Deciding Map Complexity

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:59 pm

Coleman, have you considered post this...or perhaps a link to this, in the General Discussion? Get some feedback from more non-cartographers.

--Andy

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:00 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Coleman, have you considered post this...or perhaps a link to this, in the General Discussion? Get some feedback from more non-cartographers.

--Andy

I guess so. Gimil could just mention it in his post. I'll ask him. Don't need more then one post in general about maps today I don't think.

Night Strike · Post by **Night Strike** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:10 pm

DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:That's funny because I don't consider Battle of Actium to be that weird while I think Pearl Harbor is the most confusing map we have. Guess I should do my list soon, and then see what's been consistently placed so we can forget about it.
i rated them at the same level but for different reasons.

actium is really confusing with the way cairnswk used hexagons.
much like crosswords, actium causes confusion because of the way it is displayed.

harbor is more clear but it's complexity comes from collections bombardments one ways and stuff like that.

The hexagons is why I rated Battle of Actium as Freaking Confusing. That map and Bamboo Jack just have so many connections that it is hard to find a good place to work out from, which also adds complexity.

I can see why Pearl Harbor is so hard, but I feel things are clearly explained. Same on Age of Merchants.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:12 pm

I think we are confusing complexity and difficulty a bit. But I agree with what Night Strike said with different wording. Although I still think Actium is complex but not as impossible as you make it out to be, but I may be an extreme position there.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:24 pm

Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
edbeard wrote:I'd say DiM's list is the best thus far.

oddly enough that saddens me a bit.
I'm not sure how many open games you play but people are Dumb with a capital D in general.

most of my games are public. not lately though.

and the fact that sumb peple are so many is the part that saddens me.

lately, and when i say lately i mean 10+ years, stupidity has been considered something normal. people no longer feel ashamed of being stupid, they no longer strive to improve. they simply accept the fact that they are stupid. and to a certain degree stupidity has become somewhat cool. people no longer care about reading a good book or listening to some great music. and those that do are considered geeks nerds and stuff like that.

back when i was in school the classroom idiot was the pariah, the black sheep the renegated one that nobody cared about. now the idiots rule the schools and if you have perfect grades then you're the modern outcast.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:28 pm

Interesting where you are going with that. I'm perfectly fine with running their lives for them when I'm out of college and they are working my gas stations or stocking my shelves or cleaning my bathrooms.

I think this will improve play experience for you in the end. Less tards joining games they have no chance of playing well.

Since I know we invited purists back here from general, we don't think you are stupid. Our goals with this are different for you. We want the maps you like to be easy access. But we also want new players to not get in over their head and leave day one without understanding they just experienced the wrong part of the site for them.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:31 pm

edbeard wrote:
DiM wrote:
edbeard wrote:I'd say DiM's list is the best thus far.

oddly enough that saddens me a bit.
well these lists are best made for people that haven't played risk ever or in a long time

Since your list was geared towards this idea, your list is the best.

actually my list was made for people that have an iq of 80 and have little or no xp with risk.

basically mo model is 14yo 80 iq played risk a few times or never and is willing to invest just a bit of effort into CC. he's the perfect guy for easy maps. moderate are still achievable but with a bit of attention which he's willing to do but complex and hardcore maps are well beyond his mental capabilities and he will play them decently only after a lot of games fueled by passion or something like that. so if the theme or the graphics don't attract him a lot he'll never bother understanding the gameplay.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:46 pm

DiM wrote: lately, and when i say lately i mean 10+ years, stupidity has been considered something normal. people no longer feel ashamed of being stupid, they no longer strive to improve. they simply accept the fact that they are stupid. and to a certain degree stupidity has become somewhat cool. people no longer care about reading a good book or listening to some great music. and those that do are considered geeks nerds and stuff like that.

back when i was in school the classroom idiot was the pariah, the black sheep the renegated one that nobody cared about. now the idiots rule the schools and if you have perfect grades then you're the modern outcast.

You went to a different school to me!!! I was bullied for being more intelligent than the people in years above me... Then again - I didn't give a shit - they bullied me - I hit them... QED!!

Being big and clever has it's advantages!!!

C.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:00 pm

Coleman wrote:I really should post my list shouldn't I.

