Much of day 1, i felt he was being inquisitive about players, poking here and there, and doing a good job analyzing the situations on hand. We ended up pushing a few of the same people (virus/ nark), yet at the end of the day its a bit of a struggle as to what he was trying to accomplish. Considering near the end, Possible lynches gaining more than a foothold to be lynched would include
Ultra, Virus, DD5, AoG.
I bring this up, because he was starting to push me a bit harder near the end of the day. 90% of his accusation had to do with "me vs pcm" I thought i was onto something, and i had to reconsider my position at the time, was i ignorantly turning the end of day 1, into the day 2 of our last game (our being me and pcm which was a shitfest day 2) I concluded that maybe the points i had thought to be stronger, had not been as strong as i thought, and yes i probably over exaggerated points against pcm. Things also helped pcm's case when he started to post a bit more frequently, and he decided to push someone that wasn't "myself"
This is relevant because strike wolf hasn't actually stop pushing me. He took some time off, to pressure dd5 for a claim, and once the claim was had that was it. (similar to now with hotshot) as soon as the claim happened, "all was good with that person"
strike wolf wrote:Not completely useless, if someone with a verifiable result (Not the cop someone less important to the game) was to investigate they could prove your role which is generally not a scum role. The only question is it worth our time to test it. Screw it. Unvote for now. I want to think this over for just a little bit and I am pretty sure he is leading by a good bit so no reason right now.
strike wolf wrote:vote AoG
DD's role can at least be supported and is unlikely to be scum. Ive stated my opinion earlier that I think there is a good chance that Ultra and Virus are town and are at the very least likely to be telling the truth about being lovers regardless of alignment. Busdriver is almost if not just as likely to be Mafia as town and I havent liked AoG's post pattern this game.
His reasons to vote/unvote are more game mechanical. Its not so much if he thinks the person is mafia or town, its more about can he make it apear that his vote is validated by what he is saying mechanically. The conclusions he has are fine, yet there is no deeper understanding to the player. At the end of the day when aog flips town, the response is just (note not actual response) "welp we had a town bus driver" HIs only comment regarding something aog has done that could be scummy would be "posting pattern" which is not something easily grasped, its more of a blank statement that has no filling.
So the end result of strike wolf day 1 still looks town, it felt like he was pushing me for real reasons, yet at the same time his perspective of my was very limited. "90% conversation regarding pcm" "5% my inquiring of zivel's lover" "5% of my misread on crasp comment" he wasn't really talking about my town reads, nor did he bring up other cases i presented and dashed them (note virus/ anark).
Day 2. This is where he really shows his true colors.
strike wolf wrote:Actually this is an interesting death since it could have easily been a town vig considering yesterday's scenario. It would not explain why there was only one death though.
Note, at this point he believes mtamburini to be the vig. This is very important if hotshot flips mafia. (Its also interesting that hotshot failed to mention this as a reason to "block" mtamburini, since that was on EVERYONE's mind no doubt day 1) (this doesn't have much relevance for today, but will hold more on day 3)
So back to why he has flipped from town to mafia in my eyes. Much of today's talk has revolved around 2 people, myself and hotshot, with supporting roles from mtamburini / aog early on. (and somewhat dd5)
strike wolf wrote:Real quickly as I domt have too much time right now. My impression right now is that between Hotshot, Storr, DD and AoG there are likely two or maybe even three scum (I would not put it past Storr or Hotshot to fake an argument if they were both scum or that they are both scum but differently aligned but Im not betting on that possibility.) It is also quite possible that multiple scum are lying low right now. Anyways:
Storr-I had moderately strong scum vibes from him yesterday. They are a little less today but not as much. I did not like how he seemed to try to gauge town's readiness to lynch AoG again before he had even posted. On the other hand, his initial case on Hotshot seemed more like the Storr I was accustomed to but it has kind of perplexed me how he seems to have abandoned some of his stronger points on the case and pressed the weaker ones.
2. Hotshot-found him mildly scummy day 1 and that hasnt changed much today. I have liked most of his answers to Storr's case but there is some contrast to how active he was once pressure began than beforehand.
3. DD-His play overall has been better today, IMO, however I still am not overly fond of his claim or how it has been a bit piecemeal in how it was put together.
4. AoG-not much to go on at the beginning of the day. My only issue came from when he was still Nark and a slight case I had made early day 1. Today, his posts thus far have been more up and down.
If I had to vote right now I would probably vote either Storr or DD, now that DD is claiming that his commute would not work tonight.
@Ultra: it isnt just reads or lack thereof that was bugging me. If you sont pay closer attention to cases and realize why Storr and Hotshot bringing up Virus is relevant to the game than even as a near confirmed townie, I cant take your reads too seriously because they are not fully informed on the game as it stands.
