Deciding Map Complexity

[Coleman]

Here is our latest list...

Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coarl Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate

Alexander's Empire
BeNeLux
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Extreme Global Warming
Feudal Wars
Great Lakes
Italy
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Philippines
San Francisco
Space
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima


3) Complex

American Civil War
Berlin 1961
Crossword
Duck and Cover
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
King of the Mountains
Siege!
Solar System
USApocalypse
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts

4) Extreme

Age of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Bamboo Jack
Battle of Actium
Conquer Man
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
Valley of the Kings

What we did is put stuff into 4 basic groups.

1) Simple - If you understand risk you can just read the continent values, and jump in and play.

2) Moderate - If you understand risk you can understand this, but you'll need to read a rule or two in the legend first to get it. You could probably still jump in and play and be alright though.

3) Complex - It can be understood, but it make take you some reading and a bit of playing before you fully get it, there are many rules. Can't just jump in and play without reading or you'll miss things.

4) Extreme - You pretty much need BOB or have an avid background in strategy games before you can understand this map. Even with reading through all the rules you could still be confused and miss things without several play throughs.

Any disagreements need to be brought up and handled before the new UI hire is here so we can give him/her something solid that is representative of our collective opinion.

[oaktown]

nice- was just thinking about a three tier system this morning, but I like the addition of freaking weird.

I would also like to add some caveat about map size. Doodle Earth is very straightforward, but the strategies that make you successful on Classic may not transfer over. Extremely small and extremely large maps will require some rethinking about how you play them.

[Coleman]

Well I agree, and that is useful debate. However even though the strategies may be a bit different, it is still simple in that you can just read the continent values, see the layout, and know how it works.

I'm sure a player can look at the image before jumping in and go, "ehh maybe I don't want to play that" for the reasons you just brought up. While clicking Pearl Harbor and looking at it can be deceiving until it's too late and you are knee deep in it.

[gimil]

Classic
Africa
Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Alexander's Empire
American Civil War
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Bamboo Jack
Battle For Australia
Battle Of Actium
BeNeLux
Berlin 1961
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Conquer Man
Crossword
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Discworld
Doodle Earth
Duck and Cover
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
Feudal Wars
France
Germany
Great Lakes
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
King of the Mountains
Madness
Malta
Middle Earth
Middle East
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Montreal
North America
Pearl Harbor
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
Rail USA
San Francisco
Scotland
Siege!
Solar System
South America
Space
Tamriel
USA
USApocalypse
U.S. Senate
Valley Of The Kings
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts


this is my inital draft, i will probably change bit under further revieve

[nagerous]

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Alexander's Empire
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
BeNeLux
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
Siege!
South America
USA
U.S. Senate
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front

2) Moderate


American Civil War
Battle For Australia
Berlin 1961
Circus Maximus
Crossword
Discworld
Duck and Cover
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Hong Kong
King of the Mountains
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Philippines
San Francisco
Space
Tamriel
USApocalypse
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts


3) Complex

Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Feudal Wars
Rail USA
Solar System
Valley Of The Kings


4) Hardcore/Extreme


Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Conquer Man
Pearl Harbor



Just my opinion though some of the ones in the last category are only because I haven't tried playing them yet.



Edit... Moved Iwo Jima and changed the 4th group name.

[Coleman]

In response to gimil. Well new players sometimes wonder about CCU because of the parking lot and the quad or whatever that central part was called not being worth anything. Which isn't comfortable for a risk veteran right away.

We don't get a lot (maybe not any) posted complaints about it, but I've been in games with people confused slightly back when I first joined. So I'd suggest changing that to Standard.

Otherwise nothing is jumping out at me from in there besides some debate on what makes something Freaking Weird vs Complex, but that can wait tell some more people post their thoughts and we can see what isn't matching.

[yeti_c]

Cue DiM coming in and saying all his maps are easy!?!?

C.

[Coleman]

Cue DiM coming in and saying all his maps are easy!?!?

C.

He's free to do that.

[gimil]

In response to gimil. Well new players sometimes wonder about CCU because of the parking lot and the quad or whatever that central part was called not being worth anything. Which isn't comfortable for a risk veteran right away.

