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The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:56 pm
by Phatscotty
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:20 pm
by Army of GOD
1. That song was annoying
2. At 3:20, they show the double-ended dildo from GTA: San Andreas
AND NOW SERIOUS TIME:
I generally agree with everything, minus some of the things where it said "you get to choose what you want to do with your life" and it showed a picture of a cigarette, and then later it showed a picture of a potleaf and a martini glass.
I mean, ya, if none of those effected other people in the world then they'd be fine, but it's evident that they do, in one way or another. Like I, personally, can't stand the smell of smoke. And people have died from drunk-driving accidents or drunken rages.
Other than that though, it's all good. Too bad people are too easily corruptible.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:32 pm
by hairy potter
using your own logic, i am pleased to be able to whole-heartedly support my arguement in favour of the removal of benefits and the welfare system
-if someone is to own their own life then they can't rely on the government to subsist it. if you're relying on someone else for part of your life to be present, then they own that part of your life. if this is the case, your liberty is denied.
-if someone takes food, shelter etc. from the government then that is 'theft', as defined by your video. anyone taking something from the government without giving back is a thief. i would be interested to know what exactly it is that welfare recipients think they are giving the government in return for their housing/food etc.
to make the people truly free, they must be freed from reliance on the state.
i also have to admit that i agree with AoG. you only get to choose what you do with your life if that choice doesn't negatively affect someone else.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:38 pm
by Army of GOD
It's difficult though, because not everyone starts on equal footing. Some people spend most of their life just trying to dig out of the hole that their parents created for them.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:46 pm
by hairy potter
some people spend their whole lives blaming their parents/the government/aliens for their problems, living on benefits rather than doing something about it.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:54 pm
by Phatscotty
Army of GOD wrote:1. That song was annoying
2. At 3:20, they show the double-ended dildo from GTA: San Andreas
AND NOW SERIOUS TIME:
I generally agree with everything, minus some of the things where it said "you get to choose what you want to do with your life" and it showed a picture of a cigarette, and then later it showed a picture of a potleaf and a martini glass.
I mean, ya, if none of those effected other people in the world then they'd be fine, but it's evident that they do, in one way or another. Like I, personally, can't stand the smell of smoke. And people have died from drunk-driving accidents or drunken rages.
Other than that though, it's all good. Too bad people are too easily corruptible.
yeah, I see your point there. as far as the potleaf goes, if we had the freedom to grow our own shit, then it really would not harm anyone.
drinking and driving, that is a tough one. human error still is not curable. I just dont like the premise of that becuase it's too easy to say that the sun has killed a million times more people, or asbestos. Nobody is arguing there should be liberty to drink and drive if you feel like it. I am sure the author intended the martini glass as a "personal choice" as to what to consume/not consume.
and on the music,m I found the groove rather crunchy
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:06 pm
by saxitoxin
hairy potter wrote:using your own logic, i am pleased to be able to whole-heartedly support my arguement in favour of the removal of benefits and the welfare system
to make the people truly free, they must be freed from reliance on the state.
Including the NHS? Or do you make an exception for that because it's a welfare benefit you receive?
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:12 pm
by The Bison King
I generally agree with everything, minus some of the things where it said "you get to choose what you want to do with your life" and it showed a picture of a cigarette, and then later it showed a picture of a potleaf and a martini glass.
I mean, ya, if none of those effected other people in the world then they'd be fine, but it's evident that they do, in one way or another. Like I, personally, can't stand the smell of smoke. And people have died from drunk-driving accidents or drunken rages.
Ok I agree with the drunk driving comment, and to a degree the cigarette, but how does pot negatively affect other people?
to make the people truly free, they must be freed from reliance on the state.
I agree with this as well.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:13 pm
by hairy potter
saxitoxin wrote:hairy potter wrote:using your own logic, i am pleased to be able to whole-heartedly support my arguement in favour of the removal of benefits and the welfare system
to make the people truly free, they must be freed from reliance on the state.
Including the NHS? Or do you make an exception for that because it's a welfare benefit you receive?
i pay my taxes so that i can make use of the NHS. it isn't a handout in the way that unemployment benefits are.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:15 pm
by The Bison King
According to this video shouldn't paying taxes and receiving government benefits be a choice and not a requirement?
