[Abandoned] - Scandinavia

sfhbballnut · Post by **sfhbballnut** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:30 am

the dark map's got a good look going, i'd like to seee it move along more

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:44 pm

snufkin wrote:something to think about:
only english letters are possible in the xml so some names will have to be changed

Finland is not part of scandinavia.
scandinavia+finland="Norden" aka the "nordic countries" aka "fenno-scandinavia"

Iceland on the other hand often counts as part of scandinavia

so the name of the map is a bit misleading

Not true. We can do ascii encoding to get many unusual characters to show up. It would certainly be easier to go with all English letters though.

Qwert · Post by **Qwert** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:39 pm

Coleman can i get "adv Idea"?

tim02 · Post by **tim02** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:41 pm

The stupidest bonuses ever, you hold 6 places for central sweden and you get 3 men, north sweden 4or5 and you get 2

CoolC · Post by **CoolC** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:17 pm

snufkin wrote: Finland is not part of scandinavia.
scandinavia+finland="Norden" aka the "nordic countries" aka "fenno-scandinavia"

Iceland on the other hand often counts as part of scandinavia
so the name of the map is a bit misleading

Wrong. You can either use the term culturally or geographically.

Culturally you are right in that Finland is not included, but Iceland is generally not included either. Geographically scandinavia consist of Norway, Sweden and northern Finland - Denmark and Iceland not included. I used the name Scandinavia as a middle road to both incorporate the cultural and geographical parts but mostly because it's the most common term around the world. "The nordics" is mostly used by us nordics ourselves

(i'm a swede if anyone wonders)

I did initially thought of including Iceland but decided against it partly because it would fit poorly and I would have to use images from a different photo, partly because there is already an excellent Iceland map being made. However, if there is more demand for Iceland to be included I may make an attempt.

The stupidest bonuses ever, you hold 6 places for central sweden and you get 3 men, north sweden 4or5 and you get 2

Care to eleborate a bit? Besides taking the number of countries into consideration you also need to look at how many you need to defend to hold the area. I am wide open to suggestions concerning changing the bonuses but they have to make more sense then this statement...

Lufsen75 · Post by **Lufsen75** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:50 pm

Good. I tried to make such a map but you did it. If possible can you put in Iceland and faery Islands? Not nessery though

kAlz · Post by **kAlz** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:47 am

Is this map still in progress? If any design/name/tweaking map help is needed ill gladly help, i can code or have drawing in PS skills.

CoolC · Post by **CoolC** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:48 pm

Yes of course it's still in progress. I'm just waiting for feedback or to have it moved to the next forum... I've implemented all possible suggestions this far and it fullfills all criteria mentioned in the sticky posts as far as I can see. I'm unsure what more can be done. Of course there are lots of small visual improvemetns to be done, but that's for a later stage.

kAlz · Post by **kAlz** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:14 pm

Lets hope it gets moved soon

sam_levi_11 · Post by **sam_levi_11** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:15 pm

i think the abandoned one has the rght conts and terits but this one looks better. expand the map to include all of denmark and iceland.

snufkin · Post by **snufkin** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:55 pm

CoolC wrote:
Wrong. You can either use the term culturally or geographically.

Culturally you are right in that Finland is not included, but Iceland is generally not included either. Geographically scandinavia consist of Norway, Sweden and northern Finland - Denmark and Iceland not included. I used the name Scandinavia as a middle road to both incorporate the cultural and geographical parts but mostly because it's the most common term around the world. "The nordics" is mostly used by us nordics ourselves (i'm a swede if anyone wonders)

Never mind, let´s go with what the rest of the world mistakenly call Scandinavia.. and only norway and sweden would be a terrible map anyway.. Just make it, I wanna play!

and you are correct in that a small part of the scandic mountains are in Finland..
(guess I´m 100% scandinavian after all- I´m a swede/norwegian/finn

)

you might want to make the borders more opaque - some people get annoyed if they can´t identify all borders within 2 secs..

Troms, especially the northern part, is considered a main sami/laponia area so I think it should be included in that bonus group.

CoolC · Post by **CoolC** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:41 pm

snufkin wrote: (guess I´m 100% scandinavian after all- I´m a swede/norwegian/finn )

Congrats

snufkin wrote: you might want to make the borders more opaque - some people get annoyed if they can´t identify all borders within 2 secs..

