EW's Semi-Open Matrix Madness

[DirtyDishSoap]

I see that we're not even a full page in and already Vot is overreacting to a joke vote and people are already talking about the way the game is constructed. I'll admit that I'm not really 100% sure I've figured out how this set up works yet, myself.

Vote King because I don't believe in a feudal overlord.

I, for one, am a welcoming boot licker.

Vote Strike for his attempts of overthrowing the monarch.

[Kingm]

I see that we're not even a full page in and already Vot is overreacting to a joke vote and people are already talking about the way the game is constructed. I'll admit that I'm not really 100% sure I've figured out how this set up works yet, myself.

Vote King because I don't believe in a feudal overlord.

I, for one, am a welcoming boot licker.

Vote Strike for his attempts of overthrowing the monarch.

I like this, all hail the King, lets lynch the usurper Vote Strike

[Votanic]

@Vot I will also not randomly decide to end the game, players will have time (couple of days minimum) to change their vote.

Okay, good to know, especially since 'sudden 'nightfall' has frequently occurred in other games.

[Loose Canon]

Extreme - what kind of message would a role blocked townie get back?

[Loose Canon]

I have a theory on how to maximise the power of town.

There are 7 possible town roles

Town Tracker +1
Town Motion +2
Town Inventor +3
Town Joat +4
Towbn Even Night +5
Town Odd night +6
Town roleblocker +7

And we have sign up order;
1. Strike
2 Devante
3 PMC
4 Vot
5 Swang
6 LC
7 DDS
8 King
9 Kong
10 Pix
11 Max
12 Rag
13 Charle
14 Fusi
15 Traf

So what if the Town Tracker added 1 to his sign up Number Town motion add2 to his sign up number etc.. Town roleb +7 to determine who to use abilities on N1.
And maybe Town Tracker -1 N2 , Town motion -2 N2 Town Invent -3 N2 etc
Then extending this into N3 maybe Town Tracker +6, Town Motion +7 Town Invent +8

What I think this would do is as the Town Power Roles are eliminated from D2 onwards, at least if they had followed this pattern we would know who they had used their ability on N1, and for a town power eliminated D3 onwards we would know who they had used their ability on N1 and N2.

Wouldn't this leverage more power/information from Town Power roles once they are eliminated?

[kongming3]

I'll wait to comment on the viability of the above, but I do appreciate trying to eke out the advantages possible given very limited game-related information gathering this game as town. Feels like our main advantage is simply raw numbers and an ample supply of brave townsfolk willing to sacrifice themselves for the hope of a brighter tomorrow once the red scourge is purged. With that in mind, it seems reasonable to be liberal with the lynches this game so we don't end up down five townsfolk with minimal new information to go on and still no lynches attempted.

[Votanic]

I have a theory on how to maximise the power of town.

There are 7 possible town roles

Town Tracker +1
Town Motion +2
Town Inventor +3
Town Joat +4
Towbn Even Night +5
Town Odd night +6
Town roleblocker +7

And we have sign up order;
1. Strike
2 Devante
3 PMC
4 Vot
5 Swang
6 LC
7 DDS
8 King
9 Kong
10 Pix
11 Max
12 Rag
13 Charle
14 Fusi
15 Traf

So what if the Town Tracker added 1 to his sign up Number Town motion add2 to his sign up number etc.. Town roleb +7 to determine who to use abilities on N1.
And maybe Town Tracker -1 N2 , Town motion -2 N2 Town Invent -3 N2 etc
Then extending this into N3 maybe Town Tracker +6, Town Motion +7 Town Invent +8

What I think this would do is as the Town Power Roles are eliminated from D2 onwards, at least if they had followed this pattern we would know who they had used their ability on N1, and for a town power eliminated D3 onwards we would know who they had used their ability on N1 and N2.

Wouldn't this leverage more power/information from Town Power roles once they are eliminated?

???
So... is this your new 'finger math' version of a Day 1 mass claim, LC?

I mean , come on, you scumsters can chitter-chat all day now... and this is the best you came up with?

