Conquer Club

I'm curious what everybody wants their government to do. I feel we are moving into a period where people believe the government should do more and more to "help" and "Protect" people. I believe this is wrong. I believe government should do no more than is necessary to prevent people from forcing other people to do things. While trying to compile the list of items necessary for this poll, I found a very interesting article.

http://chandachisala.com/2009/01/24/und ... socialist/

government is an institution that has no resources of its own, therefore it shoulde provide nothing for its people, other than protection from tyranny. It has, however, and as expected, grown in a cancerous way, such that it is out of control. it needs to be cut to a miniscult fraction of what it currently is, so that we are free to provide for ourselves.

Two things:

(1) The people through the government provide things. In other words, the government would not be able to provide education if not for people paying taxes, etc. So, as captain put it, the government provides nothing on its own.

(2) Education should be provided for free* by the government. Other than that and protecting our rights, the government should do nothing else (in the main).

*Free in this context means "paid for by the taxpayers."

I defined Transportation as road construction, improvements, etc., so I voted for it. Also voted for education and freedom.

the more the goverment helps us the more they screw us in the ass,:lol:

thegreekdog wrote:Two things:
(1) The people through the government provide things. In other words, the government would not be able to provide education if not for people paying taxes, etc. So, as captain put it, the government provides nothing on its own.
(2) Education should be provided for free* by the government. Other than that and protecting our rights, the government should do nothing else (in the main).
*Free in this context means "paid for by the taxpayers."

No national defense? (Which also isn't in the poll...)

I think a suitable breeding partner should be provided through government.

I voted for everything, including everything.

bedub1 wrote:I'm curious what everybody wants their government to do. I feel we are moving into a period where people believe the government should do more and more to "help" and "Protect" people. I believe this is wrong. I believe government should do no more than is necessary to prevent people from forcing other people to do things. While trying to compile the list of items necessary for this poll, I found a very interesting article.

http://chandachisala.com/2009/01/24/und ... socialist/

That article fails to explain why the government should bother protecting your rights.

I could easily vote for every single option here, just as well as voting for none of them. It's all dependant on the 'how, when, where and why', which this poll doesn't specify at all. It's more complex then a clickety-click-in-a-box.

You left out international treaties, defense.

Also, "keeping other people from telling me what to do" can mean anything from me telling my son not to run otu in the road, telling you you cannot kill me to the Orwellian "Big Brother" dictating everything you do.

The government provides the "fences" that allow us to live together without killing each other.

Snorri1234 wrote:

bedub1 wrote:I'm curious what everybody wants their government to do. I feel we are moving into a period where people believe the government should do more and more to "help" and "Protect" people. I believe this is wrong. I believe government should do no more than is necessary to prevent people from forcing other people to do things. While trying to compile the list of items necessary for this poll, I found a very interesting article.

http://chandachisala.com/2009/01/24/und ... socialist/

That article fails to explain why the government should bother protecting your rights.

Did you read it? I figured it was too long for most people to read.... It doesn't explain why the government should protect our rights, just states that that is the governments job.

PLAYER57832 wrote:You left out international treaties, defense.

Also, "keeping other people from telling me what to do" can mean anything from me telling my son not to run otu in the road, telling you you cannot kill me to the Orwellian "Big Brother" dictating everything you do.

The government provides the "fences" that allow us to live together without killing each other.

Yet could also provide (as it has done in the past) the "gates" for slaughtering each other. Be it during war, or during "peacetime," it has happened numerous times. The role of the large government is a double edged sword. When you give it enough power to take care of all the little things, as well as the big things, you are also giving it the power to direct you to a certain path that they say is good for you, whether or not it is.

thegreekdog wrote:Two things:

(1) The people through the government provide things. In other words, the government would not be able to provide education if not for people paying taxes, etc. So, as captain put it, the government provides nothing on its own.

(2) Education should be provided for free* by the government. Other than that and protecting our rights, the government should do nothing else (in the main).

