[Abandoned] Alamo

[tkr4lf]

No, I haven't. I know nothing about xml so I cannot do it. GeneralHead wanted to put me on since I contributed with ideas.

I told him it wasn't necessary and that he would need somebody to do the xml, but he wanted to do it anyway. I'm not really quite sure why I'm on there when others have helped just as much, but there you have it.

[generalhead]

tkr4lf has been put on the map do to game play development. . I mainly have worked on graphics and Tk came up with most of the game play. He has helped make this map what it is. Koontz deserved just as much credit because of his involvement. I know Koontz has created his own maps and will be creating more. I wanted to give Tk the opportunity to get his name on a map due to his development on this map plus his input on other maps in the foundry. Koontz explained to me that TK might not be able to receive a medal for just game play development. I will be attempting the coding of the map myself. i have read through the xml tutorials and feel comfortable attempting the task. I have taken a programming class when I was in high school and hope this will aid me in the xml. Should I start coding now or wait until further approval. Thanks for your input

[koontz1973]

GH, leave the xml alone for now. You have a long long way to go. Sorry, got tied up yesterday (literally).

Will get your look over done today.

[generalhead]

I added some shadowing

Click image to enlarge.

I might try a shadow on the people, but if I do it will be tomorrow or the next day.

[generalhead]

Wow, this has really progressed quite a bit since I last saw it...Very nice.

Thanks tk

The walls are much clearer now, they look good.

Thanks to the "Boss Man"

Did you decide to scrap the palisade idea? If so, I understand why, they will be hard to make look good. I think it works either way, it doesn't have to be 100% historically accurate.

the palisades are still there, they are the wall with out the concrete look to them.

I like the addition of the ladders. It would make sense for them to be 1-way attacks into the Alamo, I would think. If you agree, this would need to be indicated on the map somewhere.

That is a really cool idea, my only concern would be for game play if that would isolate that side of the board to much and give some one an easy bonus. What does every one think on this?

The map is nice and clear, the gameplay is clear, all in all, everything looks much, much better than it did when I saw this last week. Sorry it took so long for me to respond, I've been busy and not on CC as much lately. But I will comment some more when you make another update. Keep up the good work!

ty, tk. We all have our own personal lives. Wives, kids, work, rest that can be more important than CC. I would never blame any one for slowing their play or taking a break, as long as they don't leave all together. Then I would be upset!just kidding.

[Seamus76]

I like the little shadows. Looking good.

- You need to make the targets for the cannons larger, and change some of the colors so they are more differentiated.
- The abbreviation for Saloon needs an L in the legend.
- Color is misspelled in the legend, and Bombards should be capitalized.
- Covent Yard in the legend should be Convent Yard.
- This is prob more for the next round, but I'm not a fan of the bridges. They don't look like what I would expect a bridge to look like.
- I also still think the tert borders are a little too chaotic and all over the place. It's a good use of paths, but I'm not sure you need them to be so curvy. Especially within the alamo I would rather it be more square-ish, or "room-ish"

Also, sorry if it has been discussed, but what's the deal with the saloon? Why is it -1?

[generalhead]

I like the little shadows. Looking good.

Ty

- You need to make the targets for the cannons larger, and change some of the colors so they are more differentiated.

I had them bigger in previous maps, but they didn't look as clean big. I will see what others say about the size and try a few different things. I agree about the colors. I need to change some of them.

- The abbreviation for Saloon needs an L in the legend.

Ya, in previous maps I had it as Sal. I lost an l some where, I will have to put it back in

- Color is misspelled in the legend, and Bombards should be capitalized.

10-4 ty

- Covent Yard in the legend should be Convent Yard.

10-4 ty

- This is prob more for the next round, but I'm not a fan of the bridges. They don't look like what I would expect a bridge to look like.

I tried some older looking log bridges, but with the size the logs looked horrible. I will keep searching to see what I can find.

- I also still think the tert borders are a little too chaotic and all over the place. It's a good use of paths, but I'm not sure you need them to be so curvy. Especially within the alamo I would rather it be more square-ish, or "room-ish"

I don't have a preference on this. I will see what some other people say on this.