YES

C.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:00 pm

yeti_c wrote:
DiM wrote: lately, and when i say lately i mean 10+ years, stupidity has been considered something normal. people no longer feel ashamed of being stupid, they no longer strive to improve. they simply accept the fact that they are stupid. and to a certain degree stupidity has become somewhat cool. people no longer care about reading a good book or listening to some great music. and those that do are considered geeks nerds and stuff like that.

back when i was in school the classroom idiot was the pariah, the black sheep the renegated one that nobody cared about. now the idiots rule the schools and if you have perfect grades then you're the modern outcast.
You went to a different school to me!!! I was bullied for being more intelligent than the people in years above me... Then again - I didn't give a shit - they bullied me - I hit them... QED!!

Being big and clever has it's advantages!!!

C.

you're in western europe i'm in eastern europe. it's common knowledge we're at least 20 years behind you. oddly enough that also means we have smarter people. but those smart people are getting dumber each second because we're aiming for a western type society.

at the moment one of the biggest and best exports my country has is intelligence. the highly educated romanian workforce is a very appreciated commodity.

it's a very interesting paradox. rich countries are filled with dumb people tha pay smart people from poor country to work for the dumb people.

we live in a very mixed society.

PS: despite being what others would call a geek i was never bullied for this reason. i was bullied for being small (yes i was the shortest kid in elementary and in hghschool). but usually the bullies got more hurt than me because i'm well known for being a totally crazy person when it comes to fighting. i would do anything to anybody regardless of size differences. i have on my list several broken limbs, noses, lips, teeth, i have hospitalized at least a dozen people and the funniest bit is when i beat a guy (18years old me just 13) with steel pipe. he stayed in hospital for almost 3 months had surgery on his jaw, his head, a few teeth replaced, 1 testicle removed and 1 broken arm. all because he humiliated me then beat the crap out of me. and as i was saying the funniest thing is that police came to my house and wanted to arrest me but since there were no witnesses and they saw me so small they didn't believe him

PS: btw i'm no longer little at 90+ killos

edit// did i mention we're still neighbors and we have a very good relationship? weird how things change.

fireedud · Post by **fireedud** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:02 pm

Personnally this is what the maps are to me:

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Brazil
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle East
Mongol Empire
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
U.S. Senate
CCU
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima
Alexander's Empire
Battle For Australia
BeNeLux
British Isles
San Francisco
Philippines
Montreal
Circus Maximus
Crossword
Duck and Cover

2) Moderate

Chinese Checkers
Discworld
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
Middle Earth
Great Lakes
Italy
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Tamriel
American Civil War
Battle Of Actium
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
King of the Mountains
Siege!
WWII Western Front
Rail USA
Feudal Wars

3) Complex

Bamboo Jack
Solar System
Space
USApocalypse
8 Thoughts
Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Berlin 1961
Pearl Harbor
Valley Of The Kings
Conquer Man

4) Whatever the name is now

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:03 pm

"90+ Kills"

Eeesk - run away!!!

C.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:08 pm

yeti_c wrote:"90+ Kills"

Eeesk - run away!!!

C.

it's killos not kills. people might think i'm a mass murdered or something.

and by the way if i were a serial killer i would keep very well organised records of every victim and i'd never say 90+ kills i would tell you the exact number names dates locations and then i'd probably whack you

wcaclimbing · Post by **wcaclimbing** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Heres mine. I added in a quick explanation for each category, also.

1) Simple
These maps are about as simple as they can get. They are mostly similar to the standard game of Risk. Few extras in these maps, just the occasional city bonuses and 1-ways. Basically, look at any of these for 5 seconds and you will understand the basics of the map.
Classic
Africa
Alexander's Empire
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
BeNeLux
Brazil
British Isles
Canada
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle Earth
Middle East
Mongol Empire
Montreal
North America
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA

2) Moderate
These are also fairly simple, but have a few more extra effects in them. Neutral territories, bombards, and a few more complex bonus systems are in this section. Takes 30 seconds to 1 minute to learn most of these.
Cairns Coral Coast
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Duck and Cover
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Italy
King of the Mountains
Malta
San Francisco
Siege!
Solar System
Space
Tamriel
U.S. Senate
Valley Of The Kings
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima
8 Thoughts