This post was SUPER frustrating to read. I know at this point that he still feels like i'm scum.
"abandoning stronger points for weaker points" The whole case is subjective, with people having different opinions on what has value and what doesn't have value. I can't defend this kind of statement form him, since he doesn't address the points he is talking about. This whole "hotshot case" at this point and largely just been me bashing my head vs hotshot, there was no outside discussion going on, so i find this comment to be poor in choice to use for the situation at hand.
The second point on hotshot, is the same formula, he makes a broad statement about everything he has said. "still doesn't like hotshot" yet "likes hotshot responses" This is a contradiction, since almost all of hotshots input at this point has had to deal with my case imo. and if not, there is little or no indication from strike wolf, what is still off about hotshot. The only thing he admits to, is how active he is when pressure was placed upon him. A note of change of behavior, good point but he doesn't go anywhere with this.
Now, i know this post was a precursor to what he wanted to say,thats fine. Objectively he doesn't accomplish anything right now. 1. he isn't helping with the push against hotshot. 2. He isn't actually leaving room for discussion to be had. 3. There is no call to action for people to do something. The absence of trying to get something done, or accomplishing anything with his post is imo scummy.
The main case strike wolf presents against Storr day 2
strike wolf wrote:@Storr v. Hotshot: Admittedly, I stated Hotshot originally because I felt that he had been ignored by Storr on things that Storr would normally jump on (notably commonly being online viewing the forum and then leaving without posting things). So, admittedly, I've been viewing everything here with a fairly skeptical eye. I liked Storr's initial push and I liked how Hotshot answered it. From there, I kind of get more and more cynical.
Its almost laughable at this kind of remark. have i done something similar to this? Sure, Who did I do this on day 1? Virus. Why virus? He had no post, then 1 post.. This entire remark is because "i should have noticed him viewing and not posting" I would have expected the "ignored" aspect to be followed up with, why strike wolf felt hotshot was scummy, and asking why i failed to pick up why hotshot was scummy.
Again, we have blank statements with no attachment to the interactions of hotshot /storr. (likes the push, likes the answers)
strike wolf wrote:@Storr: My point about your case moving from strong to weak was that you went from statements that legitimately pointed out some fluffy comments, odd/non-committal playstyle and some genuine concerns to talking about:
Fantastic we get to the meat of the problem. I really want to know what these genuine concerns i brought up are.
strike wolf wrote:a. Misrepresenting your Nark case as over a joke vote: Frankly, there were a lot of people who were on it because of the joke vote and I just don't see this.
Not sure how this has to do with hotshot. I mean i know why it has to deal with hotshot, yet your not talking about the situation of me vs hotshot regarding my anark push.
One of the points was hotshot was asked about this situation. by anamainiacks
anamainiacks wrote:Yep, heard of it, but the conversation has clearly moved past the joke vote phase. There has been proper conversation going on, and to continue pushing a joke vote at this point would just be pointless and distracting.
This is a 3rd party, backing up the anark push, in the sense that my push was not about a joke at this point. One of the points i bring up was hotshot not responding to this, or my comment.
strike wolf wrote:b. Who he was on in the Ultra wagon: This is bs. Scum who know Ultra is not aligned with them would not want him unlocking any abilities by shooting him either. In fact, they would be less willing to consider this a good option. Also generally scum do not like leaving loose ends. If they felt they could get a two for one, I would expect at least a few to take it. I would expect the scum votes to be split on Ultra and Virus but if they favored one side, I believe it would have been to lynch Virus. As far as "if you legitimately believed they were scum you would vote Virus". Yes and no. If you were about 85% sure that they were scum than a virus lynch is preferable. However it is definitely possible to believe that they are scum and not being willing to lynch two townies. Testing claims is part of the game. And really least information provided? We have a near confirmed townie out of the deal where the only way this is no longer true is if his alignment changed over night.
Your first point is not valid. It was a hunch he would unlock abilities. 2. hotshot had no idea if ultra would have the power to vig. IN any case if he DID know, then its even safer for him to push ultra over virus since ultra WANTS to be lynched over virus to prove a point.
The situation was a lover claiming to just be "confirmed town" upon being lynched with virus death. Thats a pretty nice thing for mafia, you have a townie that was being very distracting day 1, who is now going to be confirmed town, who doesn't have a large voice, who won't get shit done. This is a perfectly acceptable "loose" end for mafia to have, since it still deny's a lot of information. Again, no offense to ultra, but ultra was a weak town day 1. He is still a weak confirmed town day 2. My point stands (this was also if lynched, at the cost of virus). This whole point is an argument of opinion of me vs you, this isn't about hotshot any more. Infact, the way you bring it up, it isn't about hotshot.
strike wolf wrote:c. The whole who led Virus issue: Honestly, this isn't so much of a weak point as you just made it sound ridiculous with the whole "Invisible vote" nonsense.