Also, sorry if it has been discussed, but what's the deal with the saloon? Why is it -1?

It has not been discussed. In the John Wayne movie the Alamo the soldiers would get drunk and get into fights in the saloon. So I figured if you had
armies in the saloon they would be getting drunk and fighting amongst themselves. If others feel that this should not be though I don't feel that strongly about it to not change it.

[Seamus76]

I can definitely help you with the targets. Just let me know if something like Sa6 would work for you and I can help you out. Also anything else I can help with would be my pleasure.

Click image to enlarge.

[generalhead]

I can definitely help you with the targets. Just let me know if something like Sa6 would work for you and I can help you out. Also anything else I can help with would be my pleasure.

Wow! That definitely looks way better. You are awesome. Could you post that by itself with out the highlight so I can steal it?
Thanks buddy!

[Seamus76]

It would be my pleasure, sent you a PM.

[koontz1973]

GH, had a look over the map and it has come a very long way since you posted your earliest draft. And for that I applaud you. This is not easy, especially when it is your first map and trying to learn new things. Here is a list, not a final list but a list of things that you really need to look at sooner rather than later.

Legends: You have done a good job on these but now they look bare. Try to flesh them out some. But put all text relating to bonuses together. How about a few words on the story under the title. Honestly, I know nothing about this battle and I am sure others do not.

Territory lines: These right now are awful. You have a sense of how to get them done but now they need to be done right. You have some that look to be copy and paste jobs, others that are straight whilst others have a curve to them. Even worse is that some are not clear. Can Crocket attack Bo4? Look at your chapel and try to get the rest like them. Only two lines but drawn with a fluid style that works well. You can use the straight ones for door ways only.

Texture: You till need to find one and place this under your background art. Then lower the opacity of the ground layers so you can see the texture starting to come through.

Shadows: Under the bridges, get rid of these. You have made them float above ground. Add them to the men and cannons though.

River: Now this really bugs me more than anything else on the map. Look by Romero. You have the river then a bank before the walls of the fort. Mo2, Sa3, Du4, in these places, it looks like the river goes under the walls. Give these areas a bank as well.

Glows: You now have a glow around the men in the picture. Give them each a different one and colour the areas under their command the same colour.

Thats is all for now. You are getting their GH, and I look forward to stamping this. You remind me of me 2 years ago when I was doing Rorke's Drift. Keep at it and keep learning. Every time you post, it gets better and better.

[DoomYoshi]

Also, sorry if it has been discussed, but what's the deal with the saloon? Why is it -1?

It has not been discussed. In the John Wayne movie the Alamo the soldiers would get drunk and get into fights in the saloon. So I figured if you had
armies in the saloon they would be getting drunk and fighting amongst themselves. If others feel that this should not be though I don't feel that strongly about it to not change it.

there is not a single scene in The Alamo which corresponds to a historically verifiable incident

You shouldn't use that movie as a reference, if you do then:
Peewee Herman should be on this map.

The main thing is that the battle took place pre-dawn, so nobody was at the saloon, since it was the first time they got to sleep in a while.

More seriously, it doesn't make sense that a cannon in the middle of the building, not connected to any walls (and therefore not connected to windows) can bombard anything. Also, RO2 doesn't have a clear shot to that target either. It needs to be a mortar (instead of a cannon).

EDIT: On second thought, the bombardments don't make any sense at all. If the cannons can bombard into a building, there will be structural damage to the walls, and the walls should not serve as barriers to attack.

Finally, why is there a moat on this map? Ok, I researched this one: there was a ditch that was 2 men wide, called a moat, but it wasn't necessarily filled with water (at least I can't find any evidence).

[Seamus76]

by DoomYoshi on Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:39 pm
Peewee Herman should be on this map.

That was one of my first thoughts too...where's the basement? lol

[generalhead]

All great information. Thanks guys, keep it coming. I should have time Friday and Saturday to start addressing all of these.