[kongming3]

It does feel like game theory can be of some use here even if the above has issues - another option of course would be to have a lynching candidate in mind as part of a group of three. Then, all we would need is for the mafia to kindly reveal one other person in that group of three as not mafia (through giving them an early retirement), and the odds of the other person in that group being mafia has now doubled once we swap to lynching them! As long as everyone works together and has no ulterior motives, I think this game is super gameable

[Extreme Ways]

Extreme - what kind of message would a role blocked townie get back?

Town Tracker: Unable to track <person>
Town Motion Detector: Unable to detect motion at <person>
Town Odd Night Doctor: nothing
Town Inventor: nothing
Town Jailkeeper: nothing
Town Roleblocker: nothing
Town JOAT: depends on his action, see above

In general: Players will not be informed if their action was roleblocked. Actions with reports (Tracker, Motion Detector, Role Cop) will show the target in the report and tell them if it failed, but not why or how.

If a Town Roleblocker roleblocks a Mafia Roleblocker (or other way around), it gets more interesting.
If A roleblocks B and B roleblocks C, C's action goes through.
If A roleblocks B and B roleblocks A, but B also performs the factional nightkill, the nightkill goes through.

[pmchugh]

I'm just wondering if there might be a mathematical way of devising an optimal pattern of role uses for town.
I observe there are 15 green placings on the matrix, and 15 players in the set up.
It might be possible to predetermine a sequence of what each "power" town role would do each night.
I think it would be complicated and difficult to maintain.
And I'm not sure about it at all.

Just throwing the germs of an idea out there rather than argue myself out of an idea...

Big FOS on loose for coming up with a whacky town plan, he did that last game as scum. Not sure what you even mean by a plan. I can give generic advice to each role, like, tracker and roleblocker wants to get all 3 uses out of their role if possible so you probably want to use it easily, inventor definitely early, joat wants to save the protect for a other claimed PR probably, but I cant possibly see how you could come up with a sophisticated plan??

This doesn't make sense.

[pmchugh]

I have a theory on how to maximise the power of town.

There are 7 possible town roles

Town Tracker +1
Town Motion +2
Town Inventor +3
Town Joat +4
Towbn Even Night +5
Town Odd night +6
Town roleblocker +7

And we have sign up order;
1. Strike
2 Devante
3 PMC
4 Vot
5 Swang
6 LC
7 DDS
8 King
9 Kong
10 Pix
11 Max
12 Rag
13 Charle
14 Fusi
15 Traf

So what if the Town Tracker added 1 to his sign up Number Town motion add2 to his sign up number etc.. Town roleb +7 to determine who to use abilities on N1.
And maybe Town Tracker -1 N2 , Town motion -2 N2 Town Invent -3 N2 etc
Then extending this into N3 maybe Town Tracker +6, Town Motion +7 Town Invent +8

What I think this would do is as the Town Power Roles are eliminated from D2 onwards, at least if they had followed this pattern we would know who they had used their ability on N1, and for a town power eliminated D3 onwards we would know who they had used their ability on N1 and N2.

Wouldn't this leverage more power/information from Town Power roles once they are eliminated?

Oh, so your idea of a plan is to telegraph all our moves? I would much rather, e.g. the Tracker track someone they find suspicious and under the radar rather than just whoever happens to come after them in the list of players.

[pmchugh]

Early vibe lists.

Sus list
1. Swang
2. Traf
3. Loose
4. Charle

Neutral
1. Vot - on the one hand, his usual self, on the other, in one post seems almost parody levels of himself and ignored a second joke vote starting a wagon
2. Raigan
3. Kingm
4. Dds

Town
1. Kong
2. Maxleod

Too scared to rate
Strike

[pmchugh]

It does feel like game theory can be of some use here even if the above has issues - another option of course would be to have a lynching candidate in mind as part of a group of three. Then, all we would need is for the mafia to kindly reveal one other person in that group of three as not mafia (through giving them an early retirement), and the odds of the other person in that group being mafia has now doubled once we swap to lynching them! As long as everyone works together and has no ulterior motives, I think this game is super gameable

Wait, what? I take back the town read.

[strike wolf]

Cant we just enjoy the joke vote phase for a while once and not mediately jump into crazy theories and suggestions?

The tendency in mafia is that overcontrolling town actions especially early tends to favor the informed which in mafia is almost always the scum team.

Early vibe lists.

