CCup4 Comment Thread

[denominator]

The rules are rules for a reason. They haven't proven they can operate as a single clan yet, and that should be enough. But again, because they are a "top clan", they are being granted special privilege.

Let's say that they are allowed to participate. How will they possibly fit into the mixed seeding/random bracket you have created? You have combined two clans that were, according to the F400 rankings, both in the top 10 but have no possible rank for them together. You have to either bump one "deserving" clan from the top 16 seeded into the random pool, or place the new superclan into the random pool. Either way, it's an unfair situation for everyone.

[Foxglove]

On point 3: Thanks, and I agree. From what I've seen in the past, games whose outcome was clearly changed by a site bug have been happily recreated by both clans(i.e. when very even games were clearly decided by the bug), and I'm optimistic that that will continue to be the case.

I would actually say that statement is definitively not true.

[Chariot of Fire]

I told him he should have edited it, lol

[Foxglove]

I told him he should have edited it, lol

lol. I mean it is what it is - but he shouldn't lie about it.

[Doc_Brown]

On point 3: Thanks, and I agree. From what I've seen in the past, games whose outcome was clearly changed by a site bug have been happily recreated by both clans(i.e. when very even games were clearly decided by the bug), and I'm optimistic that that will continue to be the case.

I would actually say that statement is definitively not true.

It's the "outcome was clearly changed" that I figured still held true.
I mean, I had the VoTK game down as about 75-80% win chance before Pirlo missed a turn, and closer to 90% afterwords. Then it jumped to like 97% with the site bug. I know there are differences of opinion on that game, but did it the bug clearly change the outcome?

We could argue this until the cows come home, and they can't come home now anyway since they choked on a mouthful of TOFU...

Regardless, I probably should not have left the comment in there. It was clearly either meant to be provocative at best or trolling at worst. There are enough headaches and hard feelings surrounding CC4 without me poking the cows as well. So, my apologies for stirring up more trouble.

[Foxglove]

On point 3: Thanks, and I agree. From what I've seen in the past, games whose outcome was clearly changed by a site bug have been happily recreated by both clans(i.e. when very even games were clearly decided by the bug), and I'm optimistic that that will continue to be the case.

I would actually say that statement is definitively not true.

It's the "outcome was clearly changed" that I figured still held true.
I mean, I had the VoTK game down as about 75-80% win chance before Pirlo missed a turn, and closer to 90% afterwords. Then it jumped to like 97% with the site bug. I know there are differences of opinion on that game, but did it the bug clearly change the outcome?

Since you responded, I will as well.

We considered our odds to be 10-20%, knowing our cards, and position, and plan. Are those odds spectacular? Of course not. Nor are they ridiculously low. It was an escalating game. In our opinion we did have a chance to win that game, and with that win potentially tie the results at 30-30 and move into a tie-breaker phase (there are 2 remaining active games - I think we will for sure win Hive, and I think we have a good chance to win Conquer Rome). You guys were in the lead, no doubt. But I think it's only fair that you acknowledge that there was still a chance that we could have won it, if not for the site bug. a 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 chance of winning a game is something that has happened to every player, many, many times.

Regardless, I probably should not have left the comment in there. It was clearly either meant to be provocative at best or trolling at worst. There are enough headaches and hard feelings surrounding CC4 without me poking the cows as well. So, my apologies for stirring up more trouble.

Thank you, and you're right - you probably should have taken it out. But mostly because it's untrue.

[niMic]

The bug changed the outcome from "probable win" to "certain win". To put it into perspective, Conquerman, the final "decider", was a "probable win" for us for a long time. We also won a few games that were even more likely wins for TOFU at some point.

It's CC, things change very quickly.

But the replay didn't happen, for various reasons, and there's no point talking about it now.

[Denise]

can i ask you a simple question when i started aka with time players and the rest of time merged into aka we were not allowed to partake in this event so where is the difference....

The difference is in past conduct, Eddie. This privilege is something the new AoC/Empire clan has earned because of their exemplary past behavior. These guys are long time proven clan leaders. They are not going to bring chaos to the competition as other brand new unproven clans have done. They should absolutely be allowed to compete in CC4.

[chapcrap]

can i ask you a simple question when i started aka with time players and the rest of time merged into aka we were not allowed to partake in this event so where is the difference....

The difference is in past conduct, Eddie. This privilege is something the new AoC/Empire clan has earned because of their exemplary past behavior. These guys are long time proven clan leaders. They are not going to bring chaos to the competition as other brand new unproven clans have done. They should absolutely be allowed to compete in CC4.