*Free in this context means "paid for by the taxpayers."

To say the government has no resources of it's own is strange. A business is the sum of it's people and the value they bring. Similarly a government is the sum of the people it governs and the value they bring. Government is the social extension of the community of people it governs, and thus it reflects the values and wants of it's people. This is why we pay taxes, and should.

A purely market system leads to greed and inequality, by definition. Fostering and celebrating greed leads to the sorts of problems we have now - fat cat bankers and baconnaise - clearly a failed system, whilst a recent study has shown that higher inequality leads to a less "healthy" society (listen to this podcast for a discussion of this study, and references http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... 5_07_2009/ ).

Simply, if the government is an extension of the people, we must ask oursleves - what should we provide to people in our care?

muy_thaiguy wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:You left out international treaties, defense.

Also, "keeping other people from telling me what to do" can mean anything from me telling my son not to run otu in the road, telling you you cannot kill me to the Orwellian "Big Brother" dictating everything you do.

The government provides the "fences" that allow us to live together without killing each other.

Yet could also provide (as it has done in the past) the "gates" for slaughtering each other. Be it during war, or during "peacetime," it has happened numerous times. The role of the large government is a double edged sword. When you give it enough power to take care of all the little things, as well as the big things, you are also giving it the power to direct you to a certain path that they say is good for you, whether or not it is.

Of course. Thankfully that is why we have government by the people.

However, people making the government work requires people having knowledge. The US media has become quite adept at non-information. Libraries are home to all the latest best sellers, a few of the true classics, and have little room for anything else. No internet search engine uses credibility or truth as a measure, so while its pretty easy to find the latest poppycock theory, finding real verified information is more and more difficult.

We don't have censorship, but we do have such an overload of garbage that truth simply gets lost or erased.

bedub1 wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

bedub1 wrote:I'm curious what everybody wants their government to do. I feel we are moving into a period where people believe the government should do more and more to "help" and "Protect" people. I believe this is wrong. I believe government should do no more than is necessary to prevent people from forcing other people to do things. While trying to compile the list of items necessary for this poll, I found a very interesting article.

http://chandachisala.com/2009/01/24/und ... socialist/

That article fails to explain why the government should bother protecting your rights.

Did you read it? I figured it was too long for most people to read.... It doesn't explain why the government should protect our rights, just states that that is the governments job.

That's not the point I was aiming at. The article is about how the only role of the government should be protecting rights and nothing else but it conveniently skips the question why on earth is should or should not.

I mean, it's not like keeping the government out of everything will make a fair, just or even working society.

Snorri1234 wrote:

bedub1 wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

bedub1 wrote:I'm curious what everybody wants their government to do. I feel we are moving into a period where people believe the government should do more and more to "help" and "Protect" people. I believe this is wrong. I believe government should do no more than is necessary to prevent people from forcing other people to do things. While trying to compile the list of items necessary for this poll, I found a very interesting article.

http://chandachisala.com/2009/01/24/und ... socialist/

That article fails to explain why the government should bother protecting your rights.

Did you read it? I figured it was too long for most people to read.... It doesn't explain why the government should protect our rights, just states that that is the governments job.

That's not the point I was aiming at. The article is about how the only role of the government should be protecting rights and nothing else but it conveniently skips the question why on earth is should or should not.

I mean, it's not like keeping the government out of everything will make a fair, just or even working society.

Life isn't fair, get over it. It's not the governments job to make life fair. Life isn't just. It's not the governments job to make life just. Life sucks, get over it. If you want more money, go work harder. The idea the government will help you out if you are lazy is bullshit. I call "socialists" people that want to take hard working peoples money and give it to lazy people. Some people are just smarter than others, some people just work harder than others. Some people decide they want to go to college and get an education, some people decide they want to drop out of highschool. Those 2 people AREN'T equal, and never should be. The governments role isn't to step in and tax the f*ck out of the one who went to college and give all that money to the highschool dropout. I'm sick and fucking tired of people who want something for nothing. They want their cake and to eat it to. They do what they WANT instead of what they NEED to do. There is a consequence for every action.

bedub1 wrote: Life isn't fair, get over it. It's not the governments job to make life fair. Life isn't just. It's not the governments job to make life just. Life sucks, get over it.

