Conquer Club

manicman wrote:

MR. Nate wrote:There is currently significant injustice in the world, including a large amount of unpunished sinners. That will eventually be rectified.

Could God have avoided putting Jesus on the Cross? Yes, He could have allowed all of humanity to roast in hell for their sins. In his infinite love, Christ offered himself as the payment for sin, so that man could enjoy fellowship with God. There was no way for sin to be atoned for without the cross.

You didn't read what I said. God does not decide what is right, nor is right somehow a law that is above him. God IS right. He is the definition of right. We are wrong only in that we are not aligned with the moral fiber of God.

1. If god were allways just he would rectify those sins now.
2.You are arguing in circles. What I am saying is couldn't god have forgaven humanity's sins without putting Christ on the cross?
3.And you sidestep the question again.If God is right then is it because he conformed to a concept of rightness that was there first or because he gets to choose what right is? Saying god is right is logically bad as god is a conscious entity and right is a concept of morals.

here's my answer to #2:yes but that would ruin the whole purpose of us having to willingly accept him as lord of our lives.

1 and 2 i don't know how to answer without cursing and raving, so i hope that helps.

griffin_slayer wrote:

manicman wrote:

MR. Nate wrote:There is currently significant injustice in the world, including a large amount of unpunished sinners. That will eventually be rectified.

Could God have avoided putting Jesus on the Cross? Yes, He could have allowed all of humanity to roast in hell for their sins. In his infinite love, Christ offered himself as the payment for sin, so that man could enjoy fellowship with God. There was no way for sin to be atoned for without the cross.

You didn't read what I said. God does not decide what is right, nor is right somehow a law that is above him. God IS right. He is the definition of right. We are wrong only in that we are not aligned with the moral fiber of God.

1. If god were allways just he would rectify those sins now.
2.You are arguing in circles. What I am saying is couldn't god have forgaven humanity's sins without putting Christ on the cross?
3.And you sidestep the question again.If God is right then is it because he conformed to a concept of rightness that was there first or because he gets to choose what right is? Saying god is right is logically bad as god is a conscious entity and right is a concept of morals.

here's my answer to #2:yes but that would ruin the whole purpose of us having to willingly accept him as lord of our lives.

1 and 2 i don't know how to answer without cursing and raving, so i hope that helps.

I would rather put it as such:

The only way for justice to be handed out would be for the punishment to be enforced. Thus God, being a just God, took the punishment upon himself and became sin and law for us thus putting it to death once and for all.


And to Mr. Nate, please clarify what you mean by "unpunished sinners". Because according to the Bible I read, there is no such thing as an "unpunished sinner." Everyone has been forgiven. Christians and non-Christians alike. All that is left for us to decide is whether or not we accept that.

can you be forgiven if you dont ask for forgiveness?

This will always be a stalemate until further evidence is found about jesus Christ or the evolution. There's no point debating about something that won't get anywhere, apart from a little knowledge gain time to time.

Skittles! wrote:This will always be a stalemate until further evidence is found about jesus Christ or the evolution. There's no point debating about something that won't get anywhere, apart from a little knowledge gain time to time.

Well, that little knowledge is good enough reason for me, and a good debate is fun and keeps you on your toes! It's the game that keeps you playing, not if you win or lose.

(not that I'm even involved in this one, but I felt it needed to be said)

Jehan wrote:can you be forgiven if you dont ask for forgiveness?

yes

MeDeFe wrote:Sorry, religious folks, but if you claim that you will have to accept that mass-murdering others CAN be ok in some situations, while in other situations it's not, and you never really know when it's which. God in the OT is a pretty unpredictable fellow to say the least. Sacrificing an animal is fine, but woe on you if you bring him any vegetables.

you've heard of war right? well all god did was tell them to go to war. he also helped them win.