Nope, I 100% stand by my "invisible" vote on virus. Again, this isn't about hotshot, its about you attacking me. The points made "hotshot /confirmed he liked all my points to why virus was scum" and then said "i was the first to vote virus". Those are the facts, this can be deemd scummy, in regards to sheeping, and misrepresenting how influential he was on pushing virus. Since his claim to "i was first on virus" was a response to being called out for bandwagoning on virus.
So yes, i believe i had valid points regarding hotshot virus, and your response is in regards to "invisible vote" and no talk about his push on virus, if it was a townie push, or a scummy push.
strike wolf wrote:d. Town reading: As others have pointed out it's not really a strong Hotshot attribute to point out all the people he believes are town day 1.
I never stated he points out all his townies. The point was he hadn't made any town reads day 1, and you counter with he doesn't "point out all the people he thinks are town day 1" This is more justification for him not having any town reads. Which is fine if you want to make that kind of a statement. My issue is it doesn't align with the argument at hand. You give him room on a play style that he does give town reads day 1, and they are often few.
strike wolf wrote:Now admittedly reading back through it there were somethings that stood out more and made more sense but overall I still feel like your case got weaker as it went along. At least until your analysis of his reads post. So yes it did bother me that your case on Hotshot felt like it went from well-reasoned and strong to rambly and weak. It also bugs me that others managed to bring some of the strongest points in short posts to the table when your case really had become weaker and weaker as it went on.
I don't understand why you avoid the good points i brought up. The whole arching point of these posts is "storr had bad attacks against hotshot" Yet the conclusion doesn't line up with the body of the post. He doesn't explain what was good about my push on hotshot. He doesn't explain Who these other people are that made "better points" on hotshot, nor does he explain "what these better points are". I'd even go to say, that most of these "stronger points" had been pulled in because of the pushing on hotshot i made, and hotshots responses. Does that mean anything? Its hard to tell since strike is being really vague about what he means.
Going to respond in colors for this one, (sorry pcm )
strike wolf wrote:As far as reading you scummy, I don't like a lot about your play the last two days. I know you pressed Nark early but you had long since moved on before the Ultra/virus lover issue had come up and bringing AoG up today still seemed like a push for the easy lynch (this has admittedly been complicated due to some of the interactions since).
Ok so what you don't like over 2 days so far, I pushed aog early which seemed like an easy lynch at start, but it got complicated since i pushed hotshot. I pushed anark and then he went afk (couldn't push him more)
I don't like how you seem to selectively read between the lines when it suits your benefit.
This was largely the point you made on the pcm case i assume.
Not reading between the lines in a Pancake post which would show that he was actually trying to figure a few things out or one incident where Hotshot did actually push a bit of a town read onto Zivel but you'll read between the lines on Hotshot disagreeing with you on the Nark case as calling you scummy.
Whoo this is important. Where did hotshot read zivel town day 1? This was a large point i made against hotshot, that he had no town reads, and now you state he did have a town read day 1 and pushed it? Why would you not bring this up? in quotes, this seems fairly important. (i think this isn't true considering hotshot made this statement today regarding having a town read on zivel day 1, and choosing to not voice his opinion on the matter)
So what do you think he was accomplishing with the attack on my case of nark (which had evolved past the joke at that point) to which a 3rd party responded, pointing out it wasn't about the joke at that point to which he didn't respond.
I didn't like how you had to be pushed into some things before you would actually address them (responding to a case on you, why you had a town read on someone day 1, stating your views on hotshot, etc.)
I explained why i was ignoring your case on me. 1 i didn't consider it serious, you didn't have a vote on me. 2, it was nearing end of the day and the focus was on ultra/virus/dd5/aog. Narrowing down what to do at that time was more important. 3. I had judged at the time, that i might be wrong about pcm, so stopping the conversation would be beneficial, since it was turning into more of a slugging competition of staggering posts. The matter imo, could be resolved day 2, or would resolve in the night.
The delay of reads, has often been to cause attention, and get people thinking about what i'm talking about. Hotshot in particular, i made sure people became aware of him, to read up on him and make sure they would be ready to judge with what i presented. Its a lot easier to convince someone about something if they have limited knowledge about someone. If i was full of shit about hotshot, and my case, it would be a lot easier to judge and cut down quickly since people would be aware of his play, and the case at hand. And since my reads have been always backed up, there hasn't been an opportunity of people to claim, i sheeped someone, or that my points are not my own. Its only scummy if i had claimed to do something, then failed to do it, or sheeped someone elses read with out giving insight to my own. So Your whole point seems to be an issue with playstyle and not for something thats actually scummy.
and I did not like how when someone actually pressed you on something that you said without explaining, you went off on them.