Exactly my point. If this is something you actually believe then it's ridiculous to have a government at all to protect your rights. You keep what you kill, you defend what is yours and if you can't then you're shit out of luck. Why would the government stop someone from killing you and robbing your house? They aren't there to make things fair or just.

If you want more money, go work harder. The idea the government will help you out if you are lazy is bullshit. I call "socialists" people that want to take hard working peoples money and give it to lazy people.

No, you call "socialists" people who want to help out others by getting some money from people who can take it and helping those less fortunate. Who are nearly always less fortunate because of circumstances beyond their control, not just being lazy bums.

Some people are just smarter than others, some people just work harder than others. Some people decide they want to go to college and get an education, some people decide they want to drop out of highschool. Those 2 people AREN'T equal, and never should be.

Yes, while the first can be the son of a rich couple who can easily afford the big college bill and the latter can be a kid who has grown up in a bad family and now drops out to work and pay the bills.

Ofcourse they aren't equal. The rich son is a hardworking honest American and the latter is just a lazy bum who doesn't even deserve health care.

bedub1 wrote: Life isn't fair, get over it. It's not the governments job to make life fair. Life isn't just. It's not the governments job to make life just. Life sucks, get over it. If you want more money, go work harder. The idea the government will help you out if you are lazy is bullshit. I call "socialists" people that want to take hard working peoples money and give it to lazy people. Some people are just smarter than others, some people just work harder than others. Some people decide they want to go to college and get an education, some people decide they want to drop out of highschool. Those 2 people AREN'T equal, and never should be. The governments role isn't to step in and tax the f*ck out of the one who went to college and give all that money to the highschool dropout. I'm sick and fucking tired of people who want something for nothing. They want their cake and to eat it to. They do what they WANT instead of what they NEED to do. There is a consequence for every action.

What a load of crap. You just managed to write down the exact reason people hate capitalists; a complete lack of empathy and altruism, and a line of thought that doesn't comply with logic in any way. I wish english was my first language, so that i would be able to debate this to the best of my ability. It isn't, so i'll just say this:
Do you really believe that a child born in a ghetto in the Phillipines have the same chance at becoming a rich and successful adult as the child of a multimillionare in europe? If you do, you're stupid.
There are other forces at play besides 'will' and 'intelligence'. Unjust forces that it is every empathic humans obligation and god damn duty to try to counter.

It is the governments role to try to make life a bit more fair. That's the one and only reason a government exists. Everything a government does (or at least; should be doing) can be deduced to that.

That said; A government doesn't have any value by itself. It is what we make it. It should not be viewed as a separate entity, it is merely an extension of us, the people, and our will. When we loose that connection, that's when it get's dangerous.

grandin wrote:

bedub1 wrote: Life isn't fair, get over it. It's not the governments job to make life fair. Life isn't just. It's not the governments job to make life just. Life sucks, get over it. If you want more money, go work harder. The idea the government will help you out if you are lazy is bullshit. I call "socialists" people that want to take hard working peoples money and give it to lazy people. Some people are just smarter than others, some people just work harder than others. Some people decide they want to go to college and get an education, some people decide they want to drop out of highschool. Those 2 people AREN'T equal, and never should be. The governments role isn't to step in and tax the f*ck out of the one who went to college and give all that money to the highschool dropout. I'm sick and fucking tired of people who want something for nothing. They want their cake and to eat it to. They do what they WANT instead of what they NEED to do. There is a consequence for every action.

