[Abandoned] - Ancient Japan

Kaplowitz · Post by **Kaplowitz** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:08 pm

Its very hard to read the font for the continents

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:14 pm

Kaplowitz wrote:Its very hard to read the font for the continents

true and on top of that the background is too strong and too artificial. it doesn't represent an old scroll.

also i think you'll have trouble fitting army circles and army numbers.

Unit_2 · Post by **Unit_2** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:38 pm

DiM wrote:
Kaplowitz wrote:Its very hard to read the font for the continents
true and on top of that the background is too strong and too artificial. it doesn't represent an old scroll.

also i think you'll have trouble fitting army circles and army numbers.

we arn't putting army circles in.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:00 pm

Unit_2 wrote:
DiM wrote:
Kaplowitz wrote:Its very hard to read the font for the continents
true and on top of that the background is too strong and too artificial. it doesn't represent an old scroll.

also i think you'll have trouble fitting army circles and army numbers.
we arn't putting army circles in.

then the army numbers will not be visible.

Kaplowitz · Post by **Kaplowitz** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:03 pm

DiM wrote:
Unit_2 wrote:
DiM wrote:
Kaplowitz wrote:Its very hard to read the font for the continents
true and on top of that the background is too strong and too artificial. it doesn't represent an old scroll.

also i think you'll have trouble fitting army circles and army numbers.
we arn't putting army circles in.
then the army numbers will not be visible.

The armies in purple may be a little tough

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:11 pm

Kaplowitz wrote:
DiM wrote:
Unit_2 wrote:
DiM wrote:
Kaplowitz wrote:Its very hard to read the font for the continents
true and on top of that the background is too strong and too artificial. it doesn't represent an old scroll.

also i think you'll have trouble fitting army circles and army numbers.
we arn't putting army circles in.
then the army numbers will not be visible.
The armies in purple may be a little tough

not just the purple all of the coulours will be hard to see. except neutrals.

unit, please put blue numbers in shimane, green in saga, orange in kochi, yellow in gifu, red in edo purple in aomori and teal in abashiri.

also you'll have a huge problem with army numbers overlapping borders names or other army numbers.

t.e.c · Post by **t.e.c** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:38 am

definitely change the contintent font.

oaktown · Post by **oaktown** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:22 pm

hey Unit, you asked my opinion on what this needs in the area of gameplay, and I have to say you should begin by addressing the recent concerns. Readability of the territory titles and army counts is a gameplay concern as well as a graphics concern - if it's hard to tell which territory an army count goes with you have a fundamental problem. For instance, four of your territory names are so tightly spaced they read as one: "Aichi Shizuoka Kan. Edo."

Another serious gameplay issue is that I really can't tell who attacks whom. Is that an attack route under Kagawa title? Is that a three-way border at Toku-Kagawa-Ehime? Can Kan. hit Chiba? Can Osaka hit Kyoto?

Territory naming concern: what is "Yama."? Won't it be confused in the placement and attack menus with Yamagata?

The size of this map has been a concern from the start. It pains me to say that this map may require yet another significant re-think... are you willing to misrepresent the true geographic shape of Japan in order to better fit your territories? Would this work better as a 32 territory map? Does it make sense for shrines to attack each other (this one has puzzled me for weeks)?

Unit_2 · Post by **Unit_2** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:03 pm

Q:

Readability of the territory titles and army counts is a gameplay concern as well as a graphics concern - if it's hard to tell which territory an army count goes with you have a fundamental problem. For instance, four of your territory names are so tightly spaced they read as one: "Aichi Shizuoka Kan. Edo."

A:
Really oaktown... Is it that hard to tell that they are not the same? If you look at it you can tell that, even by close glance.

Also we need suggestions not just problems, we can't just fix something if we don't know what to do with it.

Q:

Another serious gameplay issue is that I really can't tell who attacks whom. Is that an attack route under Kagawa title? Is that a three-way border at Toku-Kagawa-Ehime? Can Kan. hit Chiba? Can Osaka hit Kyoto?

A:
That we are planing to fix when Telvannia makes the large map, right now he is busy so he fixes everything in one day when he has some free time, so that will be fixed.

