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I had a dream.... about beta (MapMaker Killer series: MMK)
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:36 am
by DJENRE
LIST OF BETA MAPS UPDATED
Hi all,
I played beta Middle age and an idea came through. Could we organize a tourney directly when a beta map shows up.
Players will fight in a tourney and for those who reach the finale, they can play directly VS the creator of the map.
If the map creator is ok, he tells me how he wants the finale :
- Number of players in finale
Format of the finale : 1vs1, 4 players, 6players...
Settings of the finale : standard, assassin, spoils, reinforcment, fog...
How the final will work : best of three games, round robin...
He can also give preferences for the whole tournament. If not, I take care to do a tourney wich will match the finale. 
Once it's done, I take care of organizing everything :
- Create the tournament
Found players
Send games....
Until the finale where the creator will show up to fight other players on his own map. Should be a minimum of three games in finale (maybe 5). Depending the format of the finale.
Play those tournaments on beta maps give the opportunity to players to test it quicker and give a feedback on map foudry forum. We could also add a link to the thread while creating the tourney.
I think Map foundry is too often read only by cartographers...
Maps in final forge are for now :
- You agree with that
You have any other ideal about it
Could be a nice idea, let me know.
Sincerely
DJENRE
UPDATE about what have been discussed on thread : KIND OF RESUME
MapMaker Killer series have been created to give players the opportunity to try new beat map and fight the MapMaker on his own map.
As those map are still building, players can give a feedback on maps through the Map Foundry forum. A link to the appropriate thread will be set for each tournament.
#1 are main rules.
# 1-01
Any tournament of MMK series will count a minimum of 48 players.
# 1-02
As it will be played on beta maps and because many players won't know that map, NO FOG is highly recommended.
# 1-03
To have a real feeling about those beta maps, NO SPOILS or NUCLEAR are highly recommended.
#2 are about the MM (MapMakers=Cartographers)
# 2-01
MM are allowed to play directly in the finale. But they can't win no tournament medals as It would be unfair for other players.
# 2-02
MM choose the format and settings for the finale. They also tell number of players they want in finale.
# 2-03
MM can also give the whole tournament format and number of players. If not, the organizer will set the tournament to match with MM criteria for finale.
# 2-04
MM can ask to pass over rules #1-02 & #1-03 if they explain clearly why It could not be with those settings. Will be told on thread if needed.
#3 are for players who enter the MMK series.
# 3-01
Each player who enters MMK series agreewill try to give a quick feedback on the appropriate thread after they played on Map. Tell what you think about the map or just say it's fine like that.
# 3-02
Each player will play a minimum of 2 games in the 1st round. That gives players the opportunity to adress an appropriate feedback.
# 3-03
As it will be hard to qualify the finale and fight the MM, any finalist will be allowed to play 3 games minimum VS the MM.
[OFFICIAL] : refused
NEW MEDAL : refused
Special sig for winners : to be confirmed
coul be something like this one :
- Click image to enlarge.
but I'm sure cartographer can do much better.
this one is much better I think :
- Click image to enlarge.
Please read MMK main rules before you start filling that form.
PLEASE QUOTE THAT MESSAGE BEFORE YOU FILL IT.
Name of your map :
Becomes beta on :
put the date here please
Link to your thread :
Where there will be feedbacks posted.
Last image of your map :
Name of the MapMaker(s) :
also tell who did what if needed
Are you premium? :
Will it be a single or team tournament? :
FORMAT OF THE FINALE
Number of players/team left in finale :
Type of game :
Round Robin, 1vs1, 4 players, 6 players...
Type of win :
best of three, best of five, most points in round robin....
Game type :
standard, assassin, terminator
Initial troops :
automatic or manual
Spoils :
No spoils or Nuclear is higly recommended (see MMK main rules)
Reinforcements :
Chained, adjacent, unlimited
Fog of war :
No fog is higly recommended (see MMK main rules)
COMMENTS :
You can tell everything you want about the finale here.
FORMAT OF THE WHOLE TOURNAMENT
If you don't want to fill that part, I'll do it myself and I'll make sure that matches with your finale settings.
Number of players/team starting the tournament :
Type of game :
How many round do you want before finale? :
Settings :
only tell if you prefer same settings than the finale, mixed settings to have better feedbacks, or other settings.
