have any information in specific regarding Turpin or who mafia is, but if you did then why didn't you share more explicitly?

Because sharing that information would force me to reveal what role I am, but I assure you, if Lucy is town, there is no way that Sweeney Todd is town, and your continued belief that Todd is town is why I continue to think that you are lying about Lucy being town.

Why not? This is an unfounded statement.

What continued belief? I have not pressed that point further after you suggested that there is no way for it to be so.

[DoomYoshi]

Lucy is town, and if she is then it makes sense for Todd to be town.

I didn't have any information in specific regarding Turpin or who mafia is, but if you did then why didn't you share more explicitly?

Because sharing that information would force me to reveal what role I am, but I assure you, if Lucy is town, there is no way that Sweeney Todd is town, and your continued belief that Todd is town is why I continue to think that you are lying about Lucy being town.

Why not? This is an unfounded statement.

What continued belief? I have not pressed that point further after you suggested that there is no way for it to be so.

EBWOP: I did say that it makes sense, but I was saying that from a flavor perspective, not that it is necessarily so.

[safariguy5]

Lucy is town, and if she is then it makes sense for Todd to be town.

I didn't have any information in specific regarding Turpin or who mafia is, but if you did then why didn't you share more explicitly?

Because sharing that information would force me to reveal what role I am, but I assure you, if Lucy is town, there is no way that Sweeney Todd is town, and your continued belief that Todd is town is why I continue to think that you are lying about Lucy being town.

Why not? This is an unfounded statement.

What continued belief? I have not pressed that point further after you suggested that there is no way for it to be so.

The statement is not unfounded given my role. I know for a fact that if both Sweeney and my role are town, then we have no mafia.

You just suggested that "it makes sense for Todd to be town". How is that not pressing the point further? Now if you had said, "oh well I was guessing at alignment" then I would have agreed that you weren't pressing the point. Not only are you pressing the point, but your statement is as unfounded as mine is, except that as Lucy, you have no idea as to who may or may not be town as she's an insane beggar woman while my role allows me to know exactly who is going to be town. In fact, I'm pretty sure that these people are town.

1. Turpin
2. Beadle
3. Pirelli
4. Fogg

I won't go and speculate about Anthony and Johanna alignment, may be third party lover survivors.

I'm pretty sure these are anti town
1. Todd
2. Lovett

Toby could go either way.

Again, Lucy could be third party, and might be town, but your statements about Todd possibly be town tells me that you probably aren't a town role although watcher is believable.

[DoomYoshi]

You phrased it incorrectly then. Regardless of what your role is, if Lucy is town then it makes sense for Todd to be town as well. They are both "good guys". I was guessing at alignment, I think Todd is a noble champion and Lucy is his loving wife. Obviously, Mr. Squirrel has a different interpretation of the events than I do.

What is the point of a 3rd Party Watcher? It would be useless unless there was a multiple person third party. Since you are comfortable with flavor speculation, let's decide together who, of all people, I would be aligned with.

[safariguy5]

You phrased it incorrectly then. Regardless of what your role is, if Lucy is town then it makes sense for Todd to be town as well. They are both "good guys". I was guessing at alignment, I think Todd is a noble champion and Lucy is his loving wife. Obviously, Mr. Squirrel has a different interpretation of the events than I do.

What is the point of a 3rd Party Watcher? It would be useless unless there was a multiple person third party. Since you are comfortable with flavor speculation, let's decide together who, of all people, I would be aligned with.

Did you see the movie? Todd kills his wife, finds out Lovett lied to him, throws Lovett in the oven, cries over his wife's body, and then Toby kills Todd. Todd never recognized Lucy until after she was dead.

And Todd as a noble person? He basically killed almost every person who walked into his shop, then had Lovett turn them into meat pies for people to eat. Sure, the sentimental notion is that Todd was a good guy against an evil world, but the truth is that nobody was a good guy in that movie save maybe Anthony, Toby and Johanna, and we have to look at the numbers of who would be town.

[naxus]

Town
1. Turpin
2. Beadle
3. Pirelli
4. Fogg

I won't go and speculate about Anthony and Johanna alignment, may be third party lover survivors.