Q:

Territory naming concern: what is "Yama."? Won't it be confused in the placement and attack menus with Yamagata?

A:
What do you suggest we do to fix that?

Q:

The size of this map has been a concern from the start. It pains me to say that this map may require yet another significant re-think... are you willing to misrepresent the true geographic shape of Japan in order to better fit your territories?

A:
No, we already fixed that already.

Q:

Would this work better as a 32 territory map?

A:I don't think so because it would not be Ancient Japan then, there would be 3 kindoms in 1 and that would not go with what you said above.

Q:

Does it make sense for shrines to attack each other (this one has puzzled me for weeks)?

A:
Yes it does, because if they were not there there would only be 2 territorys to get from the top to the bottom(Shiga and Mie also Niigata and Fukushima).

oaktown · Post by **oaktown** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:05 pm

Unit_2 wrote:we need suggestions not just problems, we can't just fix something if we don't know what to do with it.

Agreed... the trouble is that my suggestion for all of the above mentioned concerns is to make the territories larger somehow. The size of this map has been my concern since page one of this thread, and I suspect that the trouble will become very clear when you drop double digit army counts on the small map. The suggestions I have for this have been made before... fewer territories (can it not still be ancient Japan with 42 or 36 terits?), or twisting reality a bit and literally stretching the island. Also, territories like Akida and Iwate could sacrifice some real estate to make other larger.

I recognize that in many ways this map is superior to previous versions, but the fundamental problem of territory size remains.

Unit_2 wrote:That we are planing to fix when Telvannia makes the large map, right now he is busy so he fixes everything in one day when he has some free time, so that will be fixed.

So, what happens to the small version? It remains unreadable?

I don't want tospend too much time on specific suggestions like little nudges, because to me fixing the little problems don't address the big problem of territory size, but I'll mention two...

"Yama." used to be "Yaman" right? If you can get that one character back in there it would eliminate the confusion, and grammatically Yama. is a lousy abbreviation for Yaman anyway.

The Aichi and Shizuoka titles should be off-set vertically by a few more pixels.

As for the shrines, usually ranged attacks on CC maps occur via air strikes, warp gates in space, or subway lines that reach across a city... here I have no idea why my 16th century armies can teleport across the country. I'm not saying it's bad for gameplay - in fact it might be good for gameplay - I'd just like some background. If there is a cultural/historical reason behind the ranged attacks, it would be good for the overall health of the map if it were incorporated into the map somehow to provide context.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:09 pm

i agree entirely with what oaktown said.

currently the map has a lot of readability issues, because of the font because of the size and basically when you add army numbers you'll be screwed.

also i'm not a big fan of the panther. i know it's your sig but usually sigs are supposed to be something modest in a corner, barely visible. the image is the focal point not the signature.

and btw the shrines are indeed a problem. back when you had subways it was much better.

Unit_2 · Post by **Unit_2** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:22 pm

well... the history behind the Shrines is that they were to worship in Shinto.

There are no regular services in Shinto, which means you observe as you feel you should.

For example, some Shintos only attend large festivals, whereas others pray every day at a home altar.

Followers may pray at a home altar or shrine.

All prayer in Shinto has four main steps:

Purification
This usually involves water or salt.

Offering

Shintos believe that an offering must be made once a day or the kami will become upset.

There are no sacrifices in Shinto, so offerings are coins, a few grains of rice, or sake (a rice wine used a lot in Shinto)
Prayer
Feast

Why i have it as you can attack each other is that each shine is for a differnt god so you can attack from one god to a differnt one.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:32 pm

Unit_2 wrote:well... the history behind the Shrines is that they were to worship in Shinto.

There are no regular services in Shinto, which means you observe as you feel you should.

For example, some Shintos only attend large festivals, whereas others pray every day at a home altar.

Followers may pray at a home altar or shrine.

All prayer in Shinto has four main steps:

Purification
This usually involves water or salt.

Offering

Shintos believe that an offering must be made once a day or the kami will become upset.