COMMENTS :
You can tell everything you want about the tournament here.
MESSAGE FOR PLAYERS ENTERING YOUR MMK
You can write here a little message for the players who will enter the tournaments :
This message will be paste top of the thread to show players you're ready to fight!!!
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:48 am
by DJENRE
MESSAGE TO SEND FOR MAPS BECOMING BETA
- Click image to enlarge.
You should know that MMK are tournaments set to help cartographer to have better feedbacks about their maps.
Maybe you'd like MMK IV to be set on your map: xxxxxxx
Many cartographers are already in MMK series. (some are already playing, some are waiting for the Beta test) SEE HERE!
You can read the main rules if you have time. I put a format in the spoiler to fill if you want.
Don't worry if you don't have a lot of time for this, I can take care of everything and you just show in the finale.
Sincerely
DJENRE
MMK : Be a MapMaker Killer
- Click image to enlarge.
Please read MMK main rules before you start filling that form.
PLEASE QUOTE THAT MESSAGE BEFORE YOU FILL IT.
Name of your map :
Becomes beta on :
put the date here please
Link to your thread :
Where there will be feedbacks posted.
Last image of your map :
Name of the MapMaker(s) :
also tell who did what if needed
Are you premium? :
Will it be a single or team tournament? :
FORMAT OF THE FINALE
Number of players/team left in finale :
Type of game :
Round Robin, 1vs1, 4 players, 6 players...
Type of win :
best of three, best of five, most points in round robin....
Game type :
standard, assassin, terminator
Initial troops :
automatic or manual
Spoils :
No spoils or Nuclear is higly recommended (see MMK main rules)
Reinforcements :
Chained, adjacent, unlimited
Fog of war :
No fog is higly recommended (see MMK main rules)
COMMENTS :
You can tell everything you want about the finale here.
FORMAT OF THE WHOLE TOURNAMENT
If you don't want to fill that part, I'll do it myself and I'll make sure that matches with your finale settings.
Number of players/team starting the tournament :
Type of game :
How many round do you want before finale? :
Settings :
only tell if you prefer same settings than the finale, mixed settings to have better feedbacks, or other settings.
COMMENTS :
You can tell everything you want about the tournament here.
MESSAGE FOR PLAYERS ENTERING YOUR MMK
You can write here a little message for the players who will enter the tournaments :
This message will be paste top of the thread to show players you're ready to fight!!! 
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:01 am
by perchorin
The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:08 am
by DJENRE
perchorin wrote:The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.
Yes, you're right about the medal and the final. Except if we tell the players that is a special "beta" tournament and that the mapmaker reach the finale directly. But I don't know if it's against cc rules. If it's not, we could do that.
ANd mapmker is not getting a medal after winning 1 game if it's best of 5 in finale for exemple, he will need 3 victories. But problem remain the same for a finale 4 players round robin for exemple.
CC rule tell that nobody can win a tournament without three games
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:30 am
by mcshanester29
I think that it would be a good idea as far as I could see as long as the finale is best of 5 it should be okay according to tourney rules. I do agree about the final but as long as it is stated in the tourney info I see no problem with it.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:26 am
by natty dread
Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps...
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:50 am
by DJENRE
natty_dread wrote:Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps...
You're maybe right but it's fun to fight mapmaker on his own map...
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:22 am
by Blitzaholic
It is not a bad idea, but, I would not make it mandatory, but, optional.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:53 am
by Industrial Helix
natty_dread wrote:Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps...
That's what I was thinking, so it might not be a grand finale for the tournament... but it would be fun. I'll do it.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:39 am
by FarangDemon
Great idea. When Thailand goes Beta, I will participate. If
grifftron has enough slots, I'm sure he'd join my team.
I recommend the following settings for Thailand:
Settings
Triples, automatic, sequential, no spoils, chained, sunny
Roster
8, 16 or 32 teams, depending on interest
Format
Make it single elimination format, winner of single game advances until there are 4 teams left.
Finale
These four teams plus the mapmaker team play in a round robin, one game against each team. Team with best record from round robin wins, in case of a tie, the winner is the team that won head-to-head. If multiple teams tie, another round robin commences minus the team that clearly lost until there is just one winner.
