Conquer Club

What is your opinion of it? Should it be rephrased? Should time be taken away at schools every day for it?

I personally find it insulting that they insist on saying it every day. Are my oaths so unreliable that I have to reaffirm them every day? And I'm not crazy about the "under God" part of it, either. Between those two things, I never say it.

Thankfully in Australia it isn't really a done thing, not in schools anyway. When it is done, it's nowhere near done with the fanfare and spectacle that the US seems to embrace.

I guess the fact that one of my tattoos says 'Pledge allegiance to no flag' would let you know what i think of the practice!

It's a relic of the Cold War. Hell, it's a relic of the Red Scare. To be honest I don't really buy into the "we're the best" mentality, and feel that "we're all right, but lacking in many ways" would be more accurate. In summary, nationalism makes me sad.

Well, allow me to first say that it barely takes time away from school. But I think we shouldn't have to say it/listen to it being said. On average about 3 people, including the teacher, in my classes say it every day. It's not like it changes our patriotism to the country in any way whatsoever...

So everyone knows what we're are talking about;

The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the republic
for which it stands
one nation under GOD
indivisable
with liberty and justice for all.

...with liberty and justice for all.

How ironic

In my school it was not required for you to stand up for the pledge of allegiance and most didn't. I do feel that the "under god" part is a blatant hypocracy to what is written in our constitution and the 1st amendment.

If you remember, it is now law that public schools recite the pledge everyday. The law came from that Athiest in California starting a war by sueing to keep his children from having to say the pledge with it's "under GOD." They say that because it doesn't say which GOD that that makes it ok.
Though you are not required by law to say it.

I was in high school when it happened.
I was one of two kids who refuesed to say the pledge. The second day that I refused our high school's dean just happened to walk into the room as the class was saying the pledge. I was seated.
My teacher calls on me, and asks why I didn't say the pledge.
Mind you this is clearly a set-up! So I didn't say anything and instead, I stood up as the class sat down. So now I'm the focus of the class.
My teacher says "if you won't say the pledge I'll need a report on why you refuse to say it." I looked at my dean and he's looking right at me, not saying a word. Looking at him and not the teacher I ask, "then why don't you get a report from everyone else on why they say the pledge?"
Then I picked out someone from my class and asked "what is the pledge about? What does it mean to you when you say it?" He looked shocked and didn't say anything. I turned again to my dean and said "well I don't know about you but I feel that we're all pledging our loyalty to a government that doesn't care about it's own constitution." Then something along the lines of "I am an Athiest, and you would ask me to say that I live under a god? Do I ask you to recite over and over that there is no GOD? Doesn't our Constitution say freedom to worship or not to worship?"
I don't remember enough of what I said, I was pretty pissed that they had set me up twice. First by passing the law and then by waiting for me to not say it. I did say something about it being Socialistic too. They never did get me or anyone else to write a report. Can't say for certian that I still feel exactly like that, but the pledge still pisses me off.


I think it's especially obvious that we are talking about the Christian GOD here too. Strike Wolf is very right.


Here is the history of the pledge, for those of you curios about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian Socialist, and the cousin of Socialist Utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Bellamy's original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America, conceived by James B. Upham.

Bellamy's original Pledge read, "I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people opposed equal rights for women and blacks.

In 1923 the National Flag Conference called for the words my Flag to be changed to the Flag of the United States. The reason given was to ensure that immigrants knew to which flag reference was being made. The words "of America" were added a year later. The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Pledge as the official national pledge on June 22, 1942.

In 1940 the Supreme Court, in deciding the case of Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools could be compelled to recite the Pledge, even Jehovah's Witnesses like the Gobitases, who considered the flag salute to be idolatry. In the wake of this ruling, there was a rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1943 the Supreme Court reversed its decision, ruling in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that "compulsory unification of opinion" violated the First Amendment.[2]

Reciting of the pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It ended with the arm outstretched and the palm upwards. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, President Franklin D. Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute. This was done when Congress officially adopted the Flag Code on 22 June 1942. [3]

And there is to much to copy/paste about the addition of the phrase "under GOD." I'll break it down. The Knights of Columbus trolled the government so much that they just gave in and added it.