There are no sacrifices in Shinto, so offerings are coins, a few grains of rice, or sake (a rice wine used a lot in Shinto)
Prayer
Feast

Why i have it as you can attack each other is that each shine is for a differnt god so you can attack from one god to a differnt one.

but how can you attack from one god to another and why? is this a fantasy realm japan where shrines magically transport troops? nope.

Unit_2 · Post by **Unit_2** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:39 pm

DiM wrote:
Unit_2 wrote:well... the history behind the Shrines is that they were to worship in Shinto.

There are no regular services in Shinto, which means you observe as you feel you should.

For example, some Shintos only attend large festivals, whereas others pray every day at a home altar.

Followers may pray at a home altar or shrine.

All prayer in Shinto has four main steps:

Purification
This usually involves water or salt.

Offering

Shintos believe that an offering must be made once a day or the kami will become upset.

There are no sacrifices in Shinto, so offerings are coins, a few grains of rice, or sake (a rice wine used a lot in Shinto)
Prayer
Feast

Why i have it as you can attack each other is that each shine is for a differnt god so you can attack from one god to a differnt one.
but how can you attack from one god to another and why? is this a fantasy realm japan where shrines magically transport troops? nope.

thats what the Ancients did to pray to the gods..to pray two differnt gods you have to go to two differnt shines.

Kaplowitz · Post by **Kaplowitz** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:50 pm

maybe just "bonus=_ if you hold all shrines".
That makes more sense. Control the religious aspect of Japan, and you get some soldiers.
Hold the the major geographical regions of Japan, and you get some soldiers.

Kill everyone, and you win!

pepperonibread · Post by **pepperonibread** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:33 pm

Unit_2 wrote:
DiM wrote:
Unit_2 wrote:well... the history behind the Shrines is that they were to worship in Shinto.

There are no regular services in Shinto, which means you observe as you feel you should.

For example, some Shintos only attend large festivals, whereas others pray every day at a home altar.

Followers may pray at a home altar or shrine.

All prayer in Shinto has four main steps:

Purification
This usually involves water or salt.

Offering

Shintos believe that an offering must be made once a day or the kami will become upset.

There are no sacrifices in Shinto, so offerings are coins, a few grains of rice, or sake (a rice wine used a lot in Shinto)
Prayer
Feast

Why i have it as you can attack each other is that each shine is for a differnt god so you can attack from one god to a differnt one.
but how can you attack from one god to another and why? is this a fantasy realm japan where shrines magically transport troops? nope.
thats what the Ancients did to pray to the gods..to pray two differnt gods you have to go to two differnt shines.

How does that allow for troop transport? It fit when there were subways, but now it doesn't make much sense. Kap's idea above might work better for this map. Also, I agree w/ Oaktown about the territory size. This map could work well as an Indochina-like map, by combining some territories and one or two continents. Right now, some of the names are hard to see. Granted, they're not too bad, but it'll only get worse with the small map.
One more thing, why is Kansai (brown continent) worth 7? It's only got five territories.

Unit_2 · Post by **Unit_2** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:07 pm

because you can attack every territory....

i will wokr on teh territorys, i'll see what i can do so i can tell telvannia.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:21 pm

Unit_2 wrote:Ok guys, here is the lastest update, i am working on the XML but this is the map.

How many territories are on this map?

Why don't you consider reducing the amount... because a lot of the territories are very small and cramped.

Also - Are you going to have army circles - I suspect that the numbers will disappear quite readily into this map.

C.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:30 pm

Unit_2 wrote:
DiM wrote:
Unit_2 wrote:well... the history behind the Shrines is that they were to worship in Shinto.

There are no regular services in Shinto, which means you observe as you feel you should.

For example, some Shintos only attend large festivals, whereas others pray every day at a home altar.

Followers may pray at a home altar or shrine.

All prayer in Shinto has four main steps:

Purification
This usually involves water or salt.

Offering

Shintos believe that an offering must be made once a day or the kami will become upset.