I thought they were pretty clear after my last improvement but I can see now that atleast some is a bit poor. Will improve them further for the next version.

snufkin wrote: Troms, especially the northern part, is considered a main sami/laponia area so I think it should be included in that bonus group.

Hmm, the idea was to have one country from each continent but maybe I can expand a bit...

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:20 pm

After next version I expect to move this out of Map Ideas. Looking forward to it.

Hatchman · Post by **Hatchman** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:30 pm

The map on page 1 is gorgeous! Don't abandon this one.

CoolC · Post by **CoolC** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:39 pm

About revision 4

During the making of next revision I was faced with a tough decision: should I include Iceland or not? I made an attempt but I am not sure if it's good or bad for the map, I like it better (atleast visually) without Iceland but since several ppl have been wishing for it I will start a new poll running for 6 days that will decide the fate of this map. /edit/ No, appearently I cannot change the poll so either we wait for a mod to do it or we just count the vote in the thread.

If Iceland is included I have thought of making just 2 or 3 countries there and either include it as subcontinent of Denmark or give it +1 in bonus. Another option could be to not have a bonus for Iceland alone but have it as an additional bonus if you already have another subcontinent. We could have it either (as currently) all countries on Iceland attackable from a single country in norway, or make whole iceland attackable by everyone else? Could be interesting...

Besides the case of Iceland or not, these are the changes made:

- army shadows are more translucent
- borders are more opaque
- a few names are slightly moved for better visability
- sea routes are remade to be better looking
- sea route between norway and denmark changed, to give norway another country to defend
- bonuses are changed to more closly follow the recommendations in the spreadsheets.

Regarding the bonuses i want to explain further: the spreadsheets have no concept of sub-continents so I have used all subcontinents as sovereign ones, then added a few extra armiies (besides the sum of the parts) to those "whole continents" that deserves it. Finland have no extra bonus since it already has a "bonus" in the fact there is only 2 countries to defend once you have the whole continent. I realise it may seem excessive to give sweden 20 but consider how insanely difficult it's going to be to get the whole continent. It''s very hard to get asia in classic, now this is several orders of magnitude harder, i think you deserve a big bonus if you manage to pull that off

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:26 pm

Sorry, when you want a poll removed send me or someone else in cartos a pm.

Is this map worth finishing?

Yes! Make both summer and winter! 16% [ 4 ]
Yes! But just make the summer one 33% [ 8 ]
Yes, but scrap the work and do the winter version instead 8% [ 2 ]
Maybe, with lot more work... 33% [ 8 ]
No, this sucks. 8% [ 2 ]

Total Votes : 24

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:28 pm

CoolC wrote:Regarding the bonuses i want to explain further: the spreadsheets have no concept of sub-continents so I have used all subcontinents as sovereign ones, then added a few extra armiies (besides the sum of the parts) to those "whole continents" that deserves it. Finland have no extra bonus since it already has a "bonus" in the fact there is only 2 countries to defend once you have the whole continent. I realise it may seem excessive to give sweden 20 but consider how insanely difficult it's going to be to get the whole continent. It''s very hard to get asia in classic, now this is several orders of magnitude harder, i think you deserve a big bonus if you manage to pull that off

In the xml a continent is formed with either territories or continents inside it.

So for the whole continent you could form it with all the sub continents and then override them setting the game log to read as something like "received x for holding all of Finland".

If that makes sense.

CoolC · Post by **CoolC** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:59 am

Thanks Coleman. I have created a new poll now running for 7 days,

Regarding the XML I think i know what you mean but I haven't started with the actual XML yet, I just ment the calculation for number of armies in bonus,

jakejake · Post by **jakejake** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:07 am

sorry for being such a thick idiot, but when people talk about making a winter/summer version of a map, what do they mean? is it just the way it looks or gameplay or something else?

sam_levi_11 · Post by **sam_levi_11** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:01 pm

i say make 1 terit of iceland accesable from 1 place in norway, 1 from 1 place in sweeden and 1 place in finland and 1 in denmark. so that each country attacks one part of iceland.

also the bottom looks scruffy, can u include all of denmark not just parts

Post by **iancanton** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:00 pm

i like the green colours, which suggest fir trees, and the mountain texture.