I'm pretty sure these are anti town
1. Todd
2. Lovett

Toby could go either way.

Again, Lucy could be third party, and might be town, but your statements about Todd possibly be town tells me that you probably aren't a town role although watcher is believable.

That could be it but it could be many different ways.

Anthony and Johanna fit lovers scenario perfectly so almost no question there.

Todd could multiple things. Only one could be town and even then hectic at best
-3rd party SK
-Mafia GF
-Overeager vig(Because of this quote from wiki)

He is indiscriminate about his killings, believing that he is punishing the corrupt aristocracy for their exploitation of those below them, while saving the lower classes from their misery.

Lovett could be a few things. No real good ones.
-If todd is the GF then she could either be a goon/RB(for hiding his bodies)
-Or a mafia traitor because of how she iniatially lies to todd about lucy killing herself
-Or a third party framer or some such.

Turpin and beaddle have a few things too
Turpin
-Could be Mafia GF
-Could be a governor role(With him being a judge)
-Could also be a lyncher
-Maybe be a jailkeepeer but thats a stretch

Beaddle
-could be a RB
-No idea really

fogg could be along the same lines as turpin by running the asylum
Toby could be alot of things also

Basically I agree with safari here that I don't think todd is town. And lucy does seem way more third party than anything. And a third party watcher can be useful in that you can build cases from the background and bring more evidence forward.

[edocsil]

Flavor spec sucks when you are out of the loop, but I just can't watch this movie, I've tried and I just can't do it. Could both of them be bad guys at the same time (turpin and todd) with a some sort of WC that the other must die, and a town caught in the middle? It sounds like a novel setup and seems to fit the flavor you guys are talking about.

[safariguy5]

Flavor spec sucks when you are out of the loop, but I just can't watch this movie, I've tried and I just can't do it. Could both of them be bad guys at the same time (turpin and todd) with a some sort of WC that the other must die, and a town caught in the middle? It sounds like a novel setup and seems to fit the flavor you guys are talking about.

It's possible, but I'm not sure who would comprise town. If we say we have Turpin and the Beadle on one side and Todd and Lovett on the other, town would probably have to comprise of

Anthony
Johanna
Toby
Pirelli (maybe)
maybe Lucy

I'm willing to entertain that idea, but either way, Lucy is far from certain to be a town character as everyone in the movie/play doesn't really pay attention to her.

And if you want a plot rundown, wikipedia has a good summary in the movie entry as well as the play. They are pretty much the same except there's less singing in the movie.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Vote Count

Jonty (2) - edocsil
safariguy (3) - vio, yoshi, haggis
doomedyoshi (3) - victor, commander9, safariguy
saxlad (1) - jonty

6 to lynch
deadline friday

[DoomYoshi]

Did you see the movie? Todd kills his wife, finds out Lovett lied to him, throws Lovett in the oven, cries over his wife's body, and then Toby kills Todd. Todd never recognized Lucy until after she was dead.

If he knew that it was his wife, he wouldn't have killed her. That makes him seem like a Vig, since if the vig knows someone is town, they won't kill them. An SK would feel no remorse. The ideal ending is one in which he realizes it who Lucy is, and doesn't kill her. They then go on to have a happy life. Since this benefits Todd and Lucy, and nobody else, if Lucy is Town then Todd could be town as well.

Saying "since I am Turpin (or Beadle, or whoever you are) Todd can't be town makes sense. Saying "Lucy is town, so Todd can't be" doesn't make sense. You are using faulty logic.

However, I am not entirely sure that I believe you are one of those characters now. It has occured to me that this has become a question of your word against mine. You say that you are town. I say that I am town. If you don't believe me, why should anyone believe you?

[naxus]

He is indiscriminate about his killings, believing that he is punishing the corrupt aristocracy for their exploitation of those below them, while saving the lower classes from their misery.

I dont think hes a vig because of that quote right there. SK's kill everyone, Vigs kill baddies

[DoomYoshi]

He is indiscriminate about his killings, believing that he is punishing the corrupt aristocracy for their exploitation of those below them, while saving the lower classes from their misery.

I dont think hes a vig because of that quote right there. SK's kill everyone, Vigs kill baddies

FIXED

Anyway, Todd probably isn't a Vig due to safariguy's role, not to any inherent flavor evidence.

