Grammar question: What do you think?

[Genghis Khant]

Last couple of sentences for the discussion and I'll call it a day:

Once upon a time, there ......... an old man and an old woman.

There ....... a loud bang and a flash of light.

"was" or "were"?

Was, both times.

[The1exile]

Since this is a grammar thread adnt his question bugged me... given that the plural of mouse is mice, why is the plural of spouse not spice?

[Symmetry]

I'm going to be crappy and revive this old thread of mine. I've been away for a year, traveling mostly. Most stuff on here is political now and this thread still has no consensus. It's something that still bothers me when I'm writing. Plus it's great that people still worry about how we express ourselves. Finally, this isn't intended to be another UK vs US match off. Sometimes we aren't separated by a common language.

So yeah- was/were? Is it just pedantic? How would you teach it to foreign students?

[thegreekdog]

A book and five pens are on my desk.

[got tonkaed]

There are five pens and a book on my desk.

[Timminz]

are

[the.killing.44]

There are five pens and a book on my desk.

[Symmetry]

And if it's reversed? There >>> a book and five pens?

Personally, I'm no grammar Nazi. It's pretty tough when you're teaching to say that something just "sounds right though"

[got tonkaed]

And if it's reversed? There >>> a book and five pens?

Personally, I'm no grammar Nazi. It's pretty tough when you're teaching to say that something just "sounds right though"

I think i would try to suggest to my kids that the subject and the verb should agree making it are. In regards to clunkyness of it, thats where id recommend in the case of pens and book, putting the plural first to remove the confusion.

[TheProwler]

There is a pen, a fax machine, a printer, a monitor, a crap load of paper, a phone, two glasses, one half-filled with water, a box of Kleenex, an answering machine, a stick of memory, a stapler, a bottle of toner, a USB cable, and a bunch of other stuff on my desk.

What a mess.

I'd say, if the first "thing" in your list is singular, use "is"; if the first "thing" in your list is plural, use "are".

[thegreekdog]

Alternatively, it could be:

There is a book on my desk. There are five pens on my desk.

Which probably confuses the issue more.

[Lord and Master]

There ............. a book and five pens on my desk.

"is" or "are"

The subject "a book and five pens" should agree with the verb- "are", but I would say "is".

Anybody interested in the English language? Thoughts?


dullest post ever

IS as the next part of the sentence is in the singular (a book), however if the sentence were reversed, ie so five pens and a book, then it would be ARE, as that goes with the plural.

[john9blue]

"A book" and "five pens". Plural object. So I'd say "are".

[daddy1gringo]

I'm going to be crappy and revive this old thread of mine.... this thread still has no consensus. It's something that still bothers me when I'm writing. Plus it's great that people still worry about how we express ourselves.

So yeah- was/were? Is it just pedantic? How would you teach it to foreign students?

I thought we did come to a consensus, more or less. "Are" is technically correct, but ugly. "Is" is simply incorrect; "a book and five pens" is compound. The writer has two choices: be correct but ugly, or restructure the sentence. If you also consider beauty as a standard of good English, only the second option is correct.

[PLAYER57832]

There ............. a book and five pens on my desk.

"is" or "are"

The subject "a book and five pens" should agree with the verb- "are", but I would say "is".

Anybody interested in the English language? Thoughts?


dullest post ever

"A book" and "five pens". Plural object. So I'd say "are".

There is the subject, so "is" is the verb. "A book and five pens" is the object. The object happens to be pural.

and I agree... dullest post ever

[PLAYER57832]

I'm going to be crappy and revive this old thread of mine.... this thread still has no consensus. It's something that still bothers me when I'm writing. Plus it's great that people still worry about how we express ourselves.

So yeah- was/were? Is it just pedantic? How would you teach it to foreign students?

I thought we did come to a consensus, more or less. "Are" is technically correct, but ugly. "Is" is simply incorrect; "a book and five pens" is compound. The writer has two choices: be correct but ugly, or restructure the sentence. If you also consider beauty as a standard of good English, only the second option is correct.

No, sorry, but diagram it and see.

The subject is "There". The verb is tied to the subject, not the object of the sentence. It is a common error.

[john9blue]

There is the subject, so "is" is the verb. "A book and five pens" is the object. The object happens to be pural.

and I agree... dullest post ever

Well "there" is a pronoun referring to the plural object, so it takes on a plural form.

