[Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

[pancakemix]

Vote Count

IB - 4 (Gustaf, MoB, Rish, Mets)
Mets - 1 (betiko)

9 alive 5 to lynch

[betiko]

IB you're at L-1 if you have something you can use as you're pretending please use it asap!

[Iron Butterfly]

First My apologies but it has been a long day.

First I was given two gifts which enables me to perform xmas magic. I received a notification that I can use my gifts today which would let me perform any night action including xmas magic. i asked if I could resurrect a Town player and was informed I could.
I misunderstood how the gifting works and assumed that the action would work on the player that day. I was informed that the "gifts" are a night action. So my bad.

Something puzzles me. I understand that I have been investigated and turned up mafia. I do not see how Gustaff would not be Town BUT no one has claimed they were role blocked and there are a variety of ways the investigation could have been tainted.

It just dawned on me though. Why have we been trusting MOB? Since the investigation has been revealed he has been wanting to speed the lynch up.

Mob stated his win condition was to unite the two misers and he would be removed from game, while the two misers would become survivors. He seemed to think that having two survivors would be best for town as apposed to one (himself). I choose to let Spiesr win over Mob because Mob was completely self serving. I believe he has not been honest with us and is not a survivor.

And for your information i asked if negative night actions can be used such as vig actions, busdrives ect and the answer is yes.

Vote MOB

[betiko]

First My apologies but it has been a long day.

First I was given two gifts which enables me to perform xmas magic. I received a notification that I can use my gifts today which would let me perform any night action including xmas magic. i asked if I could resurrect a Town player and was informed I could.
I misunderstood how the gifting works and assumed that the action would work on the player that day. I was informed that the "gifts" are a night action. So my bad.

Something puzzles me. I understand that I have been investigated and turned up mafia. I do not see how Gustaff would not be Town BUT no one has claimed they were role blocked and there are a variety of ways the investigation could have been tainted.

It just dawned on me though. Why have we been trusting MOB? Since the investigation has been revealed he has been wanting to speed the lynch up.

Mob stated his win condition was to unite the two misers and he would be removed from game, while the two misers would become survivors. He seemed to think that having two survivors would be best for town as apposed to one (himself). I choose to let Spiesr win over Mob because Mob was completely self serving. I believe he has not been honest with us and is not a survivor.

And for your information i asked if negative night actions can be used such as vig actions, busdrives ect and the answer is yes.

Vote MOB

you mean "no one else" than me cause I can assure you I was roleblocked unless gustaf isn't saying the truth.
what do you mean that you asked for the resurection last night but it won't be working until tomorow or that last night you didn't have enough gifts?

if you're acusing mob of trying to speed lynch you, gustaf is guilty of the same. In fact gustaf and mob have always been on the same page all along. don't think it's enough thugh comared to a sure scum lnch with mets.

you can do the math of scum night actions night per night and with the tells from the scenes. when did the diviner had time for a check on mets?

[Metsfanmax]

It just dawned on me though. Why have we been trusting MOB? Since the investigation has been revealed he has been wanting to speed the lynch up.

That did not escape my notice, but it doesn't change the fact that you are the best lynch opportunity we have right now. I can't deny the possibility that Gustaf's result is not accurate. But I also can't see how we could possibly make a more rational choice with today's vote. Lynching either myself or betiko would be the wrong move, given the uncertainties that evidently surround both of us. If Gustaf's claimed result is incorrect, then even that is useful information; we could actually use that to our advantage, if it implies that he has become an insane cop (although we would gain nothing if he were just a naive cop). Obviously it would not be great for town to lose that, but we would still have (probably) 6 people on our side, against 2 for mafia.

[betiko]

It just dawned on me though. Why have we been trusting MOB? Since the investigation has been revealed he has been wanting to speed the lynch up.

That did not escape my notice, but it doesn't change the fact that you are the best lynch opportunity we have right now. I can't deny the possibility that Gustaf's result is not accurate. But I also can't see how we could possibly make a more rational choice with today's vote. Lynching either myself or betiko would be the wrong move, given the uncertainties that evidently surround both of us. If Gustaf's claimed result is incorrect, then even that is useful information; we could actually use that to our advantage, if it implies that he has become an insane cop (although we would gain nothing if he were just a naive cop). Obviously it would not be great for town to lose that, but we would still have (probably) 6 people on our side, against 2 for mafia.