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:18 pm
by hairy potter
The Bison King wrote:According to this video shouldn't paying taxes and receiving government benefits be a choice and not a requirement?
i voted for this government, so i chose to have a system that works this way. and i agree with the way our government operates. sure, there are some things that i find objectionable (such as the 50p tax rate), but life can never be exactly the way you want it to be all of the time.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:20 pm
by saxitoxin
hairy potter wrote:i pay my taxes so that i can make use of the NHS. it isn't a handout in the way that unemployment benefits are.
1. Unless you're making over £150,000 and paying the 50% rate, it is a handout. The net of benefits you receive is in excess of the amount you put in through taxes.
2. You said "to make the people truly free, they must be freed from reliance on the state." How are you free if your medical care is reliant on the state? You have only one health insurance option, operated by the state, participation in which is compulsory. The state pulled you out of your mother's vagina, the state nurses you back to health when you are sick, the state mends your wounds when you're injured. You are reliant on the state for your very life. There are few more reliant on the state than you.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:22 pm
by The Bison King
hairy potter wrote:The Bison King wrote:According to this video shouldn't paying taxes and receiving government benefits be a choice and not a requirement?
i voted for this government, so i chose to have a system that works this way. and i agree with the way our government operates. sure, there are some things that i find objectionable (such as the 50p tax rate), but life can never be exactly the way you want it to be all of the time.
Right but say you weren't content with your government. Should you have another choice short of leaving the country, and hoping somewhere else fit's you better.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:27 pm
by saxitoxin
The Bison King wrote:
to make the people truly free, they must be freed from reliance on the state.
I agree with this as well.
People can only be freed from reliance on the state if the state is ended.
The first right that exists in any proto society is the right of association.
In the system of states it is the first right that is trampled.
The moment you are born you are forced to associate with the state through citizenship. You cannot renounce your citizenship without becoming a stateless person, subject to confinement. A right is not protected where the exercise of that right would lead to imprisonment.
If people wish to be free the State must be destroyed. It does not have to happen overnight, it can (should) be graduated into, but it must happen.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:28 pm
by hairy potter
saxitoxin wrote:hairy potter wrote:i pay my taxes so that i can make use of the NHS. it isn't a handout in the way that unemployment benefits are.
1. Unless you're making over £150,000 and paying the 50% rate, it is a handout. The net of benefits you receive is in excess of the amount you put in through taxes.
2. You said "to make the people truly free, they must be freed from reliance on the state." How are you free if your medical care is reliant on the state? You have only one health insurance option, operated by the state, participation in which is compulsory. You are reliant on the state for your very life; you are perhaps the most reliant on the state.
1. it's a mutual exchange, where i agree to give a certain amount of tax and the government agrees that i can use the NHS in return. doesn't matter if it's a lop-sided deal, it fits that video's criteria of what makes something an exchance.
2. my relationship with the NHS is that of an exchange - i put in taxes and get back healthcare - which makes it non-reliance. reliance on the state is taking what you could not otherwise pay for. i have private health insurance, which probably demonstrates that i don't have too much need for the NHS.
by the token of your logic, everyone is reliant on everyone. you're reliant on your shops for food and clothing etc. either you say that no one is truly independent until they're completely self-subsisting, or you accept that having the money to pay for things is the modern self-subsistence.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:33 pm
by hairy potter
The Bison King wrote:Right but say you weren't content with your government. Should you have another choice short of leaving the country, and hoping somewhere else fit's you better.
my choice is vote for a new government. short of declaring that democracy is broken and that all governance should be totally erredicated, democracy is the closest we are going to come to full choice in all areas of our lives.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:33 pm
by Metsfanmax
Why do people view their representative government as a force that's out to get them?
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:34 pm
by saxitoxin
hairy potter wrote:
1. it's a mutual exchange, where i agree to give a certain amount of tax and the government agrees that i can use the NHS in return. doesn't matter if it's a lop-sided deal, it fits that video's criteria of what makes something an exchance.
To
agreeis to achieve voluntary understanding. If you do not have an option to enter into the understanding it is
coercion.
hairy potter wrote:doesn't matter if it's a lop-sided deal, it fits that video's criteria of what makes something an exchance.
Then all welfare beneficiaries exist on equal par with you.
Assuming they pay any kind of tax, even net less than the value of benefits they receive, an exchange has occurred by your definition.
As welfare beneficiaries still pay the VAT, welfare beneficiaries are engaging in exchange with the state and all welfare benefits are equal, whether the milk allowance, the housing subsidy or the NHS.
hairy potter wrote:2. my relationship with the NHS is that of an exchange - i put in taxes and get back healthcare - which makes it non-reliance.