3) Complex
These are getting even more complex. Playing setup differs greatly from the original Classic map, with multiple effects, such as bombards, neutrals, and extra bonuses. These are pretty different from the standard style of risk, and will take a bit of time to get used to.
Age of Realms: Might
American Civil War
Berlin 1961
Crossword
Feudal Wars
Madness
Midkemdil
USApocalypse
WWII Western Front

4) Freaking Weird
Grab an extra drink and a few snacks. If you are up to learning some of these, you are in for a long, confusing examination of the map. Basically, these are as complicated as they get, and most have extremely complex gameplay, very confusing setup, or are just plain messed up...
Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Conquer Man
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA

PS: i just realized, besides AoR Might, my favorite maps are all in the Simple maps section

Lone.prophet · Post by **Lone.prophet** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:36 pm

all maps with bombard/onewayattack should atleast be in moderate

wcaclimbing · Post by **wcaclimbing** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:39 pm

Lone.prophet wrote:all maps with bombard/onewayattack should atleast be in moderate

All the bombards on my list are at least moderate.

there are one or two one-ways in simple, though, but those are really easy ones.

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:49 pm

all I know is that Scotland and Great Lakes should be in the same category

The only difference complexity-wise is that the Lakes have three different bonuses for holding a certain number of lakes whilst Scotland has two different bonuses for holding a certain number of castles.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:52 pm

edbeard wrote:all I know is that Scotland and Great Lakes should be in the same category

The only difference complexity-wise is that the Lakes have three different bonuses for holding a certain number of lakes whilst Scotland has two different bonuses for holding a certain number of castles.

but there's one more problem regarding complexity. great lakes uses water as terits and a new player is used to having water as impassable.

remember to think like an idiot when deciding the complexity of maps.

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:55 pm

DiM wrote:
edbeard wrote:all I know is that Scotland and Great Lakes should be in the same category

The only difference complexity-wise is that the Lakes have three different bonuses for holding a certain number of lakes whilst Scotland has two different bonuses for holding a certain number of castles.
but there's one more problem regarding complexity. great lakes uses water as terits and a new player is used to having water as impassable.

remember to think like an idiot when deciding the complexity of maps.

that is the reason i split them up (i think)

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:58 pm

well honestly simple should include maps that have no 'gimmicks' at all. We should only have maps that are straight up classic style

So, this would not include Great Lakes or Scotland.

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:00 pm

edbeard wrote:well honestly simple should include maps that have no 'gimmicks' at all. We should only have maps that are straight up classic style

So, this would not include Great Lakes or Scotland.

I suppose that il also a valid point to take into consideration.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:07 pm

edbeard wrote:well honestly simple should include maps that have no 'gimmicks' at all. We should only have maps that are straight up classic style

So, this would not include Great Lakes or Scotland.

i put scotland in simple and great lakes in moderate because i think great lakes is more complex than scotland for the reasons stated in the previous post.

you say that neither should be in simple, then it means scotland should be in moerate and great lakes in complex? i don't like it like that so i think scotland fits well in simple (even if it is towards the border with moderate) and great lakes fits well in moderate.

also some maps don't have gimmicks at all and yet i put them as complex. crossword for example. straight forward action that has no gimmicks and yet it's very complex.

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:33 pm

I'd put them both in moderate, but the reason it doesn't belong in simple is because of this 'thinking like an idiot' thing you guys talked about. An idiot wouldn't be able to handle the castle bonus thing. So, their head would explode or whatever happens to them. This is why it belongs in moderate.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:36 pm

edbeard wrote:I'd put them both in moderate, but the reason it doesn't belong in simple is because of this 'thinking like an idiot' thing you guys talked about. An idiot wouldn't be able to handle the castle bonus thing. So, their head would explode or whatever happens to them. This is why it belongs in moderate.

perhaps one towars the low end of moderate and the other towards the middle-high. i agree. moving now in my list

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:45 pm

I am surprised to see Seige! rank with bamboo jack, 8 thoughts and actium as complex on many peoples lists.

Deciding Map Complexity

Re: Deciding Map Complexity