Deciding Map Complexity

rebelman · Post by **rebelman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:20 am

yeti_c wrote:
rebelman wrote:i think i placed feudal in complex, I can't rember where it finished but having seen Yeti's thread where Feudal falls into every category it probably should be classified as extreme.
I don't think it should though - the <required> and <overrules> are simply a way of coding the bonuses - world 2.1 could be recoded to do the same - as could USA Apocalypse...

The beauty of Feudal is that although it uses all features - it's actually very simplistic...

The AOR maps are more complex despite using less features.

C.

i just wanted to throw it out there i myself said complex but there may be a certain amount of merit in classifying it as extreme.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:22 am

No worries - a valid point - but I shot you down!!

C.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:23 am

Lets not be silly about this. Just looking at BeNeLux you can tell what the routes are and what the impassibles are.

Just because Feudal Wars uses all the xml tools, it uses them in a way that I would hardly classify as extreme, saying every conquest map is extreme isn't good. Complex is fair.

King of the Mountains as moderate may not be popular with some of you but it seems to be the popular opinion.

I'm going to do a final list and open it up for general to see how much they disagree with some of these decisions. It's likely things we weren't even debating will be changed. But that's good, because we are an odd bunch.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:25 am

Coleman wrote:Lets not be silly about this. Just looking at BeNeLux you can tell what the routes are and what the impassibles are.

I still disagree on this point though.

The first game I had on that one I didn't realise that some borders weren't borders.

C.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:26 am

yeti_c wrote:
Coleman wrote:Lets not be silly about this. Just looking at BeNeLux you can tell what the routes are and what the impassibles are.
I still disagree on this point though.

The first game I had on that one I didn't realise that some borders weren't borders.

C.

...fine, but I bet they'll make me change it back.

rebelman · Post by **rebelman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:27 am

Coleman wrote:But that's good, because we are an odd bunch.

yeah you guys are

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:29 am

Coleman wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
Coleman wrote:Lets not be silly about this. Just looking at BeNeLux you can tell what the routes are and what the impassibles are.
I still disagree on this point though.

The first game I had on that one I didn't realise that some borders weren't borders.

C.
...fine, but I bet they'll make me change it back.

Then they can read this topic - and discover the reasons why we made that decision - that is if we go with that?!

C.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:31 am

yeti_c wrote:
Coleman wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
Coleman wrote:Lets not be silly about this. Just looking at BeNeLux you can tell what the routes are and what the impassibles are.
I still disagree on this point though.

The first game I had on that one I didn't realise that some borders weren't borders.

C.
...fine, but I bet they'll make me change it back.
Then they can read this topic - and discover the reasons why we made that decision - that is if we go with that?!

C.

The person who convinced me to make something someway is the arguments I'll be using. I'll be defending the list I'm about to post using everything given to me in this topic.

Nothing more though, and I won't be too resistant to changing it if it looks like some sort of consensus disagrees with something.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:34 am

Cool...

I suggest you start the main list with a comment such as "This list is designed for the new comers mainly - with a nod to more experienced players"

C.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:36 am

Coleman wrote: King of the Mountains as moderate may not be popular with some of you but it seems to be the popular opinion.

no way. you're telling me you let the masses influence the results?

for crying out loud just look at what they posted in that thread. everybody tries to prove he's smart and masters the map

its pretty basic

One need to know the alphabet to play it.

one of the simplest maps.

come on. plus your poll was flawed from the start since you asked how do people consider kotm not how people think a new recruit might consider kotm.

so if the poll results show you people think it's moderate then it's clear a new recruit that has no risk experience and is a little slow minded will find it complex. keep in mind the people that voted are biased by 2 things:
1. they have experience and have played the map
2. they feel the need of internet bravado.

the map is clearly complex and putting it in moderate would be a big mistake.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:38 am

Blimey - I wouldn't've put KOTM higher than a lot of the moderate maps!!!