I like both former clans, but dropping CL5 is not exemplary.

[eddie2]

can i ask you a simple question when i started aka with time players and the rest of time merged into aka we were not allowed to partake in this event so where is the difference....

The difference is in past conduct, Eddie. This privilege is something the new AoC/Empire clan has earned because of their exemplary past behavior. These guys are long time proven clan leaders. They are not going to bring chaos to the competition as other brand new unproven clans have done. They should absolutely be allowed to compete in CC4.

denise do me a favour. look at my other post and look at the rule for sign up as it was...

complete 1 war
be active 1 month

which have been made easier because it used to be
2 complete wars
3 months active

2 simple rules which have been enforced many a time not just against time but against
the pack
pig renters
wild geese (who did stop being active during the event)
koa
was there any more there have been but i cannot remember off the top of my head.

now think empire aoc had 1 decision to make about this merger if they joined under one of the eligible clans to take part in this event or start a new one...
now
empire would qualify under the rule..
aoc would qualify for under the rule..

agents of empire (which after just looking is not even a active clan yet) do not qualify...

and denise i would understand your post more if you had read earlier where i had told you that i was given the choice of moving all aka players back to time giving us the record to participate and being aloud to take part..

this is the same option aoc empire have join under 1 existing clan and they can enter .dont and they cannot.

i have also asked 1 question to aoc empire how long this discussion went on. joining 2 clans takes a lot of talks and not just a over night thing... So discussions started after cl5 started and they could not wait to announce this till the play in rounds ended making this a fair thing to do. they could of posted saying discussions are underway about a merger but not sure how we are doing it... which would of kept they playing in that event until the league starts not affecting there individual play in groups... then dropped 1 when the league starts which would not of been as much hassle.. but because they have stated dropping both clans for a new one it has made them not qualify for that event so they have been dropped out of it. which should happen here because it was same rules which the clan mods have changed...

you see that is also the same problem i had with the aka time thing in the clan league... when all the players left time to join aka i asked joshy not to remove them so they could finish off the group stages (was also being told i had 2 by clan mods) So i delayed aka starting wars to finish of the first stage. But joshy dropped them from time making time have to forfeit that round of games so we just dropped out. which therefore delayed our war via the pack which in effect made them not eligible for this event.

also i recieved a punishment of not being allowed privs to run wars for 2 months i think it was... so you have also got to ask is this punishment also going to be issued to aoc empire

[Arama86n]

Another thread? Dear god why. Any one with an ambission to keep on top of the CC4 situation will soon have to quit their day-job to have time to read all this crap.

[greenoaks]

can i ask you a simple question when i started aka with time players and the rest of time merged into aka we were not allowed to partake in this event so where is the difference....

The difference is in past conduct, Eddie. This privilege is something the new AoC/Empire clan has earned because of their exemplary past behavior. These guys are long time proven clan leaders. They are not going to bring chaos to the competition as other brand new unproven clans have done. They should absolutely be allowed to compete in CC4.

how come the rules weren't

You must have completed 1 war, unless your behaviour has been exemplary

that would have prevented any confusion

[shoop76]

This privilege is something the new AoC/Empire clan has earned because of their exemplary past behavior.

What if TFFS would have joined with a middle of the pack clan, would this privilege have been given?
Would ATLANTIS have been allowed in if AoC/ Empire had not merged? Or are they just reaping the benefits of the merger?
What happens if the merger hasn't created an official clan by the end of the 2 week sign up period? Everyone will have to wait for that to happen.

I have no problem with rule changes, but these should not happen 2 or 3 weeks before the start of an event.

This has surely already been mentioned, but I don't want to read through everything again, especially with so many contradicting things being said from beginning to end, but will these clans be seeded?

If not I"m sure the draw will be conveniently made where we don't see AoC/Empire facing a top 3 clan in the round of 32.

[chapcrap]

In the sign up thread, would it be possible to order the clans by seed?

[patrickaa317]

can i ask you a simple question when i started aka with time players and the rest of time merged into aka we were not allowed to partake in this event so where is the difference....

The difference is in past conduct, Eddie. This privilege is something the new AoC/Empire clan has earned because of their exemplary past behavior. These guys are long time proven clan leaders. They are not going to bring chaos to the competition as other brand new unproven clans have done. They should absolutely be allowed to compete in CC4.

how come the rules weren't

You must have completed 1 war, unless your behaviour has been exemplary

that would have prevented any confusion

This ^

This privilege is something the new AoC/Empire clan has earned because of their exemplary past behavior.