I'd rather lynch a scum that a possible town for "experiments". he can just investigate mob for example tonight as it worked before with 3rd parties. He can investigate edoc or witt for a sure town and see what result he gets.
I'm pretty sure my scenario is what actually happened. I think we need to end the betiko/mets fight.

[Metsfanmax]

It just dawned on me though. Why have we been trusting MOB? Since the investigation has been revealed he has been wanting to speed the lynch up.

That did not escape my notice, but it doesn't change the fact that you are the best lynch opportunity we have right now. I can't deny the possibility that Gustaf's result is not accurate. But I also can't see how we could possibly make a more rational choice with today's vote. Lynching either myself or betiko would be the wrong move, given the uncertainties that evidently surround both of us. If Gustaf's claimed result is incorrect, then even that is useful information; we could actually use that to our advantage, if it implies that he has become an insane cop (although we would gain nothing if he were just a naive cop). Obviously it would not be great for town to lose that, but we would still have (probably) 6 people on our side, against 2 for mafia.

I'd rather lynch a scum that a possible town for "experiments". he can just investigate mob for example tonight as it worked before with 3rd parties. He can investigate edoc or witt for a sure town and see what result he gets.
I'm pretty sure my scenario is what actually happened. I think we need to end the betiko/mets fight.

It's not mainly an experiment. We have zero reason to believe that Gustaf's results are inaccurate. He has been shown to produce accurate results on previous nights. You have this very specific conjecture that might be possible, but there's nothing to ground it in. If you remove your belief that I am scum, the entire basis for your case vanishes, which shows that it is thin to begin with.

At any rate, the betiko/mets "fight" is on hold. The only person you've managed to land on your side with a vote is ana (I didn't miss that, and I will return to this on a later Day). There's not much left we can do at this point besides hold a vote and see who goes down (which would be you based on past votes, but you seem to be ok with this since you think it will prove that I am mafia). And if that's the case, we might as well save that for a time when we don't actually have a lead.

[MoB Deadly]

IB still trying to frame me. Remember last time you took that path? I let my actions and vote speak for themselves. If townies start disliking how I play then maybe I will change, but I am not going to listen to someone with a guilty result on them.

Betiko vs Mets - This is EXACTLY WHY I wanted to lynch IB quickly. Now it's a huge foggy debate. Betiko still looks much more scummier with his ridiculous scenarios.

[rishaed]

why are you guys rushing things?? there is a big question here: why the hell didn't they performed a night kill.
Gustaf, they might have used it to frame your result. If IB turns town after we lynch him wouldn't it be interesting to hear what he had to say? the more info the better.

I find this interesting as well unvote
The day is still young, why rush things?

[Iron Butterfly]

IB still trying to frame me. Remember last time you took that path? I let my actions and vote speak for themselves. If townies start disliking how I play then maybe I will change, but I am not going to listen to someone with a guilty result on them.

Betiko vs Mets - This is EXACTLY WHY I wanted to lynch IB quickly. Now it's a huge foggy debate. Betiko still looks much more scummier with his ridiculous scenarios.

LOL "maybe You will change??

THAT is the main reason I felt it prudent to lynch soundman. Why keep around two survivors, who may decide to form a vote tandem and flip on town. The game up to yesterday was looking bleak for Town. Now you say you may change. Thank you for showing i made the right call.

Your action and vote was purely self preservation followed by ange.r I denied your win condition. Your arguments for my guilt were pure WIFOM speculation.

At present I am not trying to do anything as dramatic as "frame" you though I find it an interesting choice of words. I have a right to question your motives and what has happened to me.

[Gustaf Wasa]

lol, you 2 really make me laugh.

You don't make me laugh. You are incapable of accepting that someone has an opinion other than yours, and you immediately start insulting people when that happens. You don't know how to play this game, but I think your ego prevents you from seeing that.

Knowing that you are going to lose this must really bother you, right? I think it is all about winning for you.

[Gustaf Wasa]

I find this interesting as well unvote
The day is still young, why rush things?

Because there is nothing left to discuss, betiko is just blowing smoke out of his ass as usual, trying to prevent his proven scum buddy from being lynched. Iron Butterfly showed up Mafia in my investigation. (I am posting this again for those lazy players who can't seem to show up in this game.) Listening to whatever crap betiko brings up won't solve anything, we lynch him and move on. Suppose he WOULD be town anyway, because someone used "Christmas magic" to somehow make the investigation show anyone investigated as scum. Well, you won't find that out without lynching him. And we are not at lylo, if that helps. But the more the obvious Mafia betiko defends him, the more convinced I am, if any more convincing was needed.

