3rd 1v1 Clan Challenge [ACE WINS!!]

[IcePack]

Noon update. 9 out of 20 rankings received.

[IcePack]

This mornings update. 13 out of 20 rankings received. 7 due by end of today.

Reminder PM sent to clans that haven't submitted.

[IcePack]

Noon (ish) update. All but 3 rankings received.

Waiting on:

MB
TNC
LEG

[IcePack]

Noon (ish) update. All but 3 rankings received.

Waiting on:

MB
TNC
LEG

[IcePack]

Two clans failed to vote, so 17 votes were counted towards seeding. Here is the bracket!

http://challonge.com/1vs1Clan3rd

The higher seeded clan should post in the Active Challenges Area for their war (unless otherwise agreed upon) and matches must be started by Aug 1st, and first games sent out August 5th.

Good luck to all clans involved!

[Keefie]

Well that's thrown up some surprise rankings.

ACE (Empire) who've won this for the last two years only 4th, ATL 9th and Fall 2nd !!!!!!!

[chapcrap]

Well that's thrown up some surprise rankings.

ACE (Empire) who've won this for the last two years only 4th, ATL 9th and Fall 2nd !!!!!!!

I agree. I didn't rank them, but I definitely would have made ACE first and Fallen was out in the first round last year. Probably would have but them 5-6 I think. Good luck to all.

[Keefie]

I totally agree Chap. FYI here are my rankings.

TNC - 11
MD - 12
KNT - 18
MB - 17
VVV - 19
TFFS - 13
FALL - 5
ATN - 15
FISO - 16
WAR - 9
PIG - 6
ACE - 1
KORT - 2
ID - 4
OTP - 7
ATL - 3
OSA - 8
LEG - 10
SOH - 14

[IcePack]

Well that's thrown up some surprise rankings.

ACE (Empire) who've won this for the last two years only 4th, ATL 9th and Fall 2nd !!!!!!!

I agree. I didn't rank them, but I definitely would have made ACE first and Fallen was out in the first round last year. Probably would have but them 5-6 I think. Good luck to all.

I also agree, I ranked both ACE and ATL higher than they ended up. But in the end, I see some pretty interesting match ups in the future

[Keefie]

Well that's thrown up some surprise rankings.

ACE (Empire) who've won this for the last two years only 4th, ATL 9th and Fall 2nd !!!!!!!

I agree. I didn't rank them, but I definitely would have made ACE first and Fallen was out in the first round last year. Probably would have but them 5-6 I think. Good luck to all.

I also agree, I ranked both ACE and ATL higher than they ended up. But in the end, I see some pretty interesting match ups in the future

The potential matches look very interesting indeed. However, I'm left scratching my head at how some Clan Leaders worked out their rankings.

[chapcrap]

I totally agree Chap. FYI here are my rankings.

TNC - 11
MD - 12
KNT - 18
MB - 17
VVV - 19
TFFS - 13
FALL - 5
ATN - 15
FISO - 16
WAR - 9
PIG - 6
ACE - 1
KORT - 2
ID - 4
OTP - 7
ATL - 3
OSA - 8
LEG - 10
SOH - 14

You missed a clan somewhere... I can't really argue much with your rankings.

It'll all be sorted out in a few months though!

[IcePack]

I totally agree Chap. FYI here are my rankings.

TNC - 11
MD - 12
KNT - 18
MB - 17
VVV - 19
TFFS - 13
FALL - 5
ATN - 15
FISO - 16
WAR - 9
PIG - 6
ACE - 1
KORT - 2
ID - 4
OTP - 7
ATL - 3
OSA - 8
LEG - 10
SOH - 14

You missed a clan somewhere... I can't really argue much with your rankings.

It'll all be sorted out in a few months though!

That's because each clan doesn't rank itself. So, his rankings are "missing" HH.

[IcePack]

However, I'm left scratching my head at how some Clan Leaders worked out their rankings.

Well, there are a variety of opinions on rankings. Some rank overall, some rank just 1 vs 1. Some still view ACE and ATL as "new" clans. Some know that EMP won both challenges, but theres new dynamic with EMP/AOC combined into ACE.

So, understandably there's a variety in the rankings. And 17 rankers chose this as the average. There was only one I considered "flagging" but in the end, when I looked at the rankings it really wouldn't have changed anything so I left as is. Even removing the highest / lowest votes of each clan didn't change things very much.

So, we will let the competition sort it out in the field.

IcePack

[The Voice]

I demand a recount!


We should be ranked last

[Leehar]

Well that's thrown up some surprise rankings.

ACE (Empire) who've won this for the last two years only 4th, ATL 9th and Fall 2nd !!!!!!!

