Treating the Pill as Abortion.

[bedub1]

Also, there is MORE than enough stem cells left in the umbilical cords of every child born every day. There is no reason to "grow fetus's" and then "kill them" in order to obtain stem cells. Trillions of stem cells are thrown away every single day when they chop off that umbilical cord and throw it in the trash.

[black elk speaks]

Umm... you do realize that every successful experiment with stem cells to date has been with adult stem cells, and that embryonic stem cells have yet to succeed as they theoretically should have? Research...

I was merely pointing out the fact that the cells in question, the embryonic cells, are quite different from the cells that make up the human body. He said

...Your eyeballs genetics don't turn into anything different...

yet, the cells of a fertilized egg have the ability to become any number of different kinds of cells.

back on track now? it is my opinion that abortion can only occur after the fertilized egg has attached. and in my opinion, there are circumstances that warrant abortion even after the egg has attached, take for example the case of rape. if you want to argue that God put a baby in the womb as a part of his master plan by way of rape, then there is a volume that i could write about the will of god that, for me, disproves the bible as well as the ridiculous radical Christian viewpoint that it promotes.

[Xayath]

yet, the cells of a fertilized egg have the ability to become any number of different kinds of cells.

This is not because of a change in their genetics. Once an organism has reached a certain stage of development instructional chemicals such as hormones are released into the cell mass which instruct the cells in terms of which type of cell it is to become

I am NOT refuting your statements or that of your opposition, i am merely clairifing a relevant fact.

[black elk speaks]

yet, the cells of a fertilized egg have the ability to become any number of different kinds of cells.

This is not because of a change in their genetics. Once an organism has reached a certain stage of development instructional chemicals such as hormones are released into the cell mass which instruct the cells in terms of which type of cell it is to become

I am NOT refuting your statements or that of your opposition, i am merely clairifing a relevant fact.

no worries. i know very little about stem cell research. i was only making a point about the ability of the cells in question. also, i wanted to clarify so that my point wasn't misunderstood.

i appreciate your voice. so... rational.

[strike wolf]

Well, if birth control pills are considered abortion then the next step would be saying the same about the use of condoms?

[PopeBenXVI]

My point in bringing to your attention the hundreds of millions of dollars made by planned parenthood each year on abortions was not to claim that as my reason for opposing them. My reason is still because it murders a human life. My point was to show how it is a modivator in keeping it legal beacause of all the money involved. If they were really concerned with womens health why do they opposed so greatly the proposed legislation to have a manditory untrasound before an abortion. That way they can make a more informed "Choice". The reason is because many women change their mind after seeing the baby on screen and that effects their abortion bottom line. $$$$

You claim I have the agenda. What is my motive Black? Using my tax dollars to pay for children out of wedlock......ya great agenda. What good is it for me to "control" people with my "conservative views" by legally forcing them to have the baby they made. Their is no conservative agenda other than saving the lives of the unborn.....or can you think of one I am not awaire of?

Also, your logic of exceptions means that you do support murder. You stated you believe life begins when it is attached to the womb. OK, lets just go with that thought for a minute. So then you would agree that any termination after that point is Murder as you believe it to be a life at that point.

Apparently in your eyes murder is ok if it's convenient for the individual......Tell me Black who of us has the agenda? The method in which a pregnancy happened does not delegitimise the life created....it only makes it more or less "planned/wanted"

[bedub1]

no....because condoms don't allow the fertilization of an egg....the pill does...then right after it's fertilized...the pill tricks the body into thinking it's not fertilized...so the body just flushes it out.

[strike wolf]

no....because condoms don't allow the fertilization of an egg....the pill does...then right after it's fertilized...the pill tricks the body into thinking it's not fertilized...so the body just flushes it out.

My point about the condom is not to say that they actually will my point is that these thing do in fact have a tendency to be taken too far.

[Neoteny]

If they were really concerned with womens health why do they opposed so greatly the proposed legislation to have a manditory untrasound before an abortion. That way they can make a more informed "Choice".

