Conquer Club

Army Tells Chaplains to Use Christianity as Suicide Prevention Tool
http://www.pubrecord.org/religion/597-a ... cides.html

The U.S. Army’s suicide prevention manual advises military chaplains to promote “religiosity,” specifically Christianity, as a way to deter distraught soldiers from taking their own lives, according to an amended federal lawsuit filed last week against Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and the Department of Defense.

The 2008 Army Suicide Prevention Manual says “Chaplains... need to openly advocate behavioral health as a resource” to treat suicidal soldiers and instructs behavioral health providers “to openly advocate spirituality and religiosity as resiliency factors."

"Spirituality looks outside of oneself for meaning and provides resiliency for failures in life experiences. Religiosity adds the dimension of a supportive community to help one deal with crises. Both embed themselves in a relationship with God, or a higher power, that provides an everlasting relationship. Bottom line, Soldiers should not base their reason for living in another human being!” says a slide included in the Army's "Suicide Awareness for Soldiers 2008" PowerPoint presentation.

Dun Dun Dun...

This doesn't seem too irrational to me.

Well, it is the government.... so it's kinda not Constitional...

The lawsuit, presumably filled with good intentions from people who wish to see the seperation between church and state maintained, is a rather irrelevant one. Yes at the heart there is an issue with the idea of promoting religiousity in any particular form, but the Establishment Clause really seems to refer primarily to Congress, which if i am not mistaken (even in your eyes) is not actually the Army. While they will certainly try to draw things out of it and push to other precedents (which in my relatively limited knowledge there are few) I imagine they will not find much.

We are talking presumably about one tactic of many different tactics in order to keep people who may be in moments of weak mental health capable of continuing their duty. While id be a little leery if this was the only tactic someone used or if they were trying to force Christianity on people who werent Christians, i see very little harm in someone throwing out the bit of advice that if your individual is in weak mental health, to appeal to their spirtual side should they have one.

Your taking a little too much out of the situation here. This is not nearly the gross abuse that you are trying to put it out as, and I am just as much an Athiest as you are.

If you're in favor of our troops going to war without spiritual support (whether or not you believe in God), you are in favor of virtually castrating our infantry.

OMG!
How dare they promote Christianity!

I mean, who cares if it actually prevents people from committing suicide? RELIGION IS OBVIOUSLY EVIL!

Stupid fucking people. All they see is "Christianity", and their narrow views shout "evil religion!" They don't care about that whole "saving lives" thing.

got tonkaed wrote:The lawsuit, presumably filled with good intentions from people who wish to see the seperation between church and state maintained, is a rather irrelevant one. Yes at the heart there is an issue with the idea of promoting religiousity in any particular form, but the Establishment Clause really seems to refer primarily to Congress, which if i am not mistaken (even in your eyes) is not actually the Army. While they will certainly try to draw things out of it and push to other precedents (which in my relatively limited knowledge there are few) I imagine they will not find much.

We are talking presumably about one tactic of many different tactics in order to keep people who may be in moments of weak mental health capable of continuing their duty. While id be a little leery if this was the only tactic someone used or if they were trying to force Christianity on people who werent Christians, i see very little harm in someone throwing out the bit of advice that if your individual is in weak mental health, to appeal to their spirtual side should they have one.

Your taking a little too much out of the situation here. This is not nearly the gross abuse that you are trying to put it out as, and I am just as much an Athiest as you are.

http://www.pubrecord.org/ wrote:The U.S. Military is barred from enacting or supporting policies that advance, promote or endorse religion.

Read the article, guys, then discuss it. There's a wee bit more to it than just the three paragraphs Juan posted.

Are there any Buddhist soldiers?

DaGip wrote:Are there any Buddhist soldiers?

There are a fair number of Buddhist chaplains and about 2500 Buddhists in the US armed forces.

The problem is not that the Chaplins are trying to use religion to deal with suicide. The problem is that the VA is not properly evaluating war related injuries such as head trauma and PTSD, and is not providing the MEDICAL support that could help these military people and their families.