[betiko]

lol, you 2 really make me laugh.

You don't make me laugh. You are incapable of accepting that someone has an opinion other than yours, and you immediately start insulting people when that happens. You don't know how to play this game, but I think your ego prevents you from seeing that.

Knowing that you are going to lose this must really bother you, right? I think it is all about winning for you.

I didn't know that making other people laugh was an insult, maybe that s why swedes are such fun!
Seems like you are very tolerant for other opinions of what might have happened, and you are such a great player letting aside his ego!!! ( I have to say I ve never played someone that clueless and with such a superiority complex, nice to meet you!) I ve been framed as a cop once and after making all town go for the person with the guilty result I can assure you that tomorrow you would ve gotten lynched. So blame me for protecting your ass by anticipation if your result comes in false. I also think that I d rather get lynched so town sees I m who I say I am and pay more attention to what I ve been saying. Otherwise we are just blindly following the tracks that mafia wants us to follow and mets will end up being cleared.

And Gustaf, as I said it s about making my faction win in this case town. I rather think you are town because you are lucky enough to have taken over the shoes of a great player, unfortunately, unless you are scum (in that case nice play), I think that you should give up on your intuitions, they are far off from the truth.

[betiko]

Anyway, sorry about that previous post, I responded to the baiting and it's not relevant.
I'll just say that you are completely wrong gustaf, and that is not an opinion but a fact from my perspective with the elements I have.
You have the right not to believe me of course, but that's another story.
This game is getting twisted with so many possibilities, and I'm aware that I might be doing a fool of myself with the mets case if ever he is town as well, and if IB is scum and your result hasn't been framed. But hey, my gut feeling says otherwise, so does yours about me. Let's stop making this personal as we are getting ridiculous.

[Gustaf Wasa]

I didn't know that making other people laugh was an insult, maybe that s why swedes are such fun!

Now you are insulting me for being Swedish? Seriously? As if you knew anything about Sweden. You fail at this, betiko.

Seems like you are very tolerant for other opinions of what might have happened, and you are such a great player letting aside his ego!!!

You are the one who started insulting me as soon as I started a vote against you. I am calling you out on it. Then you just keep on doing what you always do...

( I have to say I ve never played someone that clueless and with such a superiority complex, nice to meet you!)

Seeing the obvious signs of you being Mafia makes me "clueless"? Clueless is yet another insult. I bet you would want to use stronger language but you are afraid the mod will give you a warning.

Like I said, you don't know how to play this game. Look at all the games going on right now. No one acts like you do. That should give you a "clue".

[betiko]

I've already answered in my previous post that I'm not falling anymore in the personal attack debate (besides I don't think either of us really cares of what the other thinks). Just wondering if I'll get some sort of apology from you once you'll see I'm town and how irritating it has been to see you acusing me based on things I never said or did. I think it wouldn't be a bad thing for you to look back in the game at end game, you will undersand why you and mob have been hurting town if it really wasn't your intention.
I'll definitely apologize to mets if he ends up being town and to you if IB turns scum (but only if you turn out to be town! ).
I'm wondering if with christmas magic you can change the alignment of a player, I don't think it would be a game breaker. Given the mechanics it would be almost impossible for mafia to have twice christmas magic, as I guess all presents go to the gift stealer once they're robbed, so it would be 4 then 6 gifts needed, almost impossible. Therefore it's not impossible to still be facing 3 mafia. We could still get a town revived, i don't know what the toymaker is but a roleblocker or a redirector would definitely help.
Also, as far as we know no one has had his gifts stolen last night, I guess they didn't have enough actions for that.

[MoB Deadly]

If you personally think I was out of line I would definitely apologize. It is just a game we are trying to have fun in. I only react to other peoples' posts. I try not to escalate debates myself, but if someone else is escalating it (or blatantly calling me a lair which is false), then I will definitely escalate it right back.