I could start quoting dictionary about how vigilantes are those who fight corrupt aristocracy and save the lower classes, but I want to move onto something else. unvote

[ShaggyDan]

What is the point of a 3rd Party Watcher? It would be useless unless there was a multiple person third party. Since you are comfortable with flavor speculation, let's decide together who, of all people, I would be aligned with.

If he was indeed 3rd party I very much doubt he would come out and say "Hey! I'm 3rd Party". He would make up a role that was possible to be included and be able to be believed.

Just to throw in my two cents about flavour speculation:

There are 2 assumptions we can know for sure:

1) Todd has the ability to kill.
2) Turpin and Beadle are on the same side, and against Todd.

Other than this we can't really make any factual notices about the setup because there are so many ambiguous characters. Though we do know one of the following three are true for Todd:

1) He's a town vig.
2) He's mafia head.
3) He's a 3rd party serial killer with his own WC.

Personally I don't think it is 1, he ends up killing a lot of town. So that leaves 2 or 3 (either way; bad against town). If he is indeed 3rd party he could possibly be mason'd with Mrs. Lovett and that would leave the Wormtail and Snape as mafia (a.k.a. Turpin and Beadle)

In regards to Lucy; I believe Lucy is not on the same side as Todd. She definitely wouldn't be part of the mafia, which leaves options 2 or 3 for Todd and makes Yoshi's claim true or as a 3rd party survivor. I don't believe that a 3rd party would be given a watcher power and I don't think that a 3rd party survivor would claim an investigative role as a fake power as this puts them at big risk against a mafia kill, so I'm willing to believe Yoshi's claim.

As for my opinion on the whole set-up: I believe Todd is a 3rd party killer (possibly with Lovett) and Beadle/Turpin are mafia. Which leaves the set-up (as we know it) as: 2 mafia, 1 (or 2) 3rd party killers, and 8 (or 7) town. We can't really tell until we get a flip or two though.

Ultimately though; I would much rather base my voting off people's behaviour than flavour speculation (especially with so many morally ambiguous characters in this set up):

The fact that we reached L-1 and a claim so early into D1 I really don't agree with and I believe it's a safe assumption that 1 or more anti-town were pushing the wagon. So lets look at the votes:

Naxus: Clearly a joke vote.
Haggis: Clearly a joke vote.
Victor: Quick follow of Haggus, looks like a joke vote, though still slightly suspiscious it happened so fast.
Commander: Also jumps on the wagon to put him at L-2. Definitely scummier than victor.
SafariGuy: Puts him at L-1 because of a disagreeance of flavour. A silly reason at best. And a ridiculous time to put someone at L-1.

I think Yoshi didn't really have to claim in this situation as it is largely unfounded and if anyone hammered then we would have had a sure-fire scum. But I can understand his reasons for wanting to stay alive.

More on safariguy:

Now looking at my role, I know what side town is. And clearly that makes Todd and company mafia.

Despite Todd being able to kill, I really find it hard to believe that Turpin/Beadle are town alligned. It is definitely possible, but in my opinion unlikely. The impression that I got from your posts is that you are claiming Turpin / Beadle, which means you could be trying to capatilise on an ambiguous set up. Which means either I am completely wrong (I may have interpreted your posts wrong, if so I apologise), or you are doing a very bold gambit.

I'm willing to entertain that idea, but either way, Lucy is far from certain to be a town character as everyone in the movie/play doesn't really pay attention to her.

Despite no-one paying attention to her I believe she is definitely against Turpin and as she is killed by Todd I assume she is not alligned with him. If I believe both these characters not to be part of town, this leaves her as a member of town (as I don't think there'd be that many 3rd parties). Despite no-one paying attention to her I believe she's town. As an investigative role I imagine that maf/killers will be on her tonight, if we agree that she's a suspiscious 3rd party role we could always agree for doc not to be on her? Though personally I would disagree with this as I believe she actually is town.

So anyway a nice big FOS on Commander for propelling a joke-wagon forward early on and I shall Vote SafariGuy for going to a very early L-1 and claim and for the reasons above.

Also, Yoshi, why the unvote?