And this information is... "oh shit, there really is a little thing growing in me!" Isn't that a bit redundant? I can't tell you how many times I've heard girls say "I had no idea what was going on until I got the ultrasound. I'm so glad they made me do it. Who knows, I may have tried to get an abortion if I didn't know there was a baby in me." All a mandatory ultrasound is is a device to toy with the emotions of these women in support of an agenda. Don't dress it up as aiding in making a choice.

[black elk speaks]

My point in bringing to your attention the hundreds of millions of dollars made by planned parenthood each year on abortions was not to claim that as my reason for opposing them. My reason is still because it murders a human life. My point was to show how it is a modivator in keeping it legal beacause of all the money involved. If they were really concerned with womens health why do they opposed so greatly the proposed legislation to have a manditory untrasound before an abortion. That way they can make a more informed "Choice". The reason is because many women change their mind after seeing the baby on screen and that effects their abortion bottom line. $$$$

You claim I have the agenda. What is my motive Black? Using my tax dollars to pay for children out of wedlock......ya great agenda. What good is it for me to "control" people with my "conservative views" by legally forcing them to have the baby they made. Their is no conservative agenda other than saving the lives of the unborn.....or can you think of one I am not awaire of?

Also, your logic of exceptions means that you do support murder. You stated you believe life begins when it is attached to the womb. OK, lets just go with that thought for a minute. So then you would agree that any termination after that point is Murder as you believe it to be a life at that point.

Apparently in your eyes murder is ok if it's convenient for the individual......Tell me Black who of us has the agenda? The method in which a pregnancy happened does not delegitimise the life created....it only makes it more or less "planned/wanted"

i don't recall saying anything about you having an agenda. i certainly never said that you have conservative political views that fuel your agenda. clearly to me your motivation to speak out against abortion is a moral one based on your religious beliefs.

i do believe that there are circumstances that warrant an abortion of a pregnancy that is unwanted. a rape victim that never asked to be brutally impregnated by a sex craved monster, i say give her the abortion if she wants it. i even say let my tax dollars pay for it. to the mother that has a rick risk of death from complications of pregnancy, a life for a life, i say let her make that decision and i can even live with the tax dollars being spent on that as well. to the welfare whore that refuses to keep her legs closed? i am less sympathetic.

this may shock you though, i happen to believe in assisted suicide for the terminally ill. the last think that i want for my last remaining days on this God forsaken earth is to have to rely on some ill qualified 20 something to have compassion for me while they have to change my diaper and pump me full of artificial chemicals to keep me alive furthering my disgraceful departure. please don't leave me in some hospital bed costing thousands of dollars to my family and community prolonging my misery to prevent "murder." my children already know that if that comes to be the case, they need to drop me off in the wilderness to die a natural death.

the thing about christianity that i don't get is what does it really matter anyway? it can be alleged that God causes hundreds of miscarriages every single day around the world. do you suppose that God says to those little souls "awww, im sorry little guy, your mommie was a heartless and murdering whore, off to hell with you now, you will get to see her there." i thought that you all believed that the innocent were guaranteed a place in the house of god in the afterlife.

[PopeBenXVI]

If you want people to have a true "informed choice" they should have all the info before making their "choice" right? Maybe we should not even tell them anything about the procedure huh? After all, what do they need to know details for. Just send em in and get it done.

Again...Tell me what my agenda is besides looking to save lives? Did you skip that question because you have no real good answer? How does it benifit me personally to have that line of thought?

[bedub1]

This is kinda off topic...but I couldn't find the other topics.
If you believe in and support abortion, do you wish your mom did too? I mean...has anybody said "i wish my mom had aborted me"?


(I'm both for and against abortion FYI)

[PopeBenXVI]

again you justify murder based on circumstance

[black elk speaks]

again you justify murder based on circumstance

well, mr pope, i suppose you could call it that. i would be willing to kill in self defense or the defense of others. i believe in and support our country's military, and soldiers kill. i believe in euthanasia as well as a woman's right to choose. more so in some circumstances than in others.