Satisfies 3-Win Requirement
This 5-team round robin format ensures that the winner has won at least 3 games. To win the round robin, a team would need record of 4-0 or 3-1. Only way 2-2 can be best record of round robin is if all 5 teams are 2-2, necessitating a redo of the round. Any subsequent winner would then have to have won at least 3 more games from the redo round.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:50 am
by DJENRE
Blitzaholic wrote:It is not a bad idea, but, I would not make it mandatory, but, optional.
Of course, of course.
Any player, including mapmakers, can say he doesn't want to join...
This thread is just to see the main feeling about this idea.
Every beta tourney will be checked with mapmaker and only those (mapmakers) who want to participate will do.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:52 am
by DJENRE
Industrial Helix wrote:natty_dread wrote:Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps...
That's what I was thinking, so it might not be a grand finale for the tournament... but it would be fun. I'll do it.
Yes but we don't care.
Somebody else told me about medals.
In those tourney, I think the winner will prefer to say "I won a mapmaker on his own map on tourney" than "I won a tourney medal".
That's just to make it funnier.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:03 am
by DJENRE
FarangDemon wrote:Great idea. When Thailand goes Beta, I will participate. If
griffton has enough slots, I'm sure he'd join my team.
I recommend the following settings for Thailand:
Format
Make it single elimination format, winner of single game advances until there are 4 teams left.
Finale
These four teams plus the mapmaker team play in a round robin, one game against each team. Team with best record from round robin wins, in case of a tie, the winner is the team that won head-to-head. If multiple teams tie, another round robin commences minus the team that clearly lost until there is just one winner.
Satisfies 3-Win Requirement
This 5-team round robin format ensures that the winner has won at least 3 games. To win the round robin, a team would need record of 4-0 or 3-1. Only way 2-2 can be best record of round robin is if all 5 teams are 2-2, necessitating a redo of the round. Any subsequent winner would then have to have won at least 3 more games from the redo round.
Ok, that's cool, we'll determinate details later but that's nice you already want to participate and filled the form entirely.
The only thing is that each team play only one game VS the mapmakerteam in finale.
I can make a format until there are 3 teams left + you = 4 teams in finale. Then :
- a) If u agree a 8 players in double. we could play 5 games in total (with points). Each finalist team will play then 5 games VS MM (Map makers)
b) If u prefer 4 players in double. we could play twice each other team = 6 team match in total for each team in finale including 2 VS MM.
What do you think about it?
The main thing is : if a player or a team reach finale to play MM, he(it) want(s) to play at least 2 or 3 games...
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:32 pm
by MarshalNey
Industrial Helix wrote:natty_dread wrote:Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps...
That's what I was thinking, so it might not be a grand finale for the tournament... but it would be fun. I'll do it.
Ahhh natty, you're too humble. Don't you see it isn't the
challenge factor that makes it a grand finale, but the
celebrity factor? Especially if the mapmaker's name is included on the tourney name, or prominent in the rules, you know, played-up theatrically. I remember the very first time I played a mapmaker on his own map, I was tickled, but I was the only one who knew I think... because not many people read the signatures, much less the map threads.
So, I do think you should publicize the mapmaker's name somewhere in the tourney thread, so players know who the mapmaker is when they reach the final.
Otherwise, I think this is a wonderful idea, and a better integration of the different areas of CC. The Foundry could make some good use of Tourneys as Beta testing grounds, using custom settings and high-quality players. Also, it would be good to know if a map makes a 'good' Tourney map; after all that's the main area of map usage besides Clan challenges.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:48 pm
by DJENRE
MarshalNey wrote: Ahhh natty, you're too humble. Don't you see it isn't the challenge factor that makes it a grand finale, but the celebrity factor? Especially if the mapmaker's name is included on the tourney name, or prominent in the rules, you know, played-up theatrically. I remember the very first time I played a mapmaker on his own map, I was tickled, but I was the only one who knew I think... because not many people read the signatures, much less the map threads.
So, I do think you should publicize the mapmaker's name somewhere in the tourney thread, so players know who the mapmaker is when they reach the final.