But again, remember this is all just a game, and people are competitive so don't take anything personal here. I also wouldn't go out of your way to MAKE things personal either.

betiko, one of the reasons I am going against you personally so hard much more than mets, is because I KNOW how competitive and smart you are. Other players that are mafia would not play as aggressive as you are. I can see right through that you are pulling every straw available to try and wiggle IB out of the lynch. I respect you for doing so, but that just makes it even more obvious that you are mafia, because you are a smart player and you are pushing for us to go against logic right now.

You are asking us….. Instead of following a hard guilty result… you want us to follow a WIFOM argument that someone made Gustaf insane last night. Worst case scenario, IB is town. However, his lynch wouldn't even be a bad lynch since IB is on the list of roles that have not been confirmed.

[MoB Deadly]

I think it wouldn't be a bad thing for you to look back in the game at end game, you will undersand why you and mob have been hurting town if it really wasn't your intention.

And give me some credit and have a little faith. I was the one who told you to vote thechuck even though you were all set on mets yesterday. And look where that got us.

[betiko]

Mob, at no point this has gone personal between you and me here, unlike with gustaf (and I have my share of guilt in that).
The only mafia game we've played together was a game where we were scummates (my first mafia game ever and the one and only time I've ever been mafia by the way).

My problem here is that you and gustaf here are not giving the slight chance that I am town. I'm very much convinced that mets is scum, although I know there is a slight possibility that he is saying the truth, even though I am not giving much credit to it.

Just put yourself in my shoes for a second: assume that I am town. How do you explain last night's action from my perspective?
-if there has been indeed a failed lynch, then the only person who could've prevented this from happening is mets. That would change my whole vision of the game. But this is possibly scum's plan
-if they had 2 actions and mets in the open, what would you do in their shoes? you can't both block me and gustaf. Keeping me "scummable" seems pretty important for mafia, as they've left me live till now. You know your gifts were stolen and mine too + witt isn't telling everything about his sendings. isn't it very likely that the gift stealer reached 4 last night?? Using christmas magic to turn gustaf into an insane cop or even a scumbuddy seems like the best move they could come up with, even better than a night kill.

If mets is town, then my theory is unlikely. but then, what about the chuck case? what would you do if you were chuck? Would you play your claiming move thinking you will get caught, or will you play your move to misslead town? The first degree of wifom would be "ok, I'm going to clear 2 towns and 1 scumbuddy; a town being completely cleared, another being highly suspect and my scumbuddy who's the most in danger". Second degree of wifom would be "they are not going to believe me, so I'll clear 3 towns and bluff them with met's rolename that I caught night1 or 2". That would be a huge move. But I don't thing that chuck was threatened at all at that point. Also all his moves were made in order to have a case on me. He was agreeing with me and following all my moves all the time. I think that the initial plan was to make us think that chuck, me, mets and edoc are town; then have a backup plan in case things could get ugly for chuck or mets. If chuck had chosen 3 town, he would've missed an ocasion to clear a scumbuddy, and not being threatened I don't think it's what he did.
Also, chuck killed on night 3, he didn't use the diviner power. Why would he lie about the night he used the diviner power? He must have used it at some point if mets is town, as he gave a nameclaim that mets confirmed. I think that in the heat of the moment comming up with such a masterplay is highly unlikely, there is always a little detail you forget. So either chuck made a "master crime", either mets is his scumbuddy. Every night action from mets are highly convenient. let's please lynch him, and lynch me or IB tomorrow if I'm wrong.

Gustaf being able to use his action and no lynch seems way too easy from my perspective knowing that they used a roleblock on me and that they didn't night kill.

[MoB Deadly]

Mob, at no point this has gone personal between you and me here, unlike with gustaf (and I have my share of guilt in that).
The only mafia game we've played together was a game where we were scummates (my first mafia game ever and the one and only time I've ever been mafia by the way).

Good to Hear

My problem here is that you and gustaf here are not giving the slight chance that I am town. I'm very much convinced that mets is scum, although I know there is a slight possibility that he is saying the truth, even though I am not giving much credit to it.

I never said you weren't town. I just said In my personal opinion alone: (I even added your conjecture of a no-kill in this post). I was just saying I would vote for you before mets, that is all. I am just one vote though, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

God I suck at making 1 post.

I guess, the no kill COULD have been faked to make mets look clear as well. So mets cannot be taken off the list.

If IB is the gift stealer, then Betko or Mets is most likely Mafia Roleblocker, and animaniacs is clear.
If IB is NOT gift stealer, then Betiko, Mets, and animaniacs are on the list to be a gift stealer. With emphasis on animaniacs.

fastposted

EBWOP - I fail.