What a load of crap. You just managed to write down the exact reason people hate capitalists; a complete lack of empathy and altruism, and a line of thought that doesn't comply with logic in any way. I wish english was my first language, so that i would be able to debate this to the best of my ability. It isn't, so i'll just say this:
Do you really believe that a child born in a ghetto in the Phillipines have the same chance at becoming a rich and successful adult as the child of a multimillionare in europe? If you do, you're stupid.
There are other forces at play besides 'will' and 'intelligence'. Unjust forces that it is every empathic humans obligation and god damn duty to try to counter.

It is the governments role to try to make life a bit more fair. That's the one and only reason a government exists. Everything a government does (or at least; should be doing) can be deduced to that.

That said; A government doesn't have any value by itself. It is what we make it. It should not be viewed as a separate entity, it is merely an extension of us, the people, and our will. When we loose that connection, that's when it get's dangerous.

I do not believe a child born in the ghetto and a child born of a multimillionaire have the same chances of being successful. I think the child born in the ghetto has a better chance. If life is easy, and everything is handed to you, you will become a worthless pile of crap. Look at any of the children of wealthy parents. I've met many of them. Paris Hilton would be a perfect example. An easy life leads you to not know anything, not be wiling to work for anything. A child born in the ghetto has a "harder" life, has to do things on their own, and make something of themselves.

Like I said, life isn't fair, quit your bitching, and do something about your life if you want it to be better.

Simple answer, the government should do what it needs to.

Don't be so naive to think that you know everything that goes on in the world. You may have an idea of what government should need to do, as do I. But if you put 10 people in a room and ask them what government should do, you will get ten different answers. Some will probably be similar to other, but they will all be different.

Suffice it to say that I'm am satisfied enough with this government to be willing to risk my life in its defense.

bedub1 wrote:I do not believe a child born in the ghetto and a child born of a multimillionaire have the same chances of being successful. I think the child born in the ghetto has a better chance.

No they don't They have a better chance of improving themselves, having a better life than the one they were born into, but they also have a far far lower chance of:

-Going to college
-Earning any arbitrarily high amount p.a.
-Just plain surviving

bedub1 wrote:If life is easy, and everything is handed to you, you will become a worthless pile of crap. Look at any of the children of wealthy parents. I've met many of them. Paris Hilton would be a perfect example. An easy life leads you to not know anything, not be wiling to work for anything. A child born in the ghetto has a "harder" life, has to do things on their own, and make something of themselves.

Same as above.

bedub1 wrote:Like I said, life isn't fair, quit your bitching, and do something about your life if you want it to be better.

Do you really think the guy working 60 hours a week on nightshifts down your local wal-mart to feed his family really isn't "trying" as much as the guy who was born to a steel magnate and got a cushy job working for his dad's company polishing a chair with his backside and playing a non-hasbro affiliated version of a popular strategy board games? Do you think they have the same standard of living, the same opportunities in life? If they get knocked down by a car, who gets the health insrance covering them, who loses their job? Sure, life's not fair, but people die because ignorant and selfish people like yourself have, as grandin rightly says, no empathy for people so far below you and instead go "life sucks (but it doesn't for me), get over it".

Answer Snorri's post rather than picking on the guy who freely admits he can't debate in what isn't his first language.

bedub1 wrote:

grandin wrote:

bedub1 wrote: Life isn't fair, get over it. It's not the governments job to make life fair. Life isn't just. It's not the governments job to make life just. Life sucks, get over it. If you want more money, go work harder. The idea the government will help you out if you are lazy is bullshit. I call "socialists" people that want to take hard working peoples money and give it to lazy people. Some people are just smarter than others, some people just work harder than others. Some people decide they want to go to college and get an education, some people decide they want to drop out of highschool. Those 2 people AREN'T equal, and never should be. The governments role isn't to step in and tax the f*ck out of the one who went to college and give all that money to the highschool dropout. I'm sick and fucking tired of people who want something for nothing. They want their cake and to eat it to. They do what they WANT instead of what they NEED to do. There is a consequence for every action.