Otherwise, I think this is a wonderful idea, and a better integration of the different areas of CC. The Foundry could make some good use of Tourneys as Beta testing grounds, using custom settings and high-quality players. Also, it would be good to know if a map makes a 'good' Tourney map; after all that's the main area of map usage besides Clan challenges.
First of all, thank you so much, u exactly understand what Im trying to do.
- 1) I want the people entering the tourney know why they're playing, and who will be the mapmaker they'll found in finale.
2) so name of the mapmaker will be in the first lines of the thread in large letters.
3) and also a biggest feedback from players while games are still beta
4) When I did that post, I hoped nobody move it into tournament folder. I wanted that idea confirmed by cartographer first.
As many people feel ok about it, I'm going to create a quick example of what could be the thread for those tournament. I'll make it with vietnam cause I already have settings from mapmakers. See ya!
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:17 pm
by DJENRE
This is just a quick example
I'll also tell nightstrike to have a look on that thread first to see if everything is correct.
MMK I : Vietnam - Be the MapMaker Killer [TEAM][1/32]
Be the
MAPMAKER KILLER
I : Vietnam
Get your ticket to the finale and fight in triple FarangDemon & grifftron & ???????, the MAPMAKERS
On your way up to the finale, you will pass through many steps set by the MAPMAKERS :
Settings
Triples, automatic, sequential, no spoils, chained, sunny
Roster
32 triples teams
Format
Single elimination format, winner of single game advances until there are 4 teams left.
Finale : MapMaker team enter the tournament
These four teams plus the mapmaker team play in a round robin, one game against each team.
Team with best record from round robin wins, in case of a tie, the winner is the team that won head-to-head.
If multiple teams tie, another round robin commences minus the team that clearly lost until there is just one winner.
FarangDemon & grifftron & ???????, the MAPMAKERS are waiting for you in finale.
Maybe you could say : "I hit them on their own map, I'm a MapMaker Killer now"
Once you enter that tournament, you accept to give a feedback (If you have something interesting to say!) on that map (click that link) :
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=100058
Feedback are important as those maps are beta. MapMakers could add little changes to make it better before maps become active.
Good Game
DJENRE
I'll also add colors and everything needed to make it nicer and also more rules about the tourney.
What could be beautiful is to have a
special medal like a MMK medal only available on those tournaments. But if they do, it will be more rules like minimum number of players to obtain medals, and many more...
But I can't do nothing about that, so if the idea come true about those tournaments, maybe one of you (coloured names) could ask for a special medal.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:43 pm
by MrBenn
I know from experience that some tournament organisers do run tournaments on beta maps - to my surprise I actually won one on my England map when it was first launched!
I'm thinking that this conversation might be more appropriate within the tournaments forum... [moved]
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:56 pm
by DJENRE
Nooooooooooooooo
DJENRE wrote:
First of all, thank you so much, u exactly understand what Im trying to do.
- 1) I want the people entering the tourney know why they're playing, and who will be the mapmaker they'll found in finale.
2) so name of the mapmaker will be in the first lines of the thread in large letters.
3) and also a biggest feedback from players while games are still beta
4) When I did that post, I hoped nobody move it into tournament folder. I wanted that idea confirmed by cartographer first.
As many people feel ok about it, I'm going to create a quick example of what could be the thread for those tournament. I'll make it with vietnam cause I already have settings from mapmakers. See ya!
Please mr benn, I want to confirm many things with cartographers and have a feedback from nightstrike before we show anything in tournament forum.
Could you replace it in Map foudry please?
MarshalNey wrote: Otherwise, I think this is a wonderful idea, and a better integration of the different areas of CC. The Foundry could make some good use of Tourneys as Beta testing grounds, using custom settings and high-quality players. Also, it would be good to know if a map makes a 'good' Tourney map; after all that's the main area of map usage besides Clan challenges.
Please Please Please
DJENRE
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:48 pm
by Night Strike
DJENRE wrote:perchorin wrote:The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.
Yes, you're right about the medal and the final. Except if we tell the players that is a special "beta" tournament and that the mapmaker reach the finale directly. But I don't know if it's against cc rules. If it's not, we could do that.
ANd mapmker is not getting a medal after winning 1 game if it's best of 5 in finale for exemple, he will need 3 victories. But problem remain the same for a finale 4 players round robin for exemple.