Sus list
1. Swang
2. Traf
3. Loose
4. Charle

Neutral
1. Vot - on the one hand, his usual self, on the other, in one post seems almost parody levels of himself and ignored a second joke vote starting a wagon
2. Raigan
3. Kingm
4. Dds

Town
1. Kong
2. Maxleod

Too scared to rate
Strike

Don't see the point of posting a vibe list yet. Pretty sure there's some players that haven't even posted yet. I get Loose being on your suss list but what do you feel is suss about Swang, Traf or Charle?

[Loose Canon]

PMC, Vot what exactly does my theory give away - because I don't think it gives away anything.

Lets say for example - I am Town Odd Night which gives me +6 to my number 7 - that means I would use my ability on Charle.
If I'm eliminated D2 onwards everyone would know I was Town Odd Night and had used my ability on Charle.
Which is information for Town.

But Scum can't use the system to work out roles.

So go on, stop being armchair know it alls - what is wrong with my theory if you really do know it all?

[pmchugh]

Cant we just enjoy the joke vote phase for a while once and not mediately jump into crazy theories and suggestions?

The tendency in mafia is that overcontrolling town actions especially early tends to favor the informed which in mafia is almost always the scum team.

Early vibe lists.

Sus list
1. Swang
2. Traf
3. Loose
4. Charle

Neutral
1. Vot - on the one hand, his usual self, on the other, in one post seems almost parody levels of himself and ignored a second joke vote starting a wagon
2. Raigan
3. Kingm
4. Dds

Town
1. Kong
2. Maxleod

Too scared to rate
Strike

Don't see the point of posting a vibe list yet. Pretty sure there's some players that haven't even posted yet. I get Loose being on your suss list but what do you feel is suss about Swang, Traf or Charle?

Last game my early reads lists were better than my subsequent days lol . And why not, it generates chat and is super annoying for mafia to copy. It's just pure pro town.

I don't want to give much away on charle yet, I was his mafia team mate so I think I know him well.

Not buying traf struggling to understand the setup.

Swang is just pure vibes.

[pmchugh]

PMC, Vot what exactly does my theory give away - because I don't think it gives away anything.

Lets say for example - I am Town Odd Night which gives me +6 to my number 7 - that means I would use my ability on Charle.
If I'm eliminated D2 onwards everyone would know I was Town Odd Night and had used my ability on Charle.
Which is information for Town.

But Scum can't use the system to work out roles.

So go on, stop being armchair know it alls - what is wrong with my theory if you really do know it all?

Because charle may be a bad choice to protect? What if he is one of the most sussed players? Are you still going to protect him with your altenating Night Power?

It's taking all of town moves and ensuring they are used randomly, surely we can do better than random?

Also, it provides predcitability for mafia. Say that me and vot were both mafia (that would be fun), we would know vot wouldn't be tracked (except by joat) because I am not the tracker but I am the name before him in the list.

[strike wolf]

PMC, Vot what exactly does my theory give away - because I don't think it gives away anything.

Lets say for example - I am Town Odd Night which gives me +6 to my number 7 - that means I would use my ability on Charle.
If I'm eliminated D2 onwards everyone would know I was Town Odd Night and had used my ability on Charle.
Which is information for Town.

But Scum can't use the system to work out roles.

So go on, stop being armchair know it alls - what is wrong with my theory if you really do know it all?

Well for one, say you're mafia and you determine the numbers. You could rig the numbers so that the tracker or other investigative roles are less likely to hit you or your scum buddies or that the doc would be more likely to land on one of your own.

Cant we just enjoy the joke vote phase for a while once and not mediately jump into crazy theories and suggestions?

The tendency in mafia is that overcontrolling town actions especially early tends to favor the informed which in mafia is almost always the scum team.

Early vibe lists.

Sus list
1. Swang
2. Traf
3. Loose
4. Charle

Neutral
1. Vot - on the one hand, his usual self, on the other, in one post seems almost parody levels of himself and ignored a second joke vote starting a wagon
2. Raigan
3. Kingm
4. Dds

Town
1. Kong
2. Maxleod

Too scared to rate
Strike

Don't see the point of posting a vibe list yet. Pretty sure there's some players that haven't even posted yet. I get Loose being on your suss list but what do you feel is suss about Swang, Traf or Charle?