There are no sacrifices in Shinto, so offerings are coins, a few grains of rice, or sake (a rice wine used a lot in Shinto)
Prayer
Feast

Why i have it as you can attack each other is that each shine is for a differnt god so you can attack from one god to a differnt one.
but how can you attack from one god to another and why? is this a fantasy realm japan where shrines magically transport troops? nope.
thats what the Ancients did to pray to the gods..to pray two differnt gods you have to go to two differnt shines.

ok you pray to different guys but how can you teleport from 1 shrine to the other? it's unrealistic.

Unit_2 · Post by **Unit_2** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:34 pm

DiM wrote:
Unit_2 wrote:
DiM wrote:
Unit_2 wrote:well... the history behind the Shrines is that they were to worship in Shinto.

There are no regular services in Shinto, which means you observe as you feel you should.

For example, some Shintos only attend large festivals, whereas others pray every day at a home altar.

Followers may pray at a home altar or shrine.

All prayer in Shinto has four main steps:

Purification
This usually involves water or salt.

Offering

Shintos believe that an offering must be made once a day or the kami will become upset.

There are no sacrifices in Shinto, so offerings are coins, a few grains of rice, or sake (a rice wine used a lot in Shinto)
Prayer
Feast

Why i have it as you can attack each other is that each shine is for a differnt god so you can attack from one god to a differnt one.
but how can you attack from one god to another and why? is this a fantasy realm japan where shrines magically transport troops? nope.
thats what the Ancients did to pray to the gods..to pray two differnt gods you have to go to two differnt shines.
ok you pray to different guys but how can you teleport from 1 shrine to the other? it's unrealistic.

fine... i'll make it so its worth a bonus...

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:49 pm

Unit - can I ask you...

What exactly are you now doing for this map?

From what I can see -
Telvannia is doing the map...
Lanyards is doing the xml...

Where do you fit in?

C.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:53 pm

yeti_c wrote:Unit - can I ask you...

What exactly are you now doing for this map?

From what I can see -
Telvannia is doing the map...
Lanyards is doing the xml...

Where do you fit in?

C.

he's the mastermind

and btw why doesn't lanyards have his name on the map?

or all the other people that did work on this?

Unit_2 · Post by **Unit_2** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:08 pm

no one else did the work but me and telvannia, i also did the XML but lanyard is fixing it, so i guess if he wants his name on it when he is done fixing it i guess we can.

As for what i do is i plan what to do on it, i made this map...the base of this map....i also started the XML, Telvannia is doing the graphics and lanyard is fixing the XML.

Also is this good?(No...This is just the plan to fix the shrines and fix the territorys not the graphics)

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:31 pm

unit_2 no offense but you have contacted at least 10-15 people to help you on this map in various forms, either by doing the entire graphics or parts of it or for doing the xml. all you do is keep rejecting valid requests people have in this thread.

the tiny terits issue has been brought up many times and you haven't given a fix yet. same goes for the army circles or the names or the background

and as for lanyards "just fixing" the xml for you i think you're underestimating what he's doing. doing all the army coords and correcting all your mistakes is much more than "just fixing".

this map has started in september last year. that's 4 months ago. in 4 months you have time to learn photoshop learn xml and produce 2-3 maps. instead you chose to keep asking other people to do your job. why?

at this rate japan will probably never be quenched because you keep refusing feedback and the updates are very rare. not to mention you change the graphic artists like socks.

i as well as others have told you countless times what you need to do to become a map maker, people have offered their help, tutorials can be found on the web as well as here and i'm sure that any map maker would spend a few minutes showing you this or that and help you move things along. all you need to do is show interest and try as hard as you can to do your best. there's no quick way to get yourself on a map. you must work hard and learn. asking people to do your job is not the solution and trust me you'll get much more satisfaction when you'll make a map and you'll know that's YOUR creation not the result of 10-15 people working.

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:43 pm

From an official stand point,

Oaktown is never going to hand you a gameplay stamp until you take in his logical advice either by

A. Implimenting what he has asked

B. Logically eebuttal the advice given.

I myself wont even take your graphics stamp (the last thing before final forge) into consideration until oaktown is satisfied with gameplay.

Everyone above are foundry vets who have given up more time for you than is needed. Either begin to listen to them or stop wasting there time asking for help.