Does America need a revolution?

thejackofhearts · Post by **thejackofhearts** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:43 pm

Feel free to voice your opinions on the matter, but be respectful.

Please no foul language

Debate is welcome but be civilized.

And remember that a revolution does not require bloodshed. It can be done diplomatically and peacefully.

only post if you have a valid point. "I don't like America" does not constitute a valid point.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:33 pm

A revolution? Well, I don't know if that is necessary just yet. However, it does need a bit of a history lesson on what this country is supposed to be like.

Cheesemore · Post by **Cheesemore** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:10 pm

We don't need a revolution, we just have to put up with a C average president for 2 more years

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:17 pm

A two party political system, heavily influenced by big business, and voter apathy at an all time high?

A revolution wouldn't be too bad I suppose.

happysadfun · Post by **happysadfun** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:29 pm

But you live in Europe. The European media is poisoning you. And a revolution would not really decrease voter apathy too much.

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:33 pm

happysadfun wrote:But you live in Europe. The European media is poisoning you. And a revolution would not really decrease voter apathy too much.

But you live in America. The American media is poisoning you.

Everything he said was accurate.

Knight of Orient · Post by **Knight of Orient** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:47 pm

revolution aint gonna settle things, sorry to tell you. it will take something more serious im afraid

happysadfun · Post by **happysadfun** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:48 pm

Knight of Orient wrote:revolution aint gonna settle things, sorry to tell you. it will take something more serious im afraid

Exactly. We are on a sad road comparable to both Ancient Greece or the Civil War.

Knight of Orient · Post by **Knight of Orient** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:52 pm

and thats being generous

thejackofhearts · Post by **thejackofhearts** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:55 pm

I understand where you're coming from with the comparison to ancient greece, and the civil war. But I think that whatever happens will be something the likes of which humanity has never witnessed outside of cheesy apocalypse movies.

P Gizzle · Post by **P Gizzle** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:57 pm

look, this country is going to be fine. nothing's wrong. can you guys tell me one country that is perfect? mmmm............go ahead, keep thinking.

well, now that you're done, let me tell you that England has had it's fair share of problems, but they're around. they've had bad leaders too. and so has france, and italy, and germany, and every other country in the WORLD!!

deal with it. life is too short to waste it on politics!

richporter · Post by **richporter** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:08 pm

The problem is the United States on the world stage is still in its infancy. There are nations in this world that have survived thousands of years and have not dealt with the problems that Americans face today. We also have allowed Big Business to successfully corrupt our politicians and drive a wedge between the rich and the poor that will ultimately eliminate the middle class. The middle class is what built this country mind you.

Do we need a revolution? No. Revolting against a "tyrannical" government isn't going to help us any at this point in time. President Bush is NOT the cause of all of America's problems, regardless of opinion, and revolting against him when he's going to be gone in two years would accomplish nothing. What do we as Americans need to do? Instead of being blinded by smear campaigns on our televisions and following whichever candidate has enough money to get his/her name out there, we need to make our votes count by making INFORMED decisions.

That's my two cents.

happysadfun · Post by **happysadfun** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:12 pm

richporter wrote:The problem is the United States on the world stage is still in its infancy. There are nations in this world that have survived thousands of years and have not dealt with the problems that Americans face today. We also have allowed Big Business to successfully corrupt our politicians and drive a wedge between the rich and the poor that will ultimately eliminate the middle class. The middle class is what built this country mind you.

Do we need a revolution? No. Revolting against a "tyrannical" government isn't going to help us any at this point in time. President Bush is NOT the cause of all of America's problems, regardless of opinion, and revolting against him when he's going to be gone in two years would accomplish nothing. What do we as Americans need to do? Instead of being blinded by smear campaigns on our televisions and following whichever candidate has enough money to get his/her name out there, we need to make our votes count by making INFORMED decisions.

That's my two cents.

I second that.

P Gizzle · Post by **P Gizzle** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:21 pm

richporter wrote:The problem is the United States on the world stage is still in its infancy. There are nations in this world that have survived thousands of years and have not dealt with the problems that Americans face today. We also have allowed Big Business to successfully corrupt our politicians and drive a wedge between the rich and the poor that will ultimately eliminate the middle class. The middle class is what built this country mind you.

Do we need a revolution? No. Revolting against a "tyrannical" government isn't going to help us any at this point in time. President Bush is NOT the cause of all of America's problems, regardless of opinion, and revolting against him when he's going to be gone in two years would accomplish nothing. What do we as Americans need to do? Instead of being blinded by smear campaigns on our televisions and following whichever candidate has enough money to get his/her name out there, we need to make our votes count by making INFORMED decisions.

That's my two cents.

ive been saying that forever. people forget that 230years isnt that old.

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:23 pm

If every country is bad, maybe we need a worldwide revolution then P Gizzle? To me it's not about the leader anyway, it's about the whole political system.

A revolution probably won't solve voter apathy, then again a revolution can never really start with apathetic people. People don't really feel they can make any difference any more. And to a large extent they can't, at least not within the existing method of government. Essentially they have a choice between one of two parties to run the government, as if there are only two possible sets of ideologies people can aspire to. And worse, unless you're in a "swing state" your vote really doesn't matter anyway. (Yes I know there's more to American government it's a damn important part of it, and though I'm ignorant on much of the rest of American politics, I'd say my evaluation mostly holds there too).

