Deciding Map Complexity

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:20 pm

Coleman wrote:Some posts in gimil's general Map Foundry topic may help better outline the importance of this.

what posts? the ones that say: "i hate complex maps because i'm too lazy to read 3 lines of text in the legend" ???

then perhaps the ratings should be:

Lazy Retard (yeah i'm useless)

I have a brain but i'm to lazy to even try using it

Average Joe.

Einstein is my idol

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:24 pm

DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:Some posts in gimil's general Map Foundry topic may help better outline the importance of this.
what posts? the ones that say: "i hate complex maps because i'm too lazy to read 3 lines of text in the legend" ???

then perhaps the ratings should be:

Lazy Retard (yeah i'm useless)

I have a brain but i'm to lazy to even try using it

Average Joe.

Einstein is my idol

DiM sure you understand working in management any information is valuable, there more if 3 lines of text make someone feel that a map is a little more difficult then that information to take into consideration.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:26 pm

I'd go with DiM's categories if I was slightly less opposed to offending people. As it is, we can keep the current ones and just think that when looking at them.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:29 pm

gimil wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:Some posts in gimil's general Map Foundry topic may help better outline the importance of this.
what posts? the ones that say: "i hate complex maps because i'm too lazy to read 3 lines of text in the legend" ???

then perhaps the ratings should be:

Lazy Retard (yeah i'm useless)

I have a brain but i'm to lazy to even try using it

Average Joe.

Einstein is my idol
DiM sure you understand working in management any information is valuable, there more if 3 lines of text make someone feel that a map is a little more difficult then that information to take into consideration.

i'm not very sure i understand what you say in the bolded part.

but my point was that if a guy is too lazy to read 3 lines of text then that doesn't mean a map is complex.
if he does read those 3 lines and still has no clue then he's either stupid or the map is indeed complex.

if a guy is too lazy to hold his willy and he always pees on his shoes, does that mean that peeing is complex? or does it mean that he's stupid and lazy?

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:35 pm

I'm not sure what the point is in forcing someone to play maps where they would need to read three lines of text if they don't want to.

This would allow them to more easily avoid it.

I agree three lines of text usually isn't complex. That would fall into moderate if it can't be denied these three lines of text are moderately important to playing the map.

If the three lines of text are along the lines of: Dunny's can attack other dunny's followed by a long list of alternate names for dunnies a bit of the user friendliness is gone. Especially when BOB shows you this isn't always the case.

Night Strike · Post by **Night Strike** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:28 pm

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Alexander's Empire
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
BeNeLux
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
Siege!
South America
USA
U.S. Senate
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front

2) Moderate

American Civil War
Berlin 1961
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Crossword
Discworld
Duck and Cover
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Italy
King of the Mountains
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Philippines
San Francisco
Space
Tamriel
USApocalypse
8 Thoughts

3) Complex

Age Of Merchants
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Feudal Wars
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
Solar System
Valley Of The Kings
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front

4) Freaking Weird

Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Conquer Man

I took nagerous' post and made some tweaks to it.
I put WWII Western Front in complex from the problems with not being able to attack and move into England, as well as not needing every capital for a bonus.
Pearl Harbor is in complex because everything is pretty well spelled out and it doesn't have the semi-confusing map layout of several others in Freaking Weird.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:34 pm

That's funny because I don't consider Battle of Actium to be that weird while I think Pearl Harbor is the most confusing map we have. Guess I should do my list soon, and then see what's been consistently placed so we can forget about it.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:39 pm

asuming our target of new players consists of mostly retards and players that never saw a game of risk in their life i made the following selection

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle Earth
Middle East
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
South America
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate

Alexander's Empire
American Civil War
BeNeLux
British Isles
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Discworld
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Italy
Madness
Malta
Mongol Empire
Montreal
Philippines
Scotland
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front

3) Complex

Circus Maximus
Crossword
Duck and Cover
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Midkemdil
San Francisco
Siege!
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts

4) Freaking Weird

Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Berlin 1961
Conquer Man
Feudal Wars
King of the Mountains
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
Solar System
Space
USApocalypse
Valley Of The Kings

edit// if somehow we find out the iq of the average people i reserve the right to make changes in the above list. so far i guess the ratings would fit a person with an iq of 80

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:42 pm

Coleman wrote:That's funny because I don't consider Battle of Actium to be that weird while I think Pearl Harbor is the most confusing map we have. Guess I should do my list soon, and then see what's been consistently placed so we can forget about it.

i rated them at the same level but for different reasons.

actium is really confusing with the way cairnswk used hexagons.
much like crosswords, actium causes confusion because of the way it is displayed.

harbor is more clear but it's complexity comes from collections bombardments one ways and stuff like that.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:45 pm

Well, that was all very helpful. I'll have to analyze this later as something just came up at work that means I get to do something.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:45 pm

DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:That's funny because I don't consider Battle of Actium to be that weird while I think Pearl Harbor is the most confusing map we have. Guess I should do my list soon, and then see what's been consistently placed so we can forget about it.
i rated them at the same level but for different reasons.

actium is really confusing with the way cairnswk used hexagons.
much like crosswords, actium causes confusion because of the way it is displayed.

harbor is more clear but it's complexity comes from collections bombardments one ways and stuff like that.