What if TFFS would have joined with a middle of the pack clan, would this privilege have been given?
Would ATLANTIS have been allowed in if AoC/ Empire had not merged? Or are they just reaping the benefits of the merger?
What happens if the merger hasn't created an official clan by the end of the 2 week sign up period? Everyone will have to wait for that to happen.

I have no problem with rule changes, but these should not happen 2 or 3 weeks before the start of an event.

This has surely already been mentioned, but I don't want to read through everything again, especially with so many contradicting things being said from beginning to end, but will these clans be seeded?

If not I"m sure the draw will be conveniently made where we don't see AoC/Empire facing a top 3 clan in the round of 32.

And this ^

Enough said.

[patrickaa317]

Does everyone here honestly believe that a combined Empire (one of the oldest clans on CC) and AoC (an extremely well established clan) would be unable to function in CCup4?

Are entries on these major clan events typically based on subjective criteria such as whether people think they could function or not? They seem to have not been able to continue to function in CL5... Just sayin.

[Keefie]

Wouldn't it be ironic if top 8 clans drew Agents of Empire and Atlantis in the first round. I can hear the bitching already

[Chariot of Fire]

I'm not prepared to meet them if they haven't been properly ranked on the F400. I have absolutely no qualms with them joining the tourney - what went before was exactly that, 'before', and rules are prone to change to make for a better experience. But two big issues remain for me (and probably my clan, though none of us are actually talking about this at all) which are the ranking/points/seeding of AoE and at what point TOFU & AFOS are expected to join CC4 when there's still a 60 game CC3 final to contest.

[eddie2]

I'm not prepared to meet them if they haven't been properly ranked on the F400. I have absolutely no qualms with them joining the tourney - what went before was exactly that, 'before', and rules are prone to change to make for a better experience. But two big issues remain for me (and probably my clan, though none of us are actually talking about this at all) which are the ranking/points/seeding of AoE and at what point TOFU & AFOS are expected to join CC4 when there's still a 60 game CC3 final to contest.

Stay tuned cof. I am in the middle of creating another cup hopefully will have it posted tonight. It will be fully random with just the basic rules for each challenge (meaning rules to validate medals) each clan will then disguss with opponants the full terms for there war. It will not start until the present ccup3 has finished there will be no seeding and clans will be entered into random org in alphabetical order.

[jetsetwilly]

I'm not prepared to meet them if they haven't been properly ranked on the F400. I have absolutely no qualms with them joining the tourney - what went before was exactly that, 'before', and rules are prone to change to make for a better experience. But two big issues remain for me (and probably my clan, though none of us are actually talking about this at all) which are the ranking/points/seeding of AoE and at what point TOFU & AFOS are expected to join CC4 when there's still a 60 game CC3 final to contest.

As I understand it Icepack currently plans for AOE to use AOC's record as the basis for its F400 position but he would have to confirm.

For AFOS and TOFU, the current expectation is that the likely need for a play in round would mean that they don't need to join the competition immediately which should hopefully remove overlap. If that situation changes then we will look at the best course of action to ensure those clans aren't overloaded. While we are eager to get CC4 underway we would not ignore the fact that an ongoing cup final needs to be respected.

[Swimmerdude99]

Does everyone here honestly believe that a combined Empire (one of the oldest clans on CC) and AoC (an extremely well established clan) would be unable to function in CCup4?

Are entries on these major clan events typically based on subjective criteria such as whether people think they could function or not? They seem to have not been able to continue to function in CL5... Just sayin.

The only reason that we are dropping out of CL5 is because we aren't allowed to be in two clans at once. If we were allowed to finish out CL5 as just Empire or AoC, then I doubt there would be any problem continuing to function in CL5. The reason that I think CC4 should be allowed for the merging group is that if we had just "merged" in the real sense of the word into one clan... we would be allowed in. Its the same clan leadership and mostly players, just under a new banner. Very similar to Atlantis, why they should be allowed is similar in reason. They are a group of players that are distinguished already although they did add some new faces, so both groups are really separate and either one of us could be told not to enter if there were logical reason to not allow it and the other were allowed.

[patrickaa317]

Does everyone here honestly believe that a combined Empire (one of the oldest clans on CC) and AoC (an extremely well established clan) would be unable to function in CCup4?

Are entries on these major clan events typically based on subjective criteria such as whether people think they could function or not? They seem to have not been able to continue to function in CL5... Just sayin.