What a load of crap. You just managed to write down the exact reason people hate capitalists; a complete lack of empathy and altruism, and a line of thought that doesn't comply with logic in any way. I wish english was my first language, so that i would be able to debate this to the best of my ability. It isn't, so i'll just say this:
Do you really believe that a child born in a ghetto in the Phillipines have the same chance at becoming a rich and successful adult as the child of a multimillionare in europe? If you do, you're stupid.
There are other forces at play besides 'will' and 'intelligence'. Unjust forces that it is every empathic humans obligation and god damn duty to try to counter.

It is the governments role to try to make life a bit more fair. That's the one and only reason a government exists. Everything a government does (or at least; should be doing) can be deduced to that.

That said; A government doesn't have any value by itself. It is what we make it. It should not be viewed as a separate entity, it is merely an extension of us, the people, and our will. When we loose that connection, that's when it get's dangerous.

I do not believe a child born in the ghetto and a child born of a multimillionaire have the same chances of being successful. I think the child born in the ghetto has a better chance. If life is easy, and everything is handed to you, you will become a worthless pile of crap. Look at any of the children of wealthy parents. I've met many of them. Paris Hilton would be a perfect example. An easy life leads you to not know anything, not be wiling to work for anything. A child born in the ghetto has a "harder" life, has to do things on their own, and make something of themselves.

Only someone who has never experienced such a life would say such a thing. The odds of a millionaire child's success are better than the odds of a ghetto child even surviving.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:You left out international treaties, defense.

Also, "keeping other people from telling me what to do" can mean anything from me telling my son not to run otu in the road, telling you you cannot kill me to the Orwellian "Big Brother" dictating everything you do.

The government provides the "fences" that allow us to live together without killing each other.

Yet could also provide (as it has done in the past) the "gates" for slaughtering each other. Be it during war, or during "peacetime," it has happened numerous times. The role of the large government is a double edged sword. When you give it enough power to take care of all the little things, as well as the big things, you are also giving it the power to direct you to a certain path that they say is good for you, whether or not it is.

Of course. Thankfully that is why we have government by the people.

In theory, yes. In history, perhaps. In recent years, no.
Reason? How many people (average everyday citizens like you and me) wanted the government to dump money down the banks and businesses, and how many wanted the money (actually, their own tax money that they had put into it, and then some that magically came from no where) to come back to them so that they could live a little longer on what they earned, spend some of that money at stores, get things moving, and it works it's way on up and the economy recovers in good time? Me thinks the latter, as there was quite a bit of support for it. Up until Obama took office anyway, then the support for it magically shrunk, even though he has implemented basically the same policies in those regards.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:You left out international treaties, defense.

Also, "keeping other people from telling me what to do" can mean anything from me telling my son not to run otu in the road, telling you you cannot kill me to the Orwellian "Big Brother" dictating everything you do.

The government provides the "fences" that allow us to live together without killing each other.

Yet could also provide (as it has done in the past) the "gates" for slaughtering each other. Be it during war, or during "peacetime," it has happened numerous times. The role of the large government is a double edged sword. When you give it enough power to take care of all the little things, as well as the big things, you are also giving it the power to direct you to a certain path that they say is good for you, whether or not it is.

Of course. Thankfully that is why we have government by the people.

In theory, yes. In history, perhaps. In recent years, no.
Reason? How many people (average everyday citizens like you and me) wanted the government to dump money down the banks and businesses, and how many wanted the money (actually, their own tax money that they had put into it, and then some that magically came from no where) to come back to them so that they could live a little longer on what they earned, spend some of that money at stores, get things moving, and it works it's way on up and the economy recovers in good time? Me thinks the latter, as there was quite a bit of support for it. Up until Obama took office anyway, then the support for it magically shrunk, even though he has implemented basically the same policies in those regards.

The government's role is not to do what people want, it's to do what's needed. The sum is greater than the parts, and your tax money is much more useful in a big pot than in your pocket - for the country.