They got "forget" pills for PTSD now...http://current.com/items/89166717/new_d ... mories.htm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Army Tells Chaplains to Use Christianity as Suicide Prevention Tool

Only because it's a little too soon to tell them to use islam.

HapSmo19 wrote:Only because it's a little too soon to tell them to use islam.

mpjh wrote:The problem is not that the Chaplins are trying to use religion to deal with suicide. The problem is that the VA is not properly evaluating war related injuries such as head trauma and PTSD, and is not providing the MEDICAL support that could help these military people and their families.

It's true, ignore their actual health concerns and send them to Jesus.

MeDeFe wrote:Read the article, guys, then discuss it. There's a wee bit more to it than just the three paragraphs Juan posted.

Thank-you sir.

If the chaplains were being at all honest with themselves or the soldiers they work for then they wouldn't be in the army.

I might be an atheist now but I went to enough Sunday school mornings to know that Jesus frowned on violence and that the ten commandments state "Thou shalt no kill".

Goes to show that christians are just as confused as I always suspected.

walnutwatson wrote:the ten commandments state "Thou shalt no kill".

Wrong, sir!

Exodus 20:13- "You shall not murder" ESV
There's a difference.

Only in civil or criminal law.

Despite the pedantry the point still holds - its un-christian to kill people, surely. So how can chaplains justify their position?

Caleb the Cruel wrote:

walnutwatson wrote:the ten commandments state "Thou shalt no kill".

Wrong, sir!

Exodus 20:13- "You shall not murder" ESV
There's a difference.

Yeah, this is pretty much the dumbest cop-out that I've ever heard. Ever.
Let's invade another country for profit. Then put our soldiers in a position where they have to kill to survive. That way it can't be called murder.
Or, how about we all pay our taxes. That money is sent to foreign countries like Israel who use it to buy weapons... which they use for genocide. And we are not involved in murder whatsoever?

Is it not murder when someone else does it in your name? Yup.
Is it not murder if you support it? Of course it is.
Or if you put someone in that position? Iraq didn't attack us. We attacked them. That's murder.

Actually the difference between murder and other lethal actions is a legal distinction that does not rely on the ten commandments for differentiation.

If you use murder to mean the intentional taking of the life of a human being, then from an ethical or even moral stance, killing of innocent civilians is murder, whether collateral or not.

I would recommend a classic track from the 60's at this point - Sky Pilot by The Animals, from the Twain Shall Meet album.
The album also contains one of the cleverest musical sequences ever, where bagpipes segue into a sitar (both being instruments with a drone and a relatively small number of notes).

Incidentally, the most commonly-used bible amongst English-speakers noted the commandment as "Thou Shalt Not Kill" from the early 17th century. Could it be that all Christians were in error that whole time? What else were they doing wrong, apart from refraining from killing that wasn't murder?

walnutwatson wrote:Despite the pedantry the point still holds - its un-christian to kill people, surely. So how can chaplains justify their position?

Uh, Luke 3:14 suggests Jesus was ok with a person being a soldier. Wouldn't he tell them to stop if he thought they should?

Caleb the Cruel wrote:

walnutwatson wrote:the ten commandments state "Thou shalt no kill".

Wrong, sir!

Exodus 20:13- "You shall not murder" ESV
There's a difference.

I agree, but this is partly a Jewish/Christian differance. Most Jews translate it as "murder", but Christians tend to say "kill".

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Caleb the Cruel wrote:

walnutwatson wrote:the ten commandments state "Thou shalt no kill".

Wrong, sir!

Exodus 20:13- "You shall not murder" ESV
There's a difference.

I agree, but this is partly a Jewish/Christian differance. Most Jews translate it as "murder", but Christians tend to say "kill".

It's thier rule and language.

walnutwatson wrote:Despite the pedantry the point still holds - its un-christian to kill people, surely. So how can chaplains justify their position?

St Augustine's "just war" concept ... among other issues.

(one is that chaplains are not there to kill, but to comfort) .. and I am just answering the question, not arguing the points.

I believe every religion has a version of "don't kill". Unless of course you are killing those heathens on the "other team", in which case you can kill all you want in the name of your god and be a hero.