It's the double Hexagons as one territory that's weird and the bombarding of someone next to you!!

C.

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:46 pm

sorry but what the hell is complex about Mongol Empire. A few of you have it in the moderate category and that's just silly. Possibly it happened because the first person put it there and people didn't move it back

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:47 pm

edbeard wrote:sorry but what the hell is complex about Mongol Empire. A few of you have it in the moderate category and that's just silly. Possibly it happened because the first person put it there and people didn't move it back

i didnt put it there

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:48 pm

edbeard wrote:sorry but what the hell is complex about Mongol Empire. A few of you have it in the moderate category and that's just silly. Possibly it happened because the first person put it there and people didn't move it back

I'm with you on this. It's simple as far as I know.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:50 pm

edbeard wrote:sorry but what the hell is complex about Mongol Empire. A few of you have it in the moderate category and that's just silly. Possibly it happened because the first person put it there and people didn't move it back

I've not played it yet... so wasn't sure whether to move it...

C.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:51 pm

edbeard wrote:sorry but what the hell is complex about Mongol Empire. A few of you have it in the moderate category and that's just silly. Possibly it happened because the first person put it there and people didn't move it back

i don't know about others but i added it because it has 4 different impassables that aren't explained anywhere and it also has a trade route that's not explained.

people might come and ask if you can attack along a trade route. or why can you attack since it's a trade route not an attack route, or they could even come and ask what can they trade.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:53 pm

DiM wrote:or they could even come and ask what can they trade.

Great, 2 people stared at me after I burst laughing from that.

Well done I guess.

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:53 pm

I'd say DiM's list is the best thus far.

I'd switch Mongol Empire and Scotland

That's probably it.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:56 pm

Am I the only person that put Conquerman in Red not Purple?

I don't think it's that hard?!

Attacks are very basic - the only thing you need to think about is territory bonus!?

C.

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:57 pm

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Mongol Empire
Middle Earth
Middle East
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate

Alexander's Empire
American Civil War
BeNeLux
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Italy
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Montreal
Philippines
San Francisco
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front

3) Complex

Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Berlin 1961
Crossword
Duck and Cover
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Space
Siege!
USApocalypse
Valley Of The Kings
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts

4) Hardcore/Extreme

Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Conquer Man
Feudal Wars
King of the Mountains
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
Solar System

==============
Something like that...maybe.

--Andy

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:57 pm

edbeard wrote:I'd say DiM's list is the best thus far.

oddly enough that saddens me a bit.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:57 pm

yeti_c wrote:Am I the only person that put Conquerman in Red not Purple?

I don't think it's that hard?!

Attacks are very basic - the only thing you need to think about is territory bonus!?

C.

I put it in red but I feel biased. I really should post my list shouldn't I.

In about 3 or 4 hours I'll come up with something to further streamline what we are doing. (get most of the maps out of our line of sight).

benjikat · Post by **benjikat** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:58 pm

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Brazil
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle Earth
Middle East
Mongol Empire
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate

Alexander's Empire
Battle For Australia
BeNeLux
British Isles
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Discworld
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Italy
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Montreal
Philippines
San Francisco
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima

3) Complex

American Civil War
Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Circus Maximus
Crossword
Duck and Cover
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
King of the Mountains
Siege!
Solar System
Space
USApocalypse
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts

4) Freaking Weird

Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Berlin 1961
Conquer Man
Feudal Wars
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
Valley Of The Kings

I haven't found any map particularly taxing ever, so I have based this on the difficulties expressed by my opponents.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:58 pm

DiM wrote:
edbeard wrote:I'd say DiM's list is the best thus far.

oddly enough that saddens me a bit.

I'm not sure how many open games you play but people are Dumb with a capital D in general.

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:59 pm

DiM wrote:
edbeard wrote:I'd say DiM's list is the best thus far.

oddly enough that saddens me a bit.

well these lists are best made for people that haven't played risk ever or in a long time

Since your list was geared towards this idea, your list is the best.