[Official] Classic TOUCH-UP [Quenched]

[kha1i1]

[quote="gimil"]Im sorry for all your pains, but this thread was here long enought to comment on. The fact that your coming afterwards is your own fault.

However I agree on the circles. I think the problem is we tested them with 88 cordinated which have the most coverage covering most of the white. I think we should of tested the white with 1 coordinate digits with the least coverage.[/quote]


posts like these are the reason ppl are the most angry. am i now supposed to assume middle earth will change soon and check the foundry every day to give input on it? does that make sense to you??? IM NOT INTERESTED IN THE NEW MAPS SO I DONT COME HERE. ill try some out if they look cool, but most of the new ones kinda suck (like that waterloo one for instance). this isnt a new map tho, its the original. and you're standing there trying to say ppl should be monitoring a sub forum for MAJOR GAME CHANGES.

asinine.

not only that, but then you go on to ramble some nonsense which i can only assume relates to actual map making, which is what most people think the foundry is for and therefore avoid it.
edit: reading backwards, i found the picture that this relates to. HOWEVER, i also did find the post that andy makes with the changes. nowhere in there does it mentions the nasty circles. also, i saw "barring any lack vetoes". Lack, buddy, im sure you don't like to veto your own map making community, but if there ever was a time...

the correct way to handle this would have been to post it on the my games page PRIOR to releasing it, like most MAJOR GAME CHANGES are handled. not after the fact. although, judging by the huge reaction and despite your crappy attitude towards the people you're supposedly doing service to, i'd imagine this change (namely the nasty circles) will be shortlived.

[Incandenza]

Gimil said:
Im sorry for all your pains, but this thread was here long enought to comment on. The fact that your coming afterwards is your own fault.

My rebuttal:
I feel that that this line of reasoning is grotesquely inappropriate and a blatant cop-out, especially since you of all people know perfectly well that, compared to the overall membership of the site, a vanishingly small number come in here on even an irregular basis.

And even for those of us that do, the classic thread had some real problems:
1. it was pretty damn boring
2. the artist decided to remain anonymous (I understand why, but there's no denying that it hampered the process)
3. many decisions were decided by fiat, whether by lack or the artist
4. I (and some others, unless I miss my guess) had our fill of let's-fix-an-existing-map threads with the British Isles revamp, which favored the opinions of a vocal minority over pretty basic aesthetic concerns

That last one bears emphasizing, as the exact same thing has happened here. As I understand it, people have PMed various highers-up or posted in various forums, complaining about various aspects of classic. But no one's going to write a PM or post saying, apropos of nothing, "wow, classic is great, don't ever change"? Squeaky wheel gets the grease, as happens in life. I wonder, tho, is there a ballpark figure for how many people went on record, either publicly or privately, and expressed a desire to see classic change? A hundred? Two hundred? A thousand? I'm curious.

If nothing else, it's amusing how many long rants, including this one, this touch-up has evoked.

[Ditocoaf]

[quote="Incandenza"]My rebuttal:
I feel that that this line of reasoning is grotesquely inappropriate and a blatant cop-out, especially since you of all people know perfectly well that, compared to the overall membership of the site, a vanishingly small number come in here on even an irregular basis.[/quote]
heh. now that we've all made this point several times in this thread, hopefully it'll get a response soon.

[wicked]

You've painted a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

Mona Lisa is a Stache!! Stache FTW!!

But seriously, I've pointed out in a few threads that the current process for revamping existing maps seems flawed IMO, just for the reasons stated here and elsewhere today. Hopefully a better process of informing more people of these changes and getting much needed input BEFORE the revamped map goes into play can come out of this, if nothing else.

For example, Brit Isles map has been around since April 2006. There might be some disgruntled people out there when it gets revamped too, as I bet the majority of people on this site have NO CLUE it's going through a revamp as well.

[Incandenza]

I wrote:
I feel that that this line of reasoning is grotesquely inappropriate and a blatant cop-out, especially since you of all people know perfectly well that, compared to the overall membership of the site, a vanishingly small number come in here on even an irregular basis.

Ditocoaf wrote:
heh. now that we've all made this point several times in this thread, hopefully it'll get a response soon.

I respond:
Sometimes it takes a bunch of people saying exactly the same thing to get some attention.

wicked admirably wrote:
Mona Lisa is a Stache!! Stache FTW!!

I respond:
Damn fucking skippy.

[Ruben Cassar]

[quote="gimil"]Im sorry for all your pains, but this thread was here long enought to comment on. The fact that your coming afterwards is your own fault.