[Xayath]

um not to be rude but isnt there already a thread on abortion. Treating this thread like such would be off topic as the question here is the legitimisy of (a) whether or not birth control pills can be considered abortion and (b) whether the reference to the religious right ( or any religious organization) should be allowed to have as much control over governmental policy in america as they seem to.

Now maybe i am mistake but i think this is true.

[Neoteny]

If you want people to have a true "informed choice" they should have all the info before making their "choice" right? Maybe we should not even tell them anything about the procedure huh? After all, what do they need to know details for. Just send em in and get it done.

Again...Tell me what my agenda is besides looking to save lives? Did you skip that question because you have no real good answer? How does it benifit me personally to have that line of thought?

What information is being given during a mandatory ultrasound?

[black elk speaks]

um not to be rude but isnt there already a thread on abortion. Treating this thread like such would be off topic as the question here is the legitimisy of (a) whether or not birth control pills can be considered abortion and (b) whether the reference to the religious right ( or any religious organization) should be allowed to have as much control over governmental policy in america as they seem to.

Now maybe i am mistake but i think this is true.

it seems to me that the topic has veered a little, but is still in the general vicinity of the original topic. i feel as though the debate of when life actually begins is fair game when discussing the topic of the pill as a kind of abortion. but you are correct that the discussion has gone astray with regards to being pro or anti abortion, partially my fault.

apologies.

[bedub1]

I came up with an idea a while ago. When a human is alive....and then gets to like 80...and dies......what is the definition of death? Do you need brain activity? Breathing ability? Awareness? Once we define what "Death" is...can't we just use the opposite to decide what "life" is?

It seems to me this all breaks down because we can't decide when a group of cells is alive. I'm a really big group of cells...and I'm alive. Do you have to be born? Are you alive inside the womb? Have you seen an ultrasound at 8 months? Looks like a person to me.....

[PopeBenXVI]

Partly my fault for getting off topic a bit as well. I also think that going about it from the other direction would be opening another whole line of ideas so I am not even going to touch that. Ultrasound not only checks the health of a baby but can detect major bleeding/problems inside a womans body. Aren't you for womans health? So why should you care if a woman see's the baby and then chooses to keep them....are you not for choice? If your on a gameshow and somone tells you a car is behind door number one don't you want to see what the car looks like? It makes perfect sense to have an ultrasound and see what you are about to have unaturally ripped from your body in a dangerous procedure.

Black, you confuse murder with killing...they are not the same. The corrrect translation of the commandment is "shall not Murder" The Church (Catholic Church) has always taught you not only can.... but have an obligation to protect the inocent whether your talking about the military or protecting your family.

Perhapes you can explain how you justify murdering the inocent in the name of freedom of choice & how you put it in the same catigory of killing an invading army who is threatening your family. Just be a man and admit your logic does not add up and you contradict yourself on this. You are defending contradictory ideas unless you admit you see no problem with murder in any circumstances.

You believe it's a life at that point as you stated and you are ok with murdering that life as long as they are not wanted. Your justification for murder is if they are wanted humans or not.

[black elk speaks]

Partly my fault for getting off topic a bit as well. I also think that going about it from the other direction would be opening another whole line of ideas so I am not even going to touch that. Ultrasound not only checks the health of a baby but can detect major bleeding/problems inside a womans body. Aren't you for womans health? So why should you care if a woman see's the baby and then chooses to keep them....are you not for choice? If your on a gameshow and somone tells you a car is behind door number one don't you want to see what the car looks like? It makes perfect sense to have an ultrasound and see what you are about to have unaturally ripped from your body in a dangerous procedure.

Black, you confuse murder with killing...they are not the same. The corrrect translation of the commandment is "shall not Murder" The Church (Catholic Church) has always taught you not only can.... but have an obligation to protect the inocent whether your talking about the military or protecting your family.