Official versions
1892
“I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.”
1892 to 1923
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
1923 to 1924
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
1924 to 1954
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
1954 to Present
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

There you have it. The pledge is the invention of a socialist, and has a history of Racism, Sexism, and religious intolerance. But that is also true of our nation, save the socialist part.

I think that it's very important to say the pledge in school each day. I know that I personally have always hated the US, and I was planning on overthrowing the government and brutally murdering all its citizens, but then I said the pledge in class and after that I just couldn't bring myself to destroy America.

When I was in school, I rattled it off without really thinking about it. I was usually thinking about the girl sitting next to me, or how the hell I was going to write that essay in two hours. That's probably how I would have used a moment of silence as well. People did it, so I did, and didn't really give much thought to it. Nowadays I'd probably just roll my eyes and try to make funny noises during the "under god" part.

Blinkadyblink wrote:I think that it's very important to say the pledge in school each day. I know that I personally have always hated the US, and I was planning on overthrowing the government and brutally murdering all its citizens, but then I said the pledge in class and after that I just couldn't bring myself to destroy America.

Meh, if I were practically forced to say it every day I wouldn't give a shit about the contents of it, or even turn hostile out of spite, as Inklosed already pointed out: "are our oaths so unreliable?". Try my point of view and you might revive your dreams of old.

Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

i think the oath should be taught to all American youth, and they should have to repeat it until they have it memorized. as far as requiring older kids to say it... well, i don't think it should be required but i don't have much of a problem with providing a moment or two every day for those who choose to say it daily are encouraged to do so. i also think "under God" should be optional; for some people this is a very important part of the pledge and adds real significance to it, but for those whole deny the existence of God or don't believe he happens to reside over my country it seems kind of detrimental to say it don't you think?






author's note: upon review of this post, i realized it sounds like it was written by a retarded 8 year old. sorry about that folks

I can't really say that anyone is forced to say it in our school. Yes, we stand for it (those with some moral objection do not have to). The pledge is said & I could care less whether the whole class (usually the case) says it, or if I'm the only one (never happens). The moment of silence is exactly that. We sit quietly for the only minute all day that the school is quiet.

CrazyAnglican wrote:I can't really say that anyone is forced to say it in our school. Yes, we stand for it (those with some moral objection do not have to). The pledge is said & I could care less whether the whole class (usually the case) says it, or if I'm the only one (never happens). The moment of silence is exactly that. We sit quietly for the only minute all dat that the school is quiet.

With little or no significance at all because it's being done all the time. It's quite a pity, why can't you save it for when it really counts?

Yeah like when those pesky Jehovah's Witnesses or Athiests enter the classroom?

Have it at major sporting events and possibly religious ceremonies for the "under god" bit only, maybe?

Saying or doing something when you don't think about it or don't believe it only cheapens the act for all involved, I think.

Or maybe we could tell the KoC to bugger off and then do the intelligent and honest thing by doing away with the "under God" bit?

Juan_Bottom wrote:Or maybe we could tell the KoC to bugger off and then do the intelligent and honest thing by doing away with the "under God" bit?

KoC?

Knights of Columbus; According to Wiki, they trolled the government so much that Congress added "under God" to shut them up.

Check out my 2nd post.

Juan_Bottom wrote:Knights of Columbus; According to Wiki, they trolled the government so much that Congress added "under God" to shut them up.

Check out my 2nd post.

ah, them, now I remember, I just failed to make the connection.

The Neon Peon wrote:Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

Not only citizens - my kids have to say it, if they want schooling. I don't even get to vote.

jonesthecurl wrote:

The Neon Peon wrote:Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

Not only citizens - my kids have to say it, if they want schooling. I don't even get to vote.

Odd. The only time I can ever recall doing it, was in grade school. And that was a private Catholic elementary school too. We took moments of silence in junior high and high school, but never said the Pledge of Allegiance.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:

The Neon Peon wrote:Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

Not only citizens - my kids have to say it, if they want schooling. I don't even get to vote.

Odd. The only time I can ever recall doing it, was in grade school. And that was a private Catholic elementary school too. We took moments of silence in junior high and high school, but never said the Pledge of Allegiance.

It's a public school thing.

Juan_Bottom wrote:Knights of Columbus; According to Wiki, they trolled the government so much that Congress added "under God" to shut them up.

Check out my 2nd post.

So we can blame Tzor for that?