CoolC wrote:the areas selected for sweden are the historic "landskap" because that's what most swedes associate themselves with, rather then the new areas called "län".

might finns, as well as swedes, feel the same way? can u also use the historic läänit for finland?

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... f_1960.asp

CoolC wrote:Currently we have 4 main "continents" which is the Scandinavian countries:

- Sweden, with 3 subcontinents of 10, 8 and 7 countries (25 total)
- Finland, with 2 subcontinents of 9 and 6 countries (15 total)
- Norway, with 2 subcontinents of 11 and 5 countries (16 total)
- Denmark, with 2 subcontinents of 4 and 3 countries (7 total)
- Total: 63 countries

having the traditional läänit for finland means that the territory count for finland is 12, not 15. this makes a clear difference in development between finland and norway and maybe more of a choice in gameplay. u can perhaps say it's justified because norway has oil and viking history, while finland has only mobile phones and some good racing drivers!

by tradition, there is a clear "pecking order" of importance: sweden first, denmark second, norway third and finland fourth. we can't do much about denmark because it's so small, but having a 12-territory finland seems to fit better with this.

do u think it would work if finland has only 11 territories, excluding aaland (because finland does not have complete sovereignty over swedish-speaking aaland)? we can then make aaland a special territory that is not part of a continent, but gives a +1 bonus to the holder of the nearest finnish and swedish subcontinents. this can be our version of the aaland dispute after the end of the first world war.

http://home.aland.net/m05343/aland.html

CoolC wrote:If Iceland is included I have thought of making just 2 or 3 countries there and either include it as subcontinent of Denmark or give it +1 in bonus. Another option could be to not have a bonus for Iceland alone but have it as an additional bonus if you already have another subcontinent. We could have it either (as currently) all countries on Iceland attackable from a single country in norway, or make whole iceland attackable by everyone else? Could be interesting...

i think, if we include iceland, then let it be only one territory (not 2 or 3), not part of a continent; connect it only to denmark (and possibly a suitable norwegian port). i like ur idea of a +1 bonus for holding both denmark and iceland because iceland used to be danish territory. however, some people feel that iceland does not belong on the map and the photo image is different, so no iceland is also good.

ian.

snufkin · Post by **snufkin** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:36 pm

iancanton wrote:
i think, if we include iceland, then let it be only one territory (not 2 or 3), not part of a continent; connect it only to denmark (and possibly a suitable norwegian port). i like ur idea of a +1 bonus for holding both denmark and iceland because iceland used to be danish territory. however, some people feel that iceland does not belong on the map and the photo image is different, so no iceland is also good.

ian.

norway also used to be danish territory, hell england used to be danish territory as well.. Iceland is traditionally of norwegian origin (they wanted to escape the norwegian king).. I think it would be really odd to not have iceland connected to norway..

Ogrecrusher · Post by **Ogrecrusher** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:12 pm

I personally think the poll is a little loaded. It seems to me that you don't want to put Iceland on, so the image you've made with Iceland on look worse.
I think Iceland is essential for this map, but not in the way you've done it. Compared with the Artwork standard on the rest of the map, the Iceland bit looks like a cut and paste job...

CoolC · Post by **CoolC** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:10 am

Ogrecrusher wrote:I personally think the poll is a little loaded. It seems to me that you don't want to put Iceland on, so the image you've made with Iceland on look worse.
I think Iceland is essential for this map, but not in the way you've done it. Compared with the Artwork standard on the rest of the map, the Iceland bit looks like a cut and paste job...

You are correct, the poll is a bit loaded because I wanted to make my own opinion about it known, which is not to include iceland. I did not however make it intentionally worse looking, it's indeed just a sloppy copy-paste but it was made as a quick example of how it may look, where it may be placed and such. It it -not- intended as a final version, it just happened to be worse looking because it was not included from start and worked on as much. IF it does get included I will work on it more to make it atleast as close to the same standard as the rest.

The poll by the way did not help me a lot... I thought I would get a pretty clear result but it's as even as before! Gah! I probably end up having the dices decide if it should be included or not... that would be fitting

I will not have time to work on the map in the coming days but I try to get a new version (with or without iceland) out within a week.

Lufsen75 · Post by **Lufsen75** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:08 pm

I forgot to vote in this election and with my vote it have being even. But I believe Iceland should be in with 2-3 countries connected to olso (akershus) - Reykawijk and east Iceland to some northern part of Norway.