I would need context on this.
I don't like you posting your town read on Zivel as some grand town gesture when honestly, I consider it an easy read.
I made the same jester, on crasp, no comment on him? So what if its an easy town read, i made points and stated my opinion. Even if its an easy read, you can still judge zivel off the content i presented. You can still judge if what i came up makes sense, if it aligns with what you thought. Considering at the time, there was pressure on lynching one of the lover claims, and i made it clear that i thought zivel was not the option.
I mean I am pretty sure the major critics of Zivel were Mtam who stated that he believed all three lover pairs were town, AoG who no one was listening to and Virus/Ultra who had some bias in the matter. Beyond them, I believe the harshest critique of Zivel after the lover counterclaim was that we couldn't fully rule him out as a scum possibility. There was simply no legitimate risk of Zivel being lynched Day 1.
I don't think its fair for you to make that statement. Its hard to tell what would have happened, if people hadn't spoken up about their town read on zivel. Maybe tambo pushes zivel hard end of day over aog, and zivel is lynched because people don't speak up. Virus also didn't like zivel, and i'm sure a few others would have been happy to lynch him. SO considering how many people didn't speak up, we know at least 4-5 people spoke up as a possibility of lynching zivel.
strike wolf wrote:Of course at this point, Hotshot comes in with his list of reads and yeah...I want to hear more about this but right now, I have to agree mostly with Aage's assessment of it.
fantastic you want to hear more, do you follow up really? (not really)
strike wolf wrote:So after considering long and deliberately on this...Vote Hotshot. I think Aage actually made the best post on this with his break down of Hotshot's read and honestly, I was leaning more towards voting Storr before that.
This seems oddly confusing. 1. the amount of effort spent into explaining why i had a bad case against hotshot. 2. The lack of evidence of the good points i made. 3. Supporting hotshot lynch because others convinced you (more than 1, so in addition to aage). Not knowing who the other people are. 4. Not really explaining why you find hotshot scummy, all we have is other people who did a good job explaining how he was scummy. 5. thinking he was scummy day 1, but not really doing anything about it.
The claim, the pattern
[quote="strike wolf"Actually the better option to prove his role would be to have you target a known person and have him jailkeep them. Him jailing you would only prove that he has the role block potential which could belong to a mafia role blocker. It is the saving half that would be more town indicative, especially if that person could confirm to having been role blocked that night.
Unvote[/quote]
See this is scummy from strike. Earlier he wanted to see the follow up from hotshot about aage. Which he did follow up, and strike has no comment to make. + There is the continued pressure that strike make a more detailed read besides a 1 liner, which strike hasn't commented on. I would assume the lack of comment would be because he wants to know more, yet his actions indicate he wants to shut down hotshot discussion by avoiding it, and pressing myself. HIs explanation for the unvote, is entirely mechanical. There is no response from him regarding what he believes of hotshots alignment as of this moment, specially when he isn't following up on the hotshot lead he said he was interested in.
StorrZerg wrote:I did ask for more clarity. And your not actually explaining why what i'm doing is scummy. I've had a history with delaying reads. And you can't prove thats scummy. Since each time i've given my read, and its never been the case that "storr deff sheeped that other person" o "storr was deff piggy backing off someone else" its very clear i have my own motivation, and my own drive, and my own reads. I generally always explain why something changed, why something happens. Not to mention, i've all ready given reason WHY i'm not addressing strike wolf right now, I have business lynching hotshot right now.
strike wolf wrote:What you did was suggest that I should be shot:
These 2 posts are at very different times and don't really have a relationship. So its strange that he pairs them up, as if to say, no storr didn't look for clarity, he just wanted to lynch me. Which is false. He doesn't address anything i say in the comment either.
strike wolf wrote:But haven't given a read on me and won't until you've "decided" on Hotshot. Sorry but as far as I am concerned, this just sounds like you are trying to limit any time I have to make a defense against your statement which is particularly important since you know I have been busy the last couple of weeks. If this isn't incredibly scummy, it's incredibly stupid. Either way I think it's time you woke up from whatever fantasy land you like to frolic in.
Pretty weak reasoning considering we still have 3 days left at this point. And the comment was made with 4 days left. Plenty of substantial time, i'd give you that point if it was less than 48 hours. As it should be clear, i don't really care or pay attention to peoples RL concerns in this mafia game. I play at my own pace, and as the rules indicate, i assume everyone is able to post at least 1x every 24 hours. *(which is what the mod suggests). I'm sure this post will point out the clear issues i have with you this game, since i believe you are not playing like a town strike, your actions are more pro scum.