Again, unless you're paying the 50% rate - which in a previous thread you indicated you were not - you put in less taxes than the sum value of services you receive. Just like a welfare recipient. You are a welfare recipient.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:35 pm
by hairy potter
saxitoxin wrote:If people wish to be free the State must be destroyed. It does not have to happen overnight, it can (should) be graduated into, but it must happen.
if you're happy to return to growing your own vegetables and making your own clothes then fine, but life as we know it couldn't possibly exist without governance.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:37 pm
by saxitoxin
Metsfanmax wrote:Why do people view their representative government as a force that's out to get them?
A so-called "representative government" doesn't represent the up-to 49% of people who chose not to empower it. Therefore, the west's so-called "representative governments" should be more accurately called "58% representative government" - or whatever is the percentage mandate du jour.
Everything is more defensible if you hijack the language before you define it. "Representative government" = "Ministry of Peace."
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:39 pm
by saxitoxin
hairy potter wrote:saxitoxin wrote:If people wish to be free the State must be destroyed. It does not have to happen overnight, it can (should) be graduated into, but it must happen.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:42 pm
by hairy potter
saxitoxin wrote:To agreeis to achieve voluntary understanding. If you do not have an option to enter into the understanding it is coercion.
a good accountant could have most of most people's taxes saved. i choose not to tax-dodge.
saxitoxin wrote:Then all welfare beneficiaries exist on equal par with you.
Assuming they pay any kind of tax, even net less than the value of benefits they receive, an exchange has occurred by your definition.
As welfare beneficiaries still pay the VAT, welfare beneficiaries are engaging in exchange with the state and all welfare benefits are equal, whether the milk allowance, the housing subsidy or the NHS.
my arguement is that i am not reliant on the state, but they are. i pay the state for these perks, but i have the money to buy them from elsewhere if i choose. welfare recipients take what the state gives them, because they have no money to look elsewhere.
plus, welfare recipients aren't paying national insurance. this is the tax that covers pensions, benefits etc., as well as partly contributing to the NHS. any welfare paid for by national insurance (which is most of it) is therefore being given to them free of charge.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:43 pm
by Metsfanmax
saxitoxin wrote:Metsfanmax wrote:Why do people view their representative government as a force that's out to get them?
A so-called "representative government" doesn't represent the up-to 49% of people who chose not to empower it. Therefore, the west's so-called "representative governments" should be more accurately called "58% representative government" - or whatever is the percentage mandate du jour.
Everything is more defensible if you hijack the language before you define it. "Representative government" = "Ministry of Peace."
By the simple act of voting, you imply consent to the legitimacy of the
system, regardless of which candidates win. It's incredibly irrational and illogical to legitimize a system by taking a civic part in it, and then turn around and complain that it is no longer a legitimate system once the system does something you don't like.
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:44 pm
by hairy potter
saxitoxin wrote:hairy potter wrote:
why must you insist on viewing any form of support for 'the system' as something that makes me a stupid sheep?
1 - maybe, just maybe, the system does actually work. i'm sorry if it screwed you over.
2 - who says i'm not part of the circle that run the system?
Re: The Philosophy of Liberty
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:46 pm
by saxitoxin
hairy potter wrote:saxitoxin wrote:To agreeis to achieve voluntary understanding. If you do not have an option to enter into the understanding it is coercion.
a good accountant could have most of most people's taxes saved. i choose not to tax-dodge.
non sequitur
hairy potter wrote:saxitoxin wrote:Then all welfare beneficiaries exist on equal par with you.
Assuming they pay any kind of tax, even net less than the value of benefits they receive, an exchange has occurred by your definition.
As welfare beneficiaries still pay the VAT, welfare beneficiaries are engaging in exchange with the state and all welfare benefits are equal, whether the milk allowance, the housing subsidy or the NHS.
my arguement is that i am not reliant on the state, but they are. i pay the state for these perks, but i have the money to buy them from elsewhere if i choose. welfare recipients take what the state gives them, because they have no money to look elsewhere.
For the third time, you receive value in excess of what you put in. So do welfare recipients. You are a welfare recipient.
saxitoxin wrote:plus, welfare recipients aren't paying national insurance. this is the tax that covers pensions, benefits etc., as well as partly contributing to the NHS. any welfare paid for by national insurance (which is most of it) is therefore being given to them free of charge.
non sequitur