C.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:41 am

Coleman wrote:I'm going to do a final list and open it up for general to see how much they disagree with some of these decisions. It's likely things we weren't even debating will be changed. But that's good, because we are an odd bunch.

again i have to step in and totally disagree with your intention.

putting this list for public debate would be bad. really bad, extremely bad.

you'll be in for a world of arguing. and trust me there will be only 2 categories. 1 extremely simple and extremely complex. nobody will come and read this thread to find our argument nobody will even bother thinking for more than 30 seconds what a new recruit would feel about the maps. they'll just vote and post like it's a contest on who's the smartest kid on the block.

as i said you'll have 2 kinds of posts.

1. those that feel like geniuses and will say everything is as simple as abc
2. those that will rate anything with 1 gimmick straight to freakin weird because they simply don't like non classic style maps.

the only thing you'll achieve with putting this in general is throw to garbage what we've been trying to debate here.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:42 am

He might have a point...

C.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:17 pm

yeti_c wrote:He might have a point...

C.

He might not too... So I put this in the public eye and they don't like it but they are just wrong and should use what we came up with anyway?

KotM doesn't fit with Complex even more then it doesn't with standard, and it sure as heck can't go anywhere else....

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:17 pm

Coleman wrote:
yeti_c wrote:He might have a point...

C.
He might not too... So I put this in the public eye and they don't like it but they are just wrong and should use what we came up with anyway?

but what's the use?
look at the other thread you got 45 votes and only 7 people (other than foundry regulars) bothered to put a post and none of those 7 posts were elaborate to explain pros and cons and stuff like that.

now imagine asking people to sort 71 maps in 4 categs. my bet is ZERO people will bother making such a list let alone explain their decision.
to do such a thing you must either be a good samaritan or be passionate about map making. and we all know there are very few such people.

i say make the final draft based on the decisions in this thread and submit it to lack.

Coleman wrote:KotM doesn't fit with Complex even more then it doesn't with standard, and it sure as heck can't go anywhere else....

meh, what else can i do. i've stated all my reasons and explained them loud and clear. i guess if don't want to take them into consideration and do the right thing is your choice. i can't force you. afterall we'll have 70 properly placed maps and just 1 wrong. it's not so bad.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:20 pm

I've taken them into consideration, bleh fine, no one is arguing for my side anymore either. It isn't a big enough deal to keep delaying this.

Europe is simple though, so take that.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:33 pm

Coleman wrote:I've taken them into consideration, bleh fine, no one is arguing for my side anymore either. It isn't a big enough deal to keep delaying this.

Europe is simple though, so take that.

so does that mean you're putting kotm in complex?

europe can be simple if you have good eyes.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:34 pm

Yeah, I think dark colors is a silly reason for moderate. BeNeLux can be moderate too, I'm in a reasonable mood today. I'll get the list up later.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:38 pm

Coleman wrote:Yeah, I think dark colors is a silly reason for moderate. BeNeLux can be moderate too, I'm in a reasonable mood today. I'll get the list up later.

that's good.
make the list

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:44 pm

Figure I owe you guys this...

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coarl Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate

Alexander's Empire
BeNeLux
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Extreme Global Warming
Feudal Wars
Great Lakes
Italy
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Philippines
San Francisco
Space
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima

3) Complex

American Civil War
Berlin 1961
Crossword
Duck and Cover
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
King of the Mountains
Siege!
Solar System
USApocalypse
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts

4) Extreme

Age of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Bamboo Jack
Battle of Actium
Conquer Man
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
Valley of the Kings

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:51 pm

Oh, WidowMakers provided these:

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:59 am

Loving that.

C.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:24 am

i like the images but where are the ratings and feedbacks?

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:18 am

Feudal in moderate

rebelman · Post by **rebelman** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:23 am

gimil wrote:Feudal in moderate

ignore the image look at coleman's list on the previous page