[quote=guiscard]Omnibenevolent, Omnipotent[/quote]

you for got omnipresent

[quote=backglass]I agree that I will not change your mind. Perhaps you will change on your own as many do over time. Perhaps you will live a fantasy until you die. I disagree that your goal is not to "change minds". That is my biggest gripe with religions in general. Do what you want, but quit pushing it on me. [/quote]

our goal is not to change minds but to help people know and trust GOD. i know he exists because he's spoken to me.

heavycola wrote:"It seems to me that the most spurious of all the great religions is Christianity. Its biblical miracles are childish, pre-scientific myths. Its theology has been taken right out of the caldrons of blood sacrifice and appeasement. For God so loved the world that he allowed the crucifixion of his only son to appease his own wrath, and then he denied eternal life to billions of human souls who refused to accept the gory myth.

i have a friend who pulled a man out of a wheel chair and then the guy started dancing. now what was that about childish myths?

god is real deal with it enough said

Capt Killroy wrote:god is real deal with it enough said

With this attitude, I retract my eariler statement.

Killroy, do you have proof with that? I could say "My imaginary friend is the real deal", but you wouldn't believe me, because an imaginary friend normally comes with young children. Please, do you really have proof with that?

griffin_slayer wrote:

heavycola wrote:"It seems to me that the most spurious of all the great religions is Christianity. Its biblical miracles are childish, pre-scientific myths. Its theology has been taken right out of the caldrons of blood sacrifice and appeasement. For God so loved the world that he allowed the crucifixion of his only son to appease his own wrath, and then he denied eternal life to billions of human souls who refused to accept the gory myth.

i have a friend who pulled a man out of a wheel chair and then the guy started dancing. now what was that about childish myths?

I got pulled out of a wheelchair and started dancing once as well. I was drunk and it was very childish though not very mythical. I'd suggest maybe showing a little consideration for the feelings of all those people your God has chosen not to pull out of their wheelchairs before bandying around this sort of nonsense.

Bertros Bertros wrote:

griffin_slayer wrote:

i have a friend who pulled a man out of a wheel chair and then the guy started dancing. now what was that about childish myths?

I got pulled out of a wheelchair and started dancing once as well. I was drunk and it was very childish though not very mythical. I'd suggest maybe showing a little consideration for the feelings of all those people your God has chosen not to pull out of their wheelchairs before bandying around this sort of nonsense.

I don't think that was his point. But let me ask another question: why does "x" number of people not healed and out of wheel chairs negate the truth of the few, or even the one, who are?

griffin_slayer wrote:exactly, do you think the apostles would've died for a lie? i mean all they had to do was admit that it was a lie. take peter for example, he thought himself unworthy to die the same death as JESUS he asked to be crucified up side down. that's devotion.

What do Islamic suicide bombers die for?

Skittles! wrote:This will always be a stalemate until further evidence is found about jesus Christ or the evolution. There's no point debating about something that won't get anywhere, apart from a little knowledge gain time to time.

This is missing the point a bit. No further evidence is needed for Jesus, since people's belief in him rests on faith. As far as creationists go, no further, sufficiently convincing evidence will ever be found for evolution, because again, their rejection of evolution rests on faith.

So, in theory, this "debate" (and this thread) has the potential to last forever.

Isn't that a good thing?

And @ griffin_slayer, if you're going to dig up really old posts and make a one line comment, at least tell us on which page we can find them. Also: there's no need to make a dozen such posts, just put them in one slightly longer.

Bertros Bertros wrote: I got pulled out of a wheelchair and started dancing once as well. I was drunk and it was very childish though not very mythical. I'd suggest maybe showing a little consideration for the feelings of all those people your God has chosen not to pull out of their wheelchairs before bandying around this sort of nonsense.

I think you're missing an important part of healing. Christ said to the woman who came up and touched his robe "Your faith has healed you". This isn't God randomly saying "Hey, watch me pull a tumor outta that guy!" it is the medical benefit of having faith. You can call it the placebo effect, or whatever you like, and it certainly isn't proof of God's existence. It is, however, an indicator that faith is beneficial, and it's written evidence that the author of those words (even if you don't attribute them to Christ) apparently knew that two-thousand years before the medical community.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=50846

See “Medical Benefits of Faith” which cites 42 studies of over 125,000 patients indicating that faith has a medical benefit. ( It is inconclusive whether the benefit may come from the community or the faith, but who cares it’s still a benefit)

Is it nonsense when an athelete places faith in hard work and determination to overcome a horrible injury? No, but not every injury can be overcome through hard work and determination. So if an athlete puts faith in God that her hard work and determination, will pay off, even when doctors say it won't, that doesn't sound at all nonsensical. It may not work, but it may. There is no sense in giving up.