While I am somewhat disappointed, I can't be too surprised since I imagine a few folks may just have copied the F400 rankings verbatim, where we're 'unranked'. Heck we were ranked 12th in the BG's Coaches Poll which isn't really that great an indicator of our level either, but it's just how things go sometimes, and what the different perspectives offer.

It would be great to see a standard deviation like how Chuuuuck used to do with the power rankings, since I expect we'd have a fairly large differential between the guys who ranked us first like you, and others who left us right nearer the bottom as a side-effect of the new 'dynamic' :/


I do think that Ice did a good job with the description though

You must rank the clans in order of best to last for 1 vs 1 talents.

[IcePack]

I can't be too surprised since I imagine a few folks may just have copied the F400 rankings verbatim, where we're 'unranked'.

I believe there was only 1 clan who used current F400 rankings. The rest altered it one way or another.

[Foxglove]

Well that's thrown up some surprise rankings.

ACE (Empire) who've won this for the last two years only 4th, ATL 9th and Fall 2nd !!!!!!!

While I am somewhat disappointed, I can't be too surprised since I imagine a few folks may just have copied the F400 rankings verbatim, where we're 'unranked'. Heck we were ranked 12th in the BG's Coaches Poll which isn't really that great an indicator of our level either, but it's just how things go sometimes, and what the different perspectives offer.

BG's Coaches Poll is mostly a joke though, right? Kind of like a blitz list? I mean it only ranks half of the clans. Individuals providing the rankings are basically self appointed, and only a few people even bothered. And concerning those self appointed individuals - how many people trust their opinion to be accurate, unbiased, reflective of the views of their entire clan, and knowledgeable about all of the clans?

It would be great to see a standard deviation like how Chuuuuck used to do with the power rankings, since I expect we'd have a fairly large differential between the guys who ranked us first like you, and others who left us right nearer the bottom as a side-effect of the new 'dynamic' :/

The power rankings served their purpose years ago - when we had far fewer clans. It was also a much more rigorous process: it was expected that each clan's vote represented the views of the entire clan (not just the person who happened to volunteer in a thread), anomalous votes were thrown out, and all (participating) clans were ranked.

I think it's a good way to do the 1v1 challenge seeding, which is so different than normal clan games - but obviously the process isn't without flaws.

[kizkiz]

I mainly used the F400, as i quite frankly haven't a clue about the higher clans, except that they are better than us. lol
I did stick ACE second once i'd worked out who they were. Also had to slip atlantis in fairly high

[Genoke]

Strongest
KORT
ACE
ID
OSA
MD
TNC
TFFS
FALL
OTP
PIG
WAR
ATN
LEG
HH
FISO
KNT
SOH
MB
VVV
Weakest

I mainly used F400 too and took notice of former 1v1 clan challenge:
and added a bit of my intuition...

[Keefie]

Strongest
KORT
ACE
ID
OSA
MD
TNC
TFFS
FALL
OTP
PIG
WAR
ATN
LEG
HH
FISO
KNT
SOH
MB
VVV
Weakest

I mainly used F400 too and took notice of former 1v1 clan challenge:
and added a bit of my intuition...

You obviously don't look at current wars. HH are thrashing the pants off of ATN, but you rank them higher

[ViperOverLord]

This is based upon above chat. But going to omit the text to save space.

Re: ACE and Voting System

1. Voters may have overlooked ACE. From a purely acronym p.o.v., EMP was an established brand and ACE is much more obscure.
2. ACE still was seeded in the top four, which is effectively the same as 1-3 because they all get byes and the proceeding match-ups are roughly the same. So, the argument then seems to be more of an argument of prestige than fairness.
3. Why should ACE merit a one spot even? (Not saying there isn't a case). EMP, okay. But, voters aren't going to even know how many EMP players are left over in ACE. It's not like voters are handed all types of data before they make their votes. And unless you're expecting them to research for hours upon hours, then they're not going to know that type of information.
4. Again, voters don't know everything, nor should they be expect to. FALL got the 2 seed and my clan was only ranked 12th even though we beat FALL and only lost EMP 23-18 after a bad start in the first batch. (Probably the closest match-up against them). But, FALL has played better lately and ACE is still somewhat obscure and that's why it is what it is.
5. Yes, there is some guess work involved. I myself, did not have time to go through the 1 v 1 records for 20 clans. That would have taken hours. Perhaps, a task force would have been better. However, as this event continues year after year and there's more data, then I think the voting is an equitable (and more fun) system. I think the organizer should be sure to supply that data in the PM though. It's too much for every voter to go digging through threads; especially if they have a million other things going on.