[john9blue]

Update: This seems to settle the issue.

[daddy1gringo]

I'm going to be crappy and revive this old thread of mine.... this thread still has no consensus. It's something that still bothers me when I'm writing. Plus it's great that people still worry about how we express ourselves.

So yeah- was/were? Is it just pedantic? How would you teach it to foreign students?

I thought we did come to a consensus, more or less. "Are" is technically correct, but ugly. "Is" is simply incorrect; "a book and five pens" is compound. The writer has two choices: be correct but ugly, or restructure the sentence. If you also consider beauty as a standard of good English, only the second option is correct.

No, sorry, but diagram it and see.

The subject is "There". The verb is tied to the subject, not the object of the sentence. It is a common error.

That's incorrect. If what you say were true we would say "There IS five pens on the desk." and we do not. "There is" is a phrase functioning as a verb. "a book and five pens" is the subject.

[PLAYER57832]

There is the subject, so "is" is the verb. "A book and five pens" is the object. The object happens to be pural.

and I agree... dullest post ever

Well "there" is a pronoun referring to the plural object, so it takes on a plural form.

You are correct. .. and it has been over 30 year since I diagramed a sentence ...

[TheProwler]

Update: This seems to settle the issue.

That doesn't really touch on the subject of what to use when there is both a singular noun and a plural noun. If we followed the guidelines suggested there, we should use both "are" and "is".


Or where you just trying to be funny?

[john9blue]

That doesn't really touch on the subject of what to use when there is both a singular noun and a plural noun. If we followed the guidelines suggested there, we should use both "are" and "is".


Or where you just trying to be funny?

The "object" isn't just one word, it's the phrase including both the book and the five pens. That's more than one thing. Book + five pens = plural.

Since I don't know much about government and healthcare, at least let me talk about what I do know.

Or were you just trying to start another argument?

[TheProwler]

That doesn't really touch on the subject of what to use when there is both a singular noun and a plural noun. If we followed the guidelines suggested there, we should use both "are" and "is".


Or where you just trying to be funny?

The "object" isn't just one word, it's the phrase including both the book and the five pens. That's more than one thing. Book + five pens = plural.

Since I don't know much about government and healthcare, at least let me talk about what I do know.

Or were you just trying to start another argument?

You provided a link to a page that did not address the question posed in this thread.

It said "Use "there is" for one item. (singular nouns) Use "there is" for non-count items. (non-count nouns) Use "there are" for many items. (plural nouns) "

In the sentence we are looking at, there is both a singular noun (book) and a plural noun (pens).

or do you prefer

In the sentence we are looking at, there are both a singular noun (book) and a plural noun (pens).

You linked to something that definitely doesn't settle the issue. Which is why I asked if you were just trying to be funny.

[angola]

Thanks for the reply.

That's my opinion as well. I'm an English teacher and I covered this grammar point recently. Another teacher corrected what he thought was my mistake (i.e. he thinks "are" should be used, and that "is" is merely conversational English).

I've asked a few other peeps since then. Opinion is divided. Most reckon "is" sounds right, and "are" sounds clunky. Some (including at least one newspaper editor) say that "are" is correct even if you think it sounds odd.

There's been no consensus so far. So I thought I'd turn to Conquer Club...

Pretty sure it is are. And to be honest, 'is' sounds more awkward to me than 'are' in that situation.

[MeDeFe]

That doesn't really touch on the subject of what to use when there is both a singular noun and a plural noun. If we followed the guidelines suggested there, we should use both "are" and "is".


Or where you just trying to be funny?

The "object" isn't just one word, it's the phrase including both the book and the five pens. That's more than one thing. Book + five pens = plural.

Since I don't know much about government and healthcare, at least let me talk about what I do know.

Or were you just trying to start another argument?

You provided a link to a page that did not address the question posed in this thread.

It said "Use "there is" for one item. (singular nouns) Use "there is" for non-count items. (non-count nouns) Use "there are" for many items. (plural nouns) "

In the sentence we are looking at, there is both a singular noun (book) and a plural noun (pens).

or do you prefer

In the sentence we are looking at, there are both a singular noun (book) and a plural noun (pens).

You linked to something that definitely doesn't settle the issue. Which is why I asked if you were just trying to be funny.

In the case of thew book and the pens there appear to be many items on the table. Therefore, the plural form is called for.