Last game my early reads lists were better than my subsequent days lol . And why not, it generates chat and is super annoying for mafia to copy. It's just pure pro town.

I don't want to give much away on charle yet, I was his mafia team mate so I think I know him well.

Not buying traf struggling to understand the setup.

Swang is just pure vibes.

I guess this makes sense. I thought you were early in the last game but even then this seems even earlier.

Admittedly, I didn't get the set up exactly at first but also kind of realized I had misread one of the clues.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

I have a theory on how to maximise the power of town.

There are 7 possible town roles

Town Tracker +1
Town Motion +2
Town Inventor +3
Town Joat +4
Towbn Even Night +5
Town Odd night +6
Town roleblocker +7

And we have sign up order;
1. Strike
2 Devante
3 PMC
4 Vot
5 Swang
6 LC
7 DDS
8 King
9 Kong
10 Pix
11 Max
12 Rag
13 Charle
14 Fusi
15 Traf

So what if the Town Tracker added 1 to his sign up Number Town motion add2 to his sign up number etc.. Town roleb +7 to determine who to use abilities on N1.
And maybe Town Tracker -1 N2 , Town motion -2 N2 Town Invent -3 N2 etc
Then extending this into N3 maybe Town Tracker +6, Town Motion +7 Town Invent +8

What I think this would do is as the Town Power Roles are eliminated from D2 onwards, at least if they had followed this pattern we would know who they had used their ability on N1, and for a town power eliminated D3 onwards we would know who they had used their ability on N1 and N2.

Wouldn't this leverage more power/information from Town Power roles once they are eliminated?

Also this is not true, right?

I mean if I understand correctly we play under one variant of the matrix we just don't know which, so we won't have 7 town roles, just 3. Seems having an invetor would be really usefull. But we don't know the mafia numbers. Or does the matrix move?

As usual I think D1 is not really useful and with less town roles even less.

[kongming3]

It does feel like game theory can be of some use here even if the above has issues - another option of course would be to have a lynching candidate in mind as part of a group of three. Then, all we would need is for the mafia to kindly reveal one other person in that group of three as not mafia (through giving them an early retirement), and the odds of the other person in that group being mafia has now doubled once we swap to lynching them! As long as everyone works together and has no ulterior motives, I think this game is super gameable

Wait, what? I take back the town read.

You are of course fully welcome to still hold reservations about it, but I would like to clarify before we move past it that it was very much intended tongue-in-cheek as a response to LC's proposition. Using the Monty hall problem in this way would not work, and suggesting that the only requirement for us to carry it out was total cooperation and no ulterior motives in a social deception game was meant to make that clear, but I apologize for any resulting confusion!

[Devante]

Barely been able to catch up on this, I'm in farming mode in RL, but the thing I found the most disturbing, the most annoying, the most useless piece of information.....

Was Loose's horrible attempt at a math strategy that would definitely kill town and really only work for scum

So...

VOTE LOOSE

[pmchugh]

As usual I think D1 is not really useful and with less town roles even less.

Can you explain your reasoning here? Surely, the less good that can happen at night, the more useful day 1 is? Like if we had voted for the pure vanilla version with no Town PRs, nothing good can happen at night.

I guess the motion detector is actually pretty decent in this setup, because there will only be 2 other Town PRs and at least 2 scum moving, possibly 3.

@kong, ah, fair enough.

[Ragian]

I think others have covered how I feel about Loose's plan, so no need to for me. I'll just say what should always be said: 1) Don't give away info to scum in a dumbass attempt "to figure out the setup". It doesn't help town. 2) Speak and accuse. This generates intel in the long run. We can't rely on dumb luck like a cop hitting scum D1.

Also, Vote PMS who is back to purposefully misspelling my name. Go get him, DDS!

[pmchugh]

I think others have covered how I feel about Loose's plan, so no need to for me. I'll just say what should always be said: 1) Don't give away info to scum in a dumbass attempt "to figure out the setup". It doesn't help town. 2) Speak and accuse. This generates intel in the long run. We can't rely on dumb luck like a cop hitting scum D1.

Also, Vote PMS who is back to purposefully misspelling my name. Go get him, DDS!

Good points all round ragnian.

[DirtyDishSoap]

You just called him a menstrual cycle. I'm not getting involved in Tunis Ramen