The only reason that we are dropping out of CL5 is because we aren't allowed to be in two clans at once. If we were allowed to finish out CL5 as just Empire or AoC, then I doubt there would be any problem continuing to function in CL5. The reason that I think CC4 should be allowed for the merging group is that if we had just "merged" in the real sense of the word into one clan... we would be allowed in. Its the same clan leadership and mostly players, just under a new banner. Very similar to Atlantis, why they should be allowed is similar in reason. They are a group of players that are distinguished already although they did add some new faces, so both groups are really separate and either one of us could be told not to enter if there were logical reason to not allow it and the other were allowed.

Thanks for the info, out of all the pages in this thread and a few others, I didn't see it explained like that anywhere though I skimmed through a lot of the crap because it was that, crap.

Still not 100% sure I completely agree with the decisions on all this, though they definitely seem to make more sense with this added information.

[Chariot of Fire]

Couldn't AoE keep the place of AoC in CL5? Can't see why not tbh. If the F400 keeps you on the ranking in AoC's place, you enter CC4 under the pretext of being a merged clan rather than a new clan, then it follows that you could continue in CL5 in AoC's group. Apply the same rule across the board and then there's no contradiction.

[eddie2]

Does everyone here honestly believe that a combined Empire (one of the oldest clans on CC) and AoC (an extremely well established clan) would be unable to function in CCup4?

Are entries on these major clan events typically based on subjective criteria such as whether people think they could function or not? They seem to have not been able to continue to function in CL5... Just sayin.

The only reason that we are dropping out of CL5 is because we aren't allowed to be in two clans at once. If we were allowed to finish out CL5 as just Empire or AoC, then I doubt there would be any problem continuing to function in CL5. The reason that I think CC4 should be allowed for the merging group is that if we had just "merged" in the real sense of the word into one clan... we would be allowed in. Its the same clan leadership and mostly players, just under a new banner. Very similar to Atlantis, why they should be allowed is similar in reason. They are a group of players that are distinguished already although they did add some new faces, so both groups are really separate and either one of us could be told not to enter if there were logical reason to not allow it and the other were allowed.

but it is not the same leadership team is it.. this new clan is going to have leadership of both of the 2 clans.. every clan has its own way of doing things so in effect this could cause a clash between them it could also cause a clash between aoc players and empire players who are set in there own ways of doing it and might not like the change of 2 different leaderships trying to run things the way they are set in doing it.. This is why the wars completed and time functioned as a clan comes into it. To make sure it runs smoothly. At the end of it no other clan has been entitled to getting 1 clans rank when they have split or merged.. Were aka allowed to take on times ranking and stats.

[eddie2]

sorry for double post i am in discussions with certain members of the moderation team regarding another cup that you will be eligible to take part in. If i get the things needed it will be just as big as ccup4 and you will have time to of completed 1 challenge to gain entry.because it will not be starting until ccup3 has ended.
this event will be a fully random draw event every round to be held in live chat on dates to be confirmed.

eligibility

be eligible to join cdf

individual wars

are open for discussion between the 2 clans with these set rules.
no manual
no freestyle
beta will be allowed to help promote the new maps if agreed upon between the 2 clans.
nuclear spoils will be allowed (if this is agreed upon timing out rule will be mandatory)
trench will be allowed (again upon mutual agreement)
map usage (will be decided by the 2 clans taking part.)
each war must qualify for medals.
each war will be made up of 41 games with
51 semi's
61 finals
all clans get half the games (own choice of triples quads doubles)
tie breaker = classic triples foggy chained no spoils .
clans will decide who runs the threads, if this cannot be decided we will use f400 and highest rank runs it.

draw settings and dates

all clans will be placed into random.org in alphabetical order
start date to be confirmed but will be after completion of ccup3
there will be a pm sent to all clan reps 7 days prior to this.

prizes

mvp award

Each round all winning clans will will nominate there MVP with a reason once we have all mvp's for that round it will be posted in the main thread and discussions will happen by live chat users in a private room (/join mvp) all are welcome to join come in and fight your case (of course within live chat rules)

you will be given 7 days notice of discussion happening

reward will be a general contribution medal and 1 month premium (bought by myself)

beta map award

this will be awarded to the clan who wins the most beta maps.

you will receive 12 months premium to split (maybe after discussion with cart department they might issue a additional 12 months.) and general contribution medals for all.(if head of cart department agrees to issue them)

1st 2nd 3rd place

3rd place will receive general achievement medals
2nd place general achievement medals and 12 months premium (can be split up possibility of clan mods or admin rewarding extra.)
1st place general achievement and 24 months premium (same as above if a department head wants to add to this)

player of the event 3 months premium.
best organizer of individual wars 3 months premium.