CC rule tell that nobody can win a tournament without three games
The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:52 pm
by DJENRE
Night Strike wrote:
The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.
Night Strike,
Thank you for those indications.
While you're here, can u read last two posts (before yours) if you can do something and if you agree. (moved)
I would really like that cartographer can follow that post few more days. And I'm sure they will not if this thread in is the tournament forum.
Thank you
DJENRE
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:07 pm
by MarshalNey
Night Strike wrote:DJENRE wrote:perchorin wrote:The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.
Yes, you're right about the medal and the final. Except if we tell the players that is a special "beta" tournament and that the mapmaker reach the finale directly. But I don't know if it's against cc rules. If it's not, we could do that.
ANd mapmker is not getting a medal after winning 1 game if it's best of 5 in finale for exemple, he will need 3 victories. But problem remain the same for a finale 4 players round robin for exemple.
CC rule tell that nobody can win a tournament without three games
The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.
I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.
For instance, what about a Whac-a-Mod type of scorekeeping, where the winner of the tournament is the player/team that eliminated the mapmaker(s) the most times in the finale? Or won the most games in the finale (not counting the mapmaker wins)?
That way, the mapmaker makes a 'guest' appearance as an obstacle/target, but doesn't have a stake in winning the tourney-- just winning the games and not losing points
There might be many mapmakers that would be flattered to take part and wouldn't need the enticement of a Tournament Medal to participate.
I've never made a Tourney, but would this idea fit within the guidelines?
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:20 pm
by DJENRE
MarshalNey wrote: I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.
For instance, what about a Whac-a-Mod type of scorekeeping, where the winner of the tournament is the player/team that eliminated the mapmaker(s) the most times in the finale? Or won the most games in the finale (not counting the mapmaker wins)?
That way, the mapmaker makes a 'guest' appearance as an obstacle/target, but doesn't have a stake in winning the tourney-- just winning the games and not losing points
There might be many mapmakers that would be flattered to take part and wouldn't need the enticement of a Tournament Medal to participate.
I've never made a Tourney, but would this idea fit within the guidelines?
I agree, the mapmakers, even if they don't get a medal, should be proud to defend their own map in finale. They could be under the spotlights in the thread and during the tourney. Most of the cartographers are unknown by players even if they do a great job.
About the finale, I think we have quiet the same idea but what is a Whac-a-Mod?
For the finale, if any player (/ team) can reach conditions to win the tourney, he becomes a mapmaker killer and get a tourney medal. If nobody can reach the number of victories needed or conditions needed, the Mapmaker stay as the master of his own map. And we could play another tournament in this case.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:01 pm
by FarangDemon
DJENRE wrote:MarshalNey wrote: I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.
Yes, for the record I agree as well. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.
DJENRE, I like your Whac-a-Mod idea in theory. I would be proud to defend the Thailand map. But it would be too many games for my liking, and I have clan obligations. So I'd prefer to just enter tourney as a regular combatant. Anyway, we can finalize details when the map actually becomes beta....
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:30 pm
by DJENRE
FarangDemon wrote: Yes, for the record I agree as well. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.
DJENRE, I like your Whac-a-Mod idea in theory. I would be proud to defend the Thailand map. But it would be too many games for my liking, and I have clan obligations. So I'd prefer to just enter tourney as a regular combatant. Anyway, we can finalize details when the map actually becomes beta....
Yes I understand the problem. We have to check that before running any tourney.
I have to think about 2 things :
1) You (the MM) who have few time or other obligations
2] Players who has went through many games to see you in finale so we need a minimum of game.
I will set finale to fit with everybody's needs. I promess.
But as the mapmaker is the key of the tourney, we will match with him. If MM has only few time available I will send map for the finale one after another.
I think it's a better idea to see the MM
only during the finale (if MM doesn't care about the medal of course).
But if many MM want to be in the first round, I could change my mind.
Re: I had a dream.... about beta
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:18 pm
by Night Strike
There are other options available to include the mapmakers in the tournament, I was just specifically addressing the situation as originally presented.
I can't move the thread back without you getting a Cartographer to say it's fine (and to tell me which forum to put it in).