Europa [Quenched]

[AndyDufresne]

Use your best judgement about Kosovo. As a cartographer, you have some wiggle room. These maps are going to be played on and enjoyed, not used for World Relations.

Perhaps look at it from another perspective, outside the political realm...and in the CC realm. If adding Kosovo detracts from game play in some way, consider not including it.


--Andy

[alster]

I have to admit - I have not read through the 23 pages of posts. So please feel free to curse at me if I state something that already has been said...

My two cents:

What about additional - in particular German - rivers to seal of more parts of the map. Now the centre is a hornets nest.

Also - Turkey is not part of Europe. It should go!

[MrBenn]

Use your best judgement about Kosovo. As a cartographer, you have some wiggle room. These maps are going to be played on and enjoyed, not used for World Relations.

Perhaps look at it from another perspective, outside the political realm...and in the CC realm. If adding Kosovo detracts from game play in some way, consider not including it.


--Andy

Thanks Andy.

[MrBenn]

I have to admit - I have not read through the 23 pages of posts. So please feel free to curse at me if I state something that already has been said...

My two cents:

What about additional - in particular German - rivers to seal of more parts of the map. Now the centre is a hornets nest.

Also - Turkey is not part of Europe. It should go!

Thanks alstergren.

There has been lots of discussion about Turkey, as a small part of the Balkan Peninsular is Turkish. In the end, it made more sense to keep the whole of Turkey on the map, as nothing else looked quite right. Turkey and Russia are two countries that are partially in Europe, but mostly in Asia... Originally I labelled that region 'Asian Borders', but modified it to 'Transcontinental' which I think sounds better, and is slightly more accurate!

As far as adding more impassables goes, I will have another look at it once the region divisions have been finalised, but at the moment I think it's unlikely I'll add more.

[Ruben Cassar]

I have to admit - I have not read through the 23 pages of posts. So please feel free to curse at me if I state something that already has been said...

My two cents:

What about additional - in particular German - rivers to seal of more parts of the map. Now the centre is a hornets nest.

Also - Turkey is not part of Europe. It should go!

Thanks alstergren.

There has been lots of discussion about Turkey, as a small part of the Balkan Peninsular is Turkish. In the end, it made more sense to keep the whole of Turkey on the map, as nothing else looked quite right. Turkey and Russia are two countries that are partially in Europe, but mostly in Asia... Originally I labelled that region 'Asian Borders', but modified it to 'Transcontinental' which I think sounds better, and is slightly more accurate!

As far as adding more impassables goes, I will have another look at it once the region divisions have been finalised, but at the moment I think it's unlikely I'll add more.

Yes, but I will always disagree with this decision. Russia has always been part of Europe culturally and historically. It is East European and 3/4 of its population lives in Europe. Russia expanded in the Empire days in Asia but it is essentially European.

Turkey is a different story. Its roots are Asian not European. The small land that it has in Europe was won by a war against the now defunct Byzantine Empire. However around 95% of the country is in Asia as is most of the population which culturally and historically are not European.

Therefore Russia = part of Eastern Europe, Turkey = Asia.

Anyway the whole continent groupings need much debating as I feel they are the make or break of this map. I also cannot see how the Balkans area will be playable with all those tiny states grouped in such a small area.

[oaktown]

I've been watching the Kosovo debate from afar, waiting until I had something intelligent to say... I still don't have anything intelligent to say, but I'll say it anyway.

The concern seems to over whether or not to include Kosovo, since it is not universally recognized as an independent state. One way to free yourself from such confines is by making this a map of contemporary regions rather than states, allowing you to add Kosovo wthout having to be specific about why. I mean, you've already included other "regions" that aren't independent states, such as Crete and Sicily, and some quasi-autonomous regions like the Faroes. This would also allow you to carve up some of the larger countries - Spain, France, Germany - into regions, thus adding more territories and complexity to the map. But this would also open you up to a whole new series of debates around which regions you should add and why, so as i said above perhaps I'm not adding anything intelligent to this conversation.

Or you could simply say that this map was begun before Kosovo's provisional government declared independence and wash your hands of the entire thing.

In other news - I'm concerned about how many army count numbers are going to be right on top of borders, but with all of the tiny territories I'm not sure how this can be avoided. I fear that dropping an army count on or near a terit like Luxembourg will make it even less clear what it borders. I think it would be reasonable for you to take some more artistic license and expand the borders of some of the smaller terits.