Perhapes you can explain how you justify murdering the inocent in the name of freedom of choice & how you put it in the same catigory of killing an invading army who is threatening your family. Just be a man and admit your logic does not add up and you contradict yourself on this. You are defending contradictory ideas unless you admit you see no problem with murder in any circumstances.

You believe it's a life at that point as you stated and you are ok with murdering that life as long as they are not wanted. Your justification for murder is if they are wanted humans or not.

you suppose that i would do such a thing. i have children and i never, in my entire life, ever contemplated such a thing as abortion. to me, i could not do it. nor could my wife. it would be my personal choice to not have an abortion, but rather stand in the gap and be a father.

this is not for everyone to do. i do not believe that i have the right to subject my morals onto another person. everyone must find their own way and if there is a god, stand to face the judgment.

again, we veer. it seems that talking about this particular topic only begs the question of the morality of abortion.

the question really is, when does the egg, fertilized or not, become a person. to me, it is not yet a person, but a potential person. you will have to create a definition of a person that we can all agree on before we can continue this conversation.

feel free to start a new thread about the moral support of murder. i will happily share with you how i feel that the circumstances that i have described are exceptions that i can live with.

[jonesthecurl]

Please:
the question of whether abortion is right or wrong, and the circumstances under which it is right if it can ever be right has been bludgeoned to death in the thread on abortion. Revive that topic if you feel the need to say over agina that which has been said before several times and by a number of people.

It seems to me that this thread is about the question of whether "the pill" is abortion (When it has not previously been considered to be so). And who gets to make that definition.

If we can get back to that (or those) topics, I'll join in - but at the moment I'm just getting a powerful sense of deja vu. And if you want my views on the topic of abortion (or those of a number of CC posters) they are laid out clearly there.

[wrestler1ump]

Well thats my point, seems obvious there is an agenda that goes way past a dislike of abortion.

Wow you know what if a child is in the womb it doesn't really matter what race the child is, the child deserves to live. So quit saying that genocide has anything to do with it.

[bedub1]

Please:
the question of whether abortion is right or wrong, and the circumstances under which it is right if it can ever be right has been bludgeoned to death in the thread on abortion. Revive that topic if you feel the need to say over agina that which has been said before several times and by a number of people.

It seems to me that this thread is about the question of whether "the pill" is abortion (When it has not previously been considered to be so). And who gets to make that definition.

If we can get back to that (or those) topics, I'll join in - but at the moment I'm just getting a powerful sense of deja vu. And if you want my views on the topic of abortion (or those of a number of CC posters) they are laid out clearly there.

They claim the pill is abortion, because they claim life begins at conception(hello egg...meet Mr. sperm), not at the time of the attachment of the ___________ to the uterine wall. So the question isn't even about abortion. The question is about when does life start. If we can agree on when life starts...then I think we agree that killing a living life is a bad thing and murder. But if it's not alive and a life...then it's not murder but just a "choice".

[comic boy]

Well thats my point, seems obvious there is an agenda that goes way past a dislike of abortion.

Wow you know what if a child is in the womb it doesn't really matter what race the child is, the child deserves to live. So quit saying that genocide has anything to do with it.

Has anybody got the least idea what he is talking about and what it has to do with anything I have said

[black elk speaks]

Please:
the question of whether abortion is right or wrong, and the circumstances under which it is right if it can ever be right has been bludgeoned to death in the thread on abortion. Revive that topic if you feel the need to say over agina that which has been said before several times and by a number of people.

It seems to me that this thread is about the question of whether "the pill" is abortion (When it has not previously been considered to be so). And who gets to make that definition.

If we can get back to that (or those) topics, I'll join in - but at the moment I'm just getting a powerful sense of deja vu. And if you want my views on the topic of abortion (or those of a number of CC posters) they are laid out clearly there.

you have to determine when the fertilized egg is considered a person. when does pregnancy actually begin.