[tkr4lf]

More seriously, it doesn't make sense that a cannon in the middle of the building, not connected to any walls (and therefore not connected to windows) can bombard anything. Also, RO2 doesn't have a clear shot to that target either. It needs to be a mortar (instead of a cannon).

This is a good point. Generalhead, perhaps consider moving the cannon at CR1 to CR2.

I don't agree about the mortar over the cannon, as there were no mortars at the fort.

EDIT: On second thought, the bombardments don't make any sense at all. If the cannons can bombard into a building, there will be structural damage to the walls, and the walls should not serve as barriers to attack.

This I don't agree with. While it's perhaps more realistic, I don't think it would be good for gameplay. But even the realism aspect is debatable. Cannons can easily fire over walls to hit whatever is inside.

As for gameplay, it makes sense to have the walls of the fort be impassable at the start of the battle, and it would be difficult to make the impassables go away mid game, if even possible with xml.

I say leave it the way it is, gameplay trumps realism every time.

Finally, why is there a moat on this map? Ok, I researched this one: there was a ditch that was 2 men wide, called a moat, but it wasn't necessarily filled with water (at least I can't find any evidence).

This has been discussed previously. All of the maps show that the river really does run like that, so it's pretty realistic the way it is.


DoomYoshi did have some good points about the Saloon, though. So maybe just changing it to a +1 bonus for holding it would make more sense.



As for your shadows under the cannons Generalhead, can you try reducing the opacity a little bit? It looks odd to me with the color being so prominent, especially the big yellow shadow underneath the cannon at Cr1 and Ro2. The one at Sa5 looks pretty good, perhaps trying to get them all to look more like that one would be better.

Looking good though, it's definitely improving. Keep up the good work!

[generalhead]

Yes sir Tk. Thanks for your input. I was thinking about moving the cannon to the west wall and then going with your idea about the one way attack for the ladders. If there are three cannons on that side that might make the one way ladder attack possible for game play. The saloon along with other issues will be addressed this weekend. I don't even know if there was a saloon at the real Alamo. I just get caught up in movies, especially if they are John Wayne movies. Doom Yoshi had a good point about movies not always being accurate though.

[tkr4lf]

Sure, happy to help. Here is some more food for thought.


As far as there being a saloon in the alamo, and the layout in general...here are a few pictures that could be of some use.


This one is kind of hard to see, but has a nice perspective.

Spoiler

This one is especially nice, as it seems to have everything labelled and is nice and clear, as well as having Mexican army locations and directions of their advances, although some of this seems to conflict with the information gained from the wiki article (Romero, Morales, etc.).

Spoiler

If there are three cannons on that side that might make the one way ladder attack possible for game play.

This is a good idea, I think.

You could have the Alamo cannons be able to bombard the ladder positions. You already have Bo3 able to bombard Sa6, so making Cr1 able to bombard Co1 would make sense.

It might even be worth it to make the cannons able to bomb more than just 1 terit. It would make them more valuable, which they truly were in the battle. It might be too much for the gameplay, I'm not sure on that. But it would be cool. Perhaps 2 or 3 different terits that each cannon can bombard. Just a thought.



One additional thought on the Saloon issue...if you're looking to change the name of it, you could make it the hospital, and make it a +1 like the Chapel and the Convent Yard. As you can see in the second picture I posted, the hospital is sort of in between those 2, so it could work to fill that area.





Also, a thought about Bowie's location...I personally think that he shouldn't be located right at the front. By this I mean two different things.

The first, the actual commander shouldn't be right at the entrance to the Alamo, especially since it's an objective and an auto-deploy. I would think that would make it too easy to block off that area of the alamo, or too easy to gain a foothold in the Alamo by taking the commander and just stacking there, using the auto-deploy to boost your stack.

The second is that I think Bowie should be switched with Travis. Travis was at the front of the lines, fighting the Mexicans. He was one of the first to die, actually. Bowie was bed-ridden during the entire fight. So having him near the center of the Alamo would make more sense than on the front lines.