We don't get a lot (maybe not any) posted complaints about it, but I've been in games with people confused slightly back when I first joined. So I'd suggest changing that to Standard.

Otherwise nothing is jumping out at me from in there besides some debate on what makes something Freaking Weird vs Complex, but that can wait tell some more people post their thoughts and we can see what isn't matching.

I agree there ill change CCU

[DiM]

Cue DiM coming in and saying all his maps are easy!?!?

C.

He's free to do that.

but i won't. if you guys think CCU is moderate difficulty because of the quad terit then i guess anything i say is pretty much useless.

i want to know 1 thing before i submit my opinion.

are we considering new players to be some kind of retards with a negative IQ or are we considering them normal people? and by normal people what IQ do you have in mind? 50? 100? 150?

tell me that and i'll try my best.

because so far some maps are (imho) totally different rated. i see easy maps rated complex i see very hard maps rated as moderate and so on. really weird.

in order to do this right you have to put yourself in the shoes of an average new player.
has anybody bothered to see what the average new player is like? perhaps CC attracts mostly idiots or perhaps it attracts risk veterans.

in any online game 2 types of people join.
1. people that have played that game or something similar before (highest rate of remaining)
2. people that join for the sake of joining (highest rate of making an account starting 4 games and never returning)

which one of the two types are you targeting? i'm type 1 with 10+ years of xp in real risk and if i join now i'll find all maps easy with a few moderates.
if you target type 2 then no map is easy and the rating should start straight from complex since they don't even know how to deploy and what the bonuses mean, let alone understand bombardments and decay.

so decide your target and then analyse the target. only after you do that you'll be able to remotely achieve some form of accuracy.

[Coleman]

When you post your thoughts, I want the target to be you. Post exactly what you think even if you believe we might disagree or that a normal player may be less intelligent then what you are saying.

My comments from CCU are for experience, the guy wanted to know what the Parking Lot was worth and didn't understand my saying nothing. I think the log is still there so I could go find it. It was in the first month I joined.

[Bad Speler]

My opinions:

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
Malta
Middle Earth
Middle East
Mongol Empire
Montreal
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
San Francisco
South America
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate

Alexander's Empire
BeNeLux
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
CCU
Discworld
Duck and Cover
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Madness
Midkemdil
Philippines
Scotland
Space
Tamriel
USApocalypse
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts

3) Complex

American Civil War
Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Berlin 1961
Crossword
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Feudal Wars
King of the Mountains
Rail USA
Siege!
Solar System
Valley Of The Kings


4) Freaking Weird

Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Conquer Man
Pearl Harbor

[yeti_c]

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Alexander's Empire
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
BeNeLux
Brazil
British Isles
Canada
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
North America
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
WWII Eastern Front

2) Moderate


American Civil War
Battle For Australia
Cairns Coral Coast
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
King of the Mountains
Malta
Madness
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
San Francisco
Siege!
Space
Tamriel
U.S. Senate
World 2.1
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts


3) Complex


Conquer Man
Crossword
Berlin 1961
Duck and Cover
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Feudal Wars
Solar System
USApocalypse
Valley Of The Kings
WWII Iwo Jima


4) Hardcore


Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA


C.

PS I changed the title of the last group...

[wcaclimbing]

in any online game 2 types of people join.
1. people that have played that game or something similar before (highest rate of remaining)
2. people that join for the sake of joining (highest rate of making an account starting 4 games and never returning)

I think we are gearing it towards the slightly stupid version of number 1. For the smart guys out there, they can just realize that they will be able to play the most complex map out there without a problem, making the difficulty rating useless to them.

If we aimed the ratings more at the stupid kids that still slightly understand the game, it would work better. the best guys just dont have to use the complexity rating, but they will know that they wont have much trouble playing on any map on the site. For the lower guys, the complexity rating would help a lot, cause if they know that anything in the Complex category confuses them, they will know which ones to try out and what to stay away from.

[Coleman]

Hardcore is probably better.

[Coleman]

in any online game 2 types of people join.
1. people that have played that game or something similar before (highest rate of remaining)
2. people that join for the sake of joining (highest rate of making an account starting 4 games and never returning)

I think we are gearing it towards the slightly stupid version of number 1. For the smart guys out there, they can just realize that they will be able to play the most complex map out there without a problem, making the difficulty rating useless to them.