Re: Other points

1. The Coaches poll voters are self appointed? Not at all. Every clan is entitled to one representative. That's perfectly fair. And KORT if I recall correctly, does not have a representative. Why? Are they protesting the legitimacy of the poll? I don't know. But, they have every right to participate if they choose.
2. You don't need power rankings based upon formulas. That's exactly what the f-400 is. The coach's poll gauges perception and therefore can account for potential discrepancies or shortcomings in the system. I for one, like that. It doesn't mean it's without biases and therefore it can always be argued that it's flawed. Nonetheless, it's good to know how your peers fancy you.

[ViperOverLord]

You obviously don't look at current wars. HH are thrashing the pants off of ATN, but you rank them higher

Not to compare the two clans; I'll just make the philosophical point that clan wars are not the same as 1 v 1 gaming. I felt like my clan was the best 1 v 1 clan going into last year (if not top 3). Because we were all great 1 v 1 players who formed a clan and that was our background. We beat FALLEN and minus some tough breaks, I thought we would have beaten Empire too. Despite our great 1 v 1 records, we were seeded like 14 or something b/c we had little prestige as a clan. The disconnect happens, but as this event continues and precedents are established, hopefully there will be less of that.

As for this year, I haven't examined it as closely. I know we've been playing a lot more team games and I don't know if there's been some drop-off in our 1 v 1 games either via departures or a lack of playing 1 v 1 games as much. I just knew going into last year, we were a frontrunner and nobody else (or few else) even knew it and that was reflected in the seedings.

But, to circle back to my original point, a clan can be ranked low and have good to great 1 v 1 players and therefore can beat clans they may normally not beat.

[Keefie]

You obviously don't look at current wars. HH are thrashing the pants off of ATN, but you rank them higher

Not to compare the two clans; I'll just make the philosophical point that clan wars are not the same as 1 v 1 gaming. I felt like my clan was the best 1 v 1 clan going into last year (if not top 3). Because we were all great 1 v 1 players who formed a clan and that was our background. We beat FALLEN and minus some tough breaks, I thought we would have beaten Empire too. Despite our great 1 v 1 records, we were seeded like 14 or something b/c we had little prestige as a clan. The disconnect happens, but as this event continues and precedents are established, hopefully there will be less of that.

As for this year, I haven't examined it as closely. I know we've been playing a lot more team games and I don't know if there's been some drop-off in our 1 v 1 games either via departures or a lack of playing 1 v 1 games as much. I just knew going into last year, we were a frontrunner and nobody else (or few else) even knew it and that was reflected in the seedings.

But, to circle back to my original point, a clan can be ranked low and have good to great 1 v 1 players and therefore can beat clans they may normally not beat.

I fully accept your point about the difference between clan wars and 1v1. But I'm still struggling to see how anyone could rank ATN higher than HH or the Legion in either game type. I'm not upset by it, just slightly flummoxed.

[Foxglove]

1. The Coaches poll voters are self appointed? Not at all. Every clan is entitled to one representative. That's perfectly fair. And KORT if I recall correctly, does not have a representative. Why? Are they protesting the legitimacy of the poll? I don't know. But, they have every right to participate if they choose.

Just because I posted doesn't make me a mouth-piece for KORT. My opinions and criticisms are my own. I have no idea what other people in KORT think about the legitimacy of the poll - I've just expressed my own opinion that it is worse than useless. If someone from KORT wanted to voluntarily appointment themself as the KORT representative I'm sure it wouldn't elicit a reaction from anyone.

2. You don't need power rankings based upon formulas. That's exactly what the f-400 is. The coach's poll gauges perception and therefore can account for potential discrepancies or shortcomings in the system. I for one, like that. It doesn't mean it's without biases and therefore it can always be argued that it's flawed. Nonetheless, it's good to know how your peers fancy you.

There's no argument that it's flawed, I hope - it's understood as a fact. And my very personal, not clan-representative opinion is that the flaws are so glaring and egregious that no benefit whatsoever is derived from the effort put into it. Again, that is solely my opinion! If anyone has any questions about whether my words reflect popular KORT opinion or not, I assure you that I haven't asked anyone so I haven't the faintest idea. I just feel compelled to point out the ridiculousness of the coaches' poll (my perception), because people now and then indicate that maybe it should be used for something of value - like seeding in an actual competition (it was proposed in the CC4 discussions), and I think that should be avoided at all costs.

Sorry, IcePack, for this tangential discussion.

[niMic]

Personally, I always think something is flawed if it doesn't put me at the top of the list. That's only one of the many reasons why I do not recognize the legitimacy of the CC Scoreboard.

Other than that, I mostly agree with the Foxy glove.