Just put yourself in my shoes for a second: assume that I am town. How do you explain last night's action from my perspective?

You can't and it sucks because I have been there before. The best thing you can do, is just give "last words" of who you think is scummiest and why in one concise post. Not fog up the game with tons of ridiculous scenarios.


Betiko (off the top of my head)
Why I think he is scum:
1. N1 claims to give me a present, zero reason it should not have gotten to me.
2. No confirmed actions at this point.
3. the chuck saved Betiko from impending lynch.
4. Mets voted for thechuck before Betiko did
5. Betiko used reasoning to say that it was impossible for thechuck to be a role cop AND betiko mafia at the same time. (Which is false)

Why I think Betiko could be town:
1. One of the most active in the game, assisting with defogging the game.

Other results that could go into mafia or town column:
1. Iron Butterfly STARTED the case on Betiko to make him claim on Day 3. (If IB is scum this makes betiko look a little better)
2. Betiko is defending IB and wants us to go after Mets. (If IB is scum this makes betiko look bad)

So as you can see. In my eyes alone, your scum/town fact ratio is lobsided. That is the only reason I think you are scum. Sometimes you can have "bad games" as town and the evidence just looks bad. But oh well it happens, if you flip town there is only a couple more suspects left I think we will be fine. Gustaf is pretty much guaranteed 1 more investigation and/or other townies as well as they should be getting gifts from Little Witt if he is not roleblocked.

[MoB Deadly]

Betiko if you are really town, and the mafia really did roleblock you JUST to make you more scummy. Realize that you are doing a greater deed for the entire town. Since they roleblocked you, Little Witt got to give out all his presents. We will be fine even if you are lynched tomorrow, we will deliver you a GA medal, do not worry!

[Little Witt]

Gosh you guys post a lot.

Again I can tell you who I gifted tonight if you need to.

But just an fyi I also gifted IB last night.

[pancakemix]

Betiko has apologized for his outburst, so I don't think anything further chastising is necessary. I will say there's no need to discuss egos or nationalities or anything of the like, so please keep it clean from here on. It's just a game.

[betiko]

Betiko if you are really town, and the mafia really did roleblock you JUST to make you more scummy. Realize that you are doing a greater deed for the entire town. Since they roleblocked you, Little Witt got to give out all his presents. We will be fine even if you are lynched tomorrow, we will deliver you a GA medal, do not worry!

he is indeed. My point is that if we move this to the betiko/mets debate:
1) if I'm lynched, you will see I'm town and will realize the whole plot. Like I said, I'm willing to sacrifice myself to make that point. Mafia is keeping me alive so all that I say only looks like scummy wifom. Mets could be viged tonight.
2) if mets is lynched and turns out to be scum as I've been saying since my second post on this game, we would either get rid of the roleblocker or the gift stealer, and we would pretty much clear me out for once and for good. If I'm wrong, I have to say that from my perspective I've partly ruined town's chances as you will have no other options than lynching me the next day for this wrong lead. But from your perspective, this would be a scum catch.

My prime suspects are of course mets, and I'm leaning towards rishaed for the second scum, as his roleclaim makes little sense if you look at the night 2 scene as I've already said. The drummer boy basically started walking in alone in the snow with his lamb and got killed. I think it's extremely odd that PCM would mention his character in the scene if this character is in the game and had nothing to do with that night action. I might be overthinking this, but please tak this into consideration. Also it would explain the day 1 first fight where I started being suspicious about rishaed about the gift stealing mechanic and mets threw back the fire at me.
Also, as I've already said, if by christmas magic they managed to get a town to become scum, that would be gustaf.

[Metsfanmax]

betiko, one of the reasons I am going against you personally so hard much more than mets, is because I KNOW how competitive and smart you are. Other players that are mafia would not play as aggressive as you are.

This is the major reason why I'm not presently pushing the betiko case as hard as you are. The facts all seem to line up, for me, to indicate that betiko is scum. Nevertheless, the way he brazenly talks, is so aggressive that I'm not 100% confident. He came so close to getting lynched on D3, and right now he's openly saying we should lynch either himself or me. He has to know that in a vote right now, he would lose, and if he is scum, that would be a huge blow for them. I know it's partially WIFOM, but it's something to consider.