However I agree on the circles. I think the problem is we tested them with 88 cordinated which have the most coverage covering most of the white. I think we should of tested the white with 1 coordinate digits with the least coverage.[/quote]

Gimil you know how much I respect the foundry and the work done by the map makers. I am a map maker myself although lately other personal issues have stopped me from being as active in this forum as I would like to be.

However the overwhelming number of complaints shows that the update is very unpopular. I know hard work has been put into making these changes but the end result is that people are not happy and prefer the old version.

Personally I really cannot understand how anyone can say that the map is easier to read now. The old version, while not as refined as the new one was much more legible. The old version was playable, this one is not. I simply cannot play the new version. Maybe the changes are affecting me more negatively because I am colour blind.

Classic is the most important map on CC. We cannot just say that since people did not comment during the foundry process they must now accept the changes. I think an overwhelming majority has spoken. They want the old Classic map back. This forum has always been democratic, the will of the majority must be heeded.

Why not put two versions of the map? Old Classic and New Classic? This way people can choose. Although seriously as I said before, there was no need to update the Classic map. Don't mess with a winning formula.

This was the response I got when I insisted that the Europe map was geographically incorrect and needed to be revamped. For Europe a new map was being designed to play along the old Europe. I don't know why such a path was not taken with Classic as well.

Please listen to the majority of the people on CC and bring old Classic back. If it's not brought back it will only adversely affect CC, and we know that such a great site deserves better.

[Dancing Mustard]

Forgive me for making light of the situation, but isn't this a bit of a storm in a teacup? Surely it's a fairly simple job to satisfy both camps without having to go to too much effort?

[b]Isn't there some way that the powers-that-be could be persuaded to either:[/b]
1. Host two versions of Classic, one that is, well... 'Classic'; and another that is shiny and new and looks as pretty as our photoshop fetishists can make it? Sure, it'd create two 'streams' of classic games as things stand, but surely the CC Software could gain an option that would allow you to search for 'old Classic', 'new Classic', and 'all Classic' games available (depending on how picky you were feeling).

2. Alternatively, and a bit more radically, isn't there some way that an option could be added to classic games to [b]allow users to toggle to their prefered settings[/b]? That way you could start a 'Classic' game, and immediately flick to whichever graphical setting you found least offensive. We can flick between big and small maps, so surely it must be possible to let 'Classic' players flick between ugly and pretty maps? After all, this is just an aesthetic change, so there's no gameplay-compatibility problems with letting each player choose their own 'Classic Skin', right?

I know that both options would create work for some of the higher-ups around here, but if this is going to be such a sensitive topic, then perhaps a little bit of hard work is in order to reach a sensible conclusion.

Anyway, that's my two pence; perhaps I've missed something vital that's been changed here, or perhaps I'm dreaming beyond the capabilities of the CC Software... but surely this can all be worked out fairly easily and without too much mudslinging?

[firstholliday]

Do the guys who made these changes play risk? And if they do, anyone in the top 20?


jeeezzzz

[Qwert]

Now these look like spaming of Map foundry.

[clapper011]

and the opinion of most was against this gmil! not for it! *rolls eyes*

[joecoolfrog]

The whole damn forum should be spammed until somebody sees sense and changes classic back !

[bryguy]

The whole damn forum should be spammed until somebody sees sense and changes classic back !

actually alot of people were begging for classic to be revamped, you guys COULD have gotten your opinion in but you were to busy doing other things (probably spamming up the forums )

[bryguy]

Do the guys who made these changes play risk? And if they do, anyone in the top 20?


jeeezzzz

it was done by an anonymous person, and yes everyone here plays risk and most of them who have at least 1 map quenched have close to or more than 2000 points

[joecoolfrog]

The whole damn forum should be spammed until somebody sees sense and changes classic back !

actually alot of people were begging for classic to be revamped, you guys COULD have gotten your opinion in but you were to busy doing other things (probably spamming up the forums )

Dont be an idiot !
I very much doubt that the amount of people begging ( LOL ) for changes compares with the amount of members flooding the forum with complaints at the moment. Only a small amount of players visit the forums, a tiny percentage visit the foundry and consequently very few people knew about the changes. What sort of logic is it to flag up the changes AFTER they have been made rather than before - this is not an ordinary map it is the classic one.

[Qwert]

it was done by an anonymous person, and yes everyone here plays risk and most of them who have at least 1 map quenched have close to or more than 2000 points

Yes ,like Bryguy say,hes make by anonymous person,and now you want to blame all map makers for some changes who you dont like,please move these from here to some other place.