If I were directing a revolution I'd make sure it decentralised government as much as possible, if not dismantling a centralised government altogether. Then people might actually feel like they have some say in the running of their lives again. There are problems with such an approach, such as coordinating for medical research, science, coordinated production etc, but the basis of society should remain decentralised imo. Centralisation of power generally leads to bad things.

Anyway I don't think a revolution will happen anytime soon, it's not even plausible to think of it occuring, unless there's a major ecological disaster (with implications for humanity), a sudden dissappearance of oil, or a major war.

It seems damn near impossible for any kind of radical ideology needed to spur a revolution to ever take hold in a world where everything is commercialised, and usually dumbed down in the process. Would be revolutionaries can be seen buying SOAD cds and anarchist symbol keyrings, while Che Geuvara is used to sell T-shirts. Maybe I'm wrong to view them as would be revolutionaries. Anyway unless it's something that can be sold (including selling papers) it's unlikely that it will become widely known, and more often the symbol of it becomes sold and become devoid of the meaning that once underlied it.

If you truly wanted a proper revolution, with a beneficial outcome you'd need to break outside capatilism, and the usual means of communication (ie. the mainstream media). Of course this must be coupled with people actually willing to think complexly about these ideas. Maybe if the people change the media will then mould to their new wants, but even still the media have an ulterior motive (ie. profit) and would generally tend to drive the debate towards sensationalism in order to sell. Unless you have some complex insightful thought going on, you'll get something with some silly slogans, some noble sounding ideals, and probably a dictatorship in the end, backed by the same few companies that exert a large power in the world already.

As regards me being poisened by the European media, I didn't exactly make any controversial statements in my last post. They all seemed to me to be fairly close to statements of fact. And anyway if I did make outrageous statements, why don't you explain to me why these claims are wrong, instead of just dismissing them as being views generated by someone poisened by the European media. Unfortunately I don't think you'll have read this far to read my rebuttal.

I don't pay that much attention to the media anyway, a lot of things slip by me.

Much of this was written from the viewpoint that in a new revolutionary world, capatilism would be upheld, but society at large would be run along more moral grounds. Were I to be honest I think capatalism should be overthrown, BUT, that's a debate I don't want to get into atm.

EDIT: Hmm, three posts been made since I started writing this, lol. At least we all seem to agree that informed decisions need to be made, and are not being made.

P Gizzle · Post by **P Gizzle** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:29 pm

qeee1 wrote:If every country is bad, maybe we need a worldwide revolution then P Gizzle? To me it's not about the leader anyway, it's about the whole political system.

NO! im saying that whether you will believe or not, in your history, you've had rough times, and you've gotten over to become a great country.

where are you from? i can prove my theory if you tell me where you're from

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:35 pm

NO! im saying that whether you will believe or not, in your history, you've had rough times, and you've gotten over to become a great country.

Eh, I'm from Ireland. We had revolutions to get free of British rule, I guess you could say we're a great country now...

... at a stretch.

P Gizzle · Post by **P Gizzle** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:37 pm

well, you're getting there. just need to get the catholics and protestants to stop fighting.

they aren't acting very christian, eh?

other than that, you've got a great country. people in the US are VERY proud to have heritage there

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:40 pm

I think you missed my point: We HAD revolutions.

P Gizzle · Post by **P Gizzle** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:56 pm

yeah, so have we, but you're missing my point, my point is that not EVERYTHING that people complain about needs bloodshed.

richporter · Post by **richporter** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:52 pm

One hell of a statement there qeee1.

I can try to explain why Americans favor a two-party system over a more socialized system like we see in Canada or the United Kingdom, but alas it falls to plain American ignorance. Americans are just not fond of socialism and the multi-party systems of government. Plus, this can be dated back to the early Americans strong desire to separate themselves from their cousins across the pond as much as humanly possible. Speak the same language? Okay, spell it differently. Yanno?

Anyone buying a t-shirt with Che on it is literally pissing on everything that Che stood for. They are not would-be revolutionaries. They are people who think the t-shirt looks nice. I am in no way communist or radical left, I'm actually a moderate Democrat, but I've spent my time in my various schoolings to educate myself about these ideologies and figures.

Another problem: the average American knows jack about their government and their rights as an American citizen. You, an Irishman, can make a more informed decision about American government than your average American. Recently Americans were polled as to what their First Amendment right was. The popular answer? The right to own a pet. For those that are not familiar with the U.S. Constitution and the First Amendment, it is freedom of speech, press, religion and peaceful protest.

P Gizzle · Post by **P Gizzle** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:58 pm

soooo, according to ur argument, im an american, im stupid, right? and im a totally and utter fool and im ignorant, right?

Sammy gags · Post by **Sammy gags** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:31 pm

i dont understand how wed need a revolution...wut would we be trying 2 get?

ttocs · Post by **ttocs** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:49 pm

qeee1 wrote:I think you missed my point: We HAD revolutions.

I think Ireland had revolutions because Ireland was taken by force, from Britain, and even though Britain had some peices of democracy and that type of politics, it still would not let Ireland have independance no matter what type of peaceful protest you have had there. In america, beliefs now are more somewhat "free for all", and even if the government rised against us, most soldiers and police would not kill peaceful protesters. So I think it is a different situation here compared to the Irish revolutions.

And I think Americans should have a peaceful protest revoulution, because the present day government is letting a few things out of control, and letting the "power of the people" turn into "the power of the government", which is the foundation that set up our government.

P Gizzle · Post by **P Gizzle** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:09 pm

just wait two more years, and we'll have a crybaby president.......as usual.