If we aimed the ratings more at the stupid kids that still slightly understand the game, it would work better. the best guys just dont have to use the complexity rating, but they will know that they wont have much trouble playing on any map on the site. For the lower guys, the complexity rating would help a lot, cause if they know that anything in the Complex category confuses them, they will know which ones to try out and what to stay away from.

On top of that the players that just don't like the complex/hardcore maps can just use this anyway so they can not have them in their list.

[DiM]

When you post your thoughts, I want the target to be you. Post exactly what you think even if you believe we might disagree or that a normal player may be less intelligent then what you are saying.

but that's wrong. the complexity should be done to help new players not us. get 5 risk veterans to rate them and they'll say they are all easy. get 5 noobs and they'll say they're all hard. to get a helpful and accurate result you must first decide your target, then you must rate that target and only after that you may start deciding the rating for each map.
simply asking us and then taking the average result won't be good because that average result may be too much for a retard or it may be too low for a risk fan.

test the market. ask a few noobs what they think decide how smart they are, do some research and then rate maps.

if all the people are like the guy in your CCU example or like the people that come in the forum and ask what are cards for or how do they attack then by all means rate all maps as complex and weird. because they can't grasp even the basic knowledge needed for this game.

My comments from CCU are for experience, the guy wanted to know what the Parking Lot was worth and didn't understand my saying nothing. I think the log is still there so I could go find it. It was in the first month I joined.

i'm sure you're right. i don't doubt it. i've seen people ask the dumbest questions.

[Coleman]

Anyway, one or two more lists and I'll take all the ones everyone is putting in the same place out of our debate.

I'd like to see what DiM's list is done the way he thinks he should do it. So if you are up for that DiM, as you have a different opinion of the average player then the rest of us that is valuable.

[yeti_c]

DiM - you're making this far too much work than it really is - just rate them on what you reckon a newish person would see them as...

C.

[DiM]

DiM - you're making this far too much work than it really is - just rate them on what you reckon a newish person would see them as...

C.

the problem is i can't rate them as a noob would rate them because i don't know what that noob is like.


also one other question that popped in my head

what will this complexity mean?

will it be about understanding how the map works? will it be about how complex a game is on that map?

because doodle is very simple. but a game on it can be really really complex depending on the settings and opponents.

also will you rate game types?

because a 1v1 game on doodle is very easy to play
but an 8p assassin is really tough.

oh, and i'm not trying to make it more complex than it is. i'm actually trying to explain you guys how complex it really is. jumping in and putting some ratings as you like will not produce good results. research is needed.
you can't solve a problem by guessing you need all the data before making all the calculations.

[Coleman]

I'm rating is based on how easy it is to understand the basic layout and rules of the map. That's it. Nothing else. Emergent strategy is the player's responsibility and there is no way we could all agree on that and rate it.

We can agree that, say, Thai Burma Railway has about 8 extra rules written out and that building layout is a bit confusing at first. Making it at the very least Complex.

We aren't saying the strategy may be hard or complex, we are just saying a new player can't show up, start playing, and know exactly what is going on if he refuses to read a bit.

[Night Strike]

Anyway, one or two more lists and I'll take all the ones everyone is putting in the same place out of our debate.

I'm going to take the time to post my list in a few hours (after I go to lunch and lab). I think it would be good to have the opinions of some experienced players who aren't cartographers.

By the way, I've played on most of the maps.

[DiM]

I'm rating is based on how easy it is to understand the basic layout and rules of the map. That's it. Nothing else. Emergent strategy is the player's responsibility and there is no way we could all agree on that and rate it.

We can agree that, say, Thai Burma Railway has about 8 extra rules written out and that building layout is a bit confusing at first. Making it at the very least Complex.

We aren't saying the strategy may be hard or complex, we are just saying a new player can't show up, start playing, and know exactly what is going on if he refuses to read a bit.

hmm ok.
i'll post several lists later (when i get to work) for various types of noobs. pick whatever you want.

[Coleman]

Some posts in gimil's general Map Foundry topic may help better outline the importance of this.

[mibi]

I think EXPERT might be better than HARDCORE