[jiminski]

The whole damn forum should be spammed until somebody sees sense and changes classic back !

actually alot of people were begging for classic to be revamped, you guys COULD have gotten your opinion in but you were to busy doing other things (probably spamming up the forums )

a lot of people! .. I would honestly love to know how many people outside of the 'Cart sub-community' were involved in this decision making process... Most people leave the important businesses of 'Map - making' to you guys; who we trust to be a little hit and miss but generally you are the vital engine room of the site!

we gladly, gratefully take the rough with the smooth, with your new creations, as we are left with the choice to play them or not! I assure you this is the best method for your creative workings, as greater input from we Luddites would not assist your creative freedom.

the change to the Classic on the other hand is not map making, it is map defacement and initiated on the back of 3 peoples oppinion, a sextant and a box of lurid crayons.

Please please take this back. I am sorry that the only time you get our input is on the infrequent occasion of our bitching ... but that is testament to how bloody good you are here!

It is also testament to the fact that we only get upset when you tinker with our crown jewels.

To say we had the opportunity to make comment just misses the point, i feel it comes from your isolation and perhaps your feeling that you give more than any other members to the site, yet receive insufficient appreciation.

I perceive you to feel that we take you for granted, so you are now unwilling to listen to us! or more sensibly actively canvass our opinion prior to the Quench!
To be honest i sense that you did that on purpose as you beleive; if they do not even bother to come to the Foundry they do not deserve an opinion!
It is certainly how it seems from your remarks so far! and the why is the map-makers anonymity speaks volumes about the consensus which you profess to have gained for the changes!

"Son, we live in a world that has maps, and those maps are made by men with AppleMacs. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Major Jiminskii? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the Classic map and you curse the cartographers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Classics death, while tragic, probably saved other maps. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves maps. You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me to make that map, you need me to make that map. We use words like pixel, code, User Script. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent making something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rolls and cogitates under the blanket of the very graphic that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a mouse and cut and paste. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

you have a point but i say again, we do not visit and we do take you for granted as your work is so fantastic.

Please don't let this episode sully the relationship between you and your wider community. Please at least give us the option to use the old map .. and turn the existing Classic back to the original, it is what we chose to play on after all!

[t-o-m]

go sign the petition if youre that bothered - he link is on my sig.

enjoy

[Qwert]

To say we had the opportunity to make comment just misses the point, i feel it comes from your isolation and perhaps your feeling that you give more than any other members to the site, yet receive insufficient appreciation.

What isolation,every one can come here,and give hes sugestion or opinion,i self dont participiate in Classic rewamp,but i must say that if you dont participiate,then you can blame your self,not map makers.

[jiminski]

To say we had the opportunity to make comment just misses the point, i feel it comes from your isolation and perhaps your feeling that you give more than any other members to the site, yet receive insufficient appreciation.

What isolation,every one can come here,and give hes sugestion or opinion,i self dont participiate in Classic rewamp,but i must say that if you dont participiate,then you can blame your self,not map makers.

yeap hehe... did you read all of my post? .. you have given me one more piece of evidence to show that you all feel above the rest of the community. If we do not come here, we have no right to an oppinion on the shaping of our environment?

Sheese this is a change to a map, it is different to making a new map .. you people here should have actively sought our opinions! the Foundry has contrived a mandate to do whatever they want via the back door!


don't let arrogance prevail please!

[jiminski]

I can see you agree with my post them Gimil.

[gimil]

I can see you agree with my post them Gimil.

I do not believe I agreed or disagreed

[jiminski]

hehe but now others will never be able to judge the nuance of your post as you deleted it ;)

[gimil]

hehe but now others will never be able to judge the nuance of your post as you deleted it

I recall deleting no post that says I agree with you

[The1exile]

[quote="gimil"][quote="jiminski"]hehe but now others will never be able to judge the nuance of your post as you deleted it ;)[/quote]

I recall deleting no post that says I agree with you :)[/quote]
hence, "nuance"

[The1exile]

[quote="qwert"]What isolation,[/quote]
it's similar to hiding in plain sight.
[quote="qwert"]every one can come here,and give hes sugestion or opinion,i self dont participiate in Classic rewamp,but i must say that if you dont participiate,then you can blame your self,not map makers. [-X[/quote]
that everyone *can* come here doesn't mean everyone *does* - relatively few people visit the forums at all, even less the map forum in particular. While the cartographers have generally done a great job - most of my favourite maps have been made from scratch since I started playing - changing Classic, and stating that only the people who have the presence of mind to visit the forums, check this particular forum, and hunt for this particular thread deserve not to be heard is akin to threatening a blind man with a gun and saying when you shoot him that he should have seen you were preparing to shoot.