Here is another website citing articles suggesting wider medical benefits (physical, mental, and emotional) of faith.

http://www.1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_p ... nefits.htm

Stopper wrote:

Skittles! wrote:This will always be a stalemate until further evidence is found about jesus Christ or the evolution. There's no point debating about something that won't get anywhere, apart from a little knowledge gain time to time.

This is missing the point a bit. No further evidence is needed for Jesus, since people's belief in him rests on faith. As far as creationists go, no further, sufficiently convincing evidence will ever be found for evolution, because again, their rejection of evolution rests on faith.

So, in theory, this "debate" (and this thread) has the potential to last forever.

Faith causes things to happen. Also the point of this planet and people's earthly existance is to be challenged by Satan not to believe in God.

There will continue to be much more compelling evidence on both evolution and extra terrestrials placing us here, untill people's violent destructive behavior toward those that belong to Christ, finally becomes uncontrollable.

Guiscard wrote:

griffin_slayer wrote:exactly, do you think the apostles would've died for a lie? i mean all they had to do was admit that it was a lie. take peter for example, he thought himself unworthy to die the same death as JESUS he asked to be crucified up side down. that's devotion.

What do Islamic suicide bombers die for?

I think what griffen_slayer was trying to say was that the apostles would have known if the resurrection was a lie or not, because they would have made it up. So if they made up the lie, why would they die for it?

In the case of Islamic suicide bombers, they're committing suicide for a lie, yes, but not one that they had made up, just one they believe in.

2dimes wrote: Also the point of this planet and people's earthly existance is to be challenged by Satan not to believe in God.

I don't think I could disagree with you more.

griffin_slayer wrote:i have a friend who pulled a man out of a wheel chair and then the guy started dancing. now what was that about childish myths?

I don't want to appear as totally disagreeing with what you wrote, but I would be interested in the current condition of that man. It has been my experience that people can work themselves up into a religious frenzy and believe that they've been healed and then the illness returns later. Now, I must admit, I wasn't there when this event happened with your friend...so I can't discount it and I'm not trying to.

My personal faith is that God created man with the capacity to discover cures and treat illness through a variety of methods. Of course, I do believe that God heals people. It's been recorded in scripture. I've never personally experienced any "miraculous" healing, but I've seen God change my attitude on life.

luns101 wrote:

griffin_slayer wrote:i have a friend who pulled a man out of a wheel chair and then the guy started dancing. now what was that about childish myths?

I don't want to appear as totally disagreeing with what you wrote, but I would be interested in the current condition of that man. It has been my experience that people can work themselves up into a religious frenzy and believe that they've been healed and then the illness returns later. Now, I must admit, I wasn't there when this event happened with your friend...so I can't discount it and I'm not trying to.

My personal faith is that God created man with the capacity to discover cures and treat illness through a variety of methods. Of course, I do believe that God heals people. It's been recorded in scripture. I've never personally experienced any "miraculous" healing, but I've seen God change my attitude on life.

actually i understand what you're saying. and yes as far as i know he's still dancing and singing for joy.

CrazyAnglican wrote:http://www.1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_prayer_Benefits.htm

Too bad they don't give us even a single number to show just HOW big these benefits are. I mean, is it 1% or is it 20%?

2dimes wrote: Faith causes things to happen. Also the point of this planet and people's earthly existance is to be challenged by Satan not to believe in God.

There will continue to be much more compelling evidence on both evolution and extra terrestrials placing us here, untill people's violent destructive behavior toward those that belong to Christ, finally becomes uncontrollable.

I don't know what you mean by the second paragraph, but I wasn't using "faith" in a pejorative way, if that's what you thought. I was just pointing out that no further "evidence" is ever going to affect the debate either way, as Skittles seemed to be saying.