The first is, in my opinion, a pretty important thing. But I would wait and see if anybody else agrees, or if they think it's fine to have that autodeploy right at the entrance/exit to the alamo before changing it.

The second point is far less important, more thematic than anything. So it's not that big of a deal, it would just help to make the map slightly more historically accurate.


This should keep you busy for a bit at least...

[DoomYoshi]

You are 100% right on the first point.

[Seamus76]

It might even be worth it to make the cannons able to bomb more than just 1 terit. It would make them more valuable, which they truly were in the battle. It might be too much for the gameplay, I'm not sure on that. But it would be cool. Perhaps 2 or 3 different terits that each cannon can bombard. Just a thought.

One additional thought on the Saloon issue...if you're looking to change the name of it, you could make it the hospital, and make it a +1 like the Chapel and the Convent Yard. As you can see in the second picture I posted, the hospital is sort of in between those 2, so it could work to fill that area.

I really like both of these. The multiple bombardment locations adds a nice wrinkle, and as stated makes them more valuable. I also think you should lose the Saloon and definitely change it to Hospital. It's more historically accurate, and enhances the theme with the +1 bonus.

[generalhead]

Thank you guys all so much. I will get too work on all of this tonight.

[generalhead]

Are the highlights on the names too much or does the opacity need changed?
Do the legends look better?
I wanted to know what tk thought about the game play on this?
Would it be too much to have the cannons attack more than one territory?

Click image to enlarge.

I need to fix the bridges, I lowered the opacity to see what it would look like, but they are see through now
The big Alamo needs to move to the right a bit
Thank you Seamus for the targets, these look great

[koontz1973]

I am starting to really like how this is going along GH. Next list of things to do then.

Bridges, bring up their opacity. Just joking.

Legend. Top right. All officers Move the +1 auto deploy to a separate line under. Copy the officers one at a time, shrink down and place along side or under or on top. Which ever looks best to you. As long as they are lined up and look nice. The rest of the legend looks nice and everything is clear. Just a matter of spacing it all out nicely. Changing the size of font etc so the legend looks full and does not have dead space.

River, this is a nice size now. I like it as is but the water could do with some love. See what you can do apart from GIMP patterns.

You are right, the glows help, but you have a lot of them. Names, cannon and targets. It might be an idea to reduce the number of cannon but that can be left to the GP mods to discuss with you.

Morales and Travis are the best looking offices, it might help game play if you got rid of the others (do not delete them) and used these two only for all officers. But I will leave that to you to decide now.

[Seamus76]

All the foundry can ask for is to keep getting better, and you are certainly doing that. Couple of quick things:

- The targets look much better, nice work. They do look a little squished though, at the bottom and top. Other wise why not fill the whole target with the color to help bring it out more.
- Speaking of, in my opinion it would look better to have the color of the cannon be the same color as the territories they are in. So, ex., Ro2 would be the same color cannon as Tr3, etc.
- If possible try to have the cannons pointing at their respective targets, unless you go with multiple target locations per cannon, which I like, and then just have them pointed in the middle area of the two, etc.
- The glow on the names are not bad, but try lowering the opacity just a bit, and look at a different color to help distinguish the Ho's from the Sa's. (yeah I said Ho's).
- The legends are looking better, but I think you can lose the ladder part, and just have a cool one-way arrow on the ladders themselves. Like it has been mentioned you'll need to add a little story to the legend, and removing that part will give you more room. If you shrink all of those legend text down you can prob get most of into one section.
- I like the shadows you added to the people, but maybe not have them on the people in the building, which would technically have been covered by a roof.

That's all if have at the moment. Nice work, as usual. Keep it up.

[koontz1973]

Just wanted to post this for you. This is roughly where I was in my first map is where you are now. And this was no where near my final version.

Click image to enlarge.

And here is where Seamus was at just before his stamp. Again, no where near his final map.

Click image to enlarge.

Enjoy our humiliation.

[Seamus76]

Enjoy our humiliation.

So true. lol.