Somebody said something about moving the legend? I think it's in the right place, i just don't like the attempt at making it book shaped. The images don't look like anything you would ever see in a book, especially since it reads in the wrong direction.

[Ruben Cassar]

I cannot believe we are still debating Kosovo when the problems of this map are elsewhere.

The solution to Kosovo is obvious...follow the UN's decision. It seems some people want it because of their personal desires or political motivations. This issue is very serious and sensitive to people from Serbia. For them Kosovo is their cultural, historical and spiritual cradle. We must stick to what the UN does or else we will end up offending them.

Besides do you know how many problems would be created if Kosovo is added to this map? The Balkans region is already unplayable as it is because of all those small states cluttered together in one small region. Gameplay wise it's just what we do not want. How will we be able to play this map if all the army shadows are attached to one another?

However I like the idea of this region breakup proposed by oaktown as it might solve the territorial groupings. Then again the map has already enough territories and cluttering so maybe it's not the way to go either...

[iancanton]

how is this going to go for downsizing to the small map...are the armies going to fit onto some of these smaller terts.

Also the Slovakia word would be covered possibly by triple digit armies...do you have a contingency for that?

since the next update will be a major rework, how about downsizing to the small map and doing all updates on that? the large map can wait till the continents have solidified and we have graphics that are approaching final forge standard. this way, u'll never run out of room purely because of resizing issues.

how will the small countrys be given army circles

i think the map doesn't lose much if the micro-states aren't there.

What about additional - in particular German - rivers to seal of more parts of the map. Now the centre is a hornets nest.

i suggest including the oder and neisse rivers (they can be drawn as a single river), which run all the way along the eastern border of germany from the czech republic to the baltic sea. this is the famous oder-neisse line that stalin imposed as the border with poland. it forms a neat natural boundary between central and eastern europe. both continents are stuck in the middle of the map and the oder-neisse river gives to each continent some much-needed protection against the other.

http://www.nccg.org/preussen/preussen8.html

I cannot believe we are still debating Kosovo when the problems of this map are elsewhere.

why not call the map “europe 2007”, enabling us to sidestep this question? the map was started in 2007 and is accurate for that year, since kosovo had not yet declared independence.

ian.

[The Viking]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but shouldn't Greenland be in this map?

[Ruben Cassar]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but shouldn't Greenland be in this map?

Using an inset and linking it with Iceland perhaps. There is space in the North West area of the map for Greenland.

[edbeard]

Instead of traditional regions used for continents, you could consider holding a certain number of countries for bonuses.

eg: hold any four countries +1, any six +2, any seven +3


just an idea. It'll save the 'this country is more part of this region' talk.


the countries that you've split up into multiple territories could have separate bonuses for holding the entire country. +1 or something.


obviously, bonuses would be quite high so maybe removing / increasing the number of territories needed for that bonus. This probably is too far away from the standard play you are trying to do though. just another option.

[MrBenn]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I have been working on a major update, and am nearly there with it - but got too tired last night to finish it off and post it here - I'll try and get it finished this evening.

In the meantime, here's a summary of what to expect:
- Borders redrawn
- Greenland added in an inset box (thanks for the suggestion Ruben/Viking)
- Gibraltar has been removed
- Kosovo will not be on this map
- Territory groupings decided:
Scandinavia: Greenland, Iceland, Faroe Islands, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark
British Isles: England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland
Western Europe: Portugal, Spain, Andorra, France, Monaco, Corsica, Balearic Islands
Benelux: Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg
Central Europe: Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria
Italia: Italy, San Marino, Vatican City, Sicily, Sardinia, Malta
Eastern Europe: Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania
Baltics: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
Balkans: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnai & Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Crete
Transcontinental: Russia, Kaliningrad, Turkey, Cyprus
Caucasus: Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan
- The legend has been revamped
- I'm working on the small version and would like to ask for permission to take 630px width

In addition to the visual changes, I'm contemplating the following:
- The Balkan States - to get a bonus for this area, I'm contemplating having a 'hold any 6 or 7' (out of 10) requirement, instead of having to hold the whole thing.
-The Med Islands - they are now absorbed into different regions, but I would still like to have a bonus for holding any 5 of them.
-Map Title - On the latest update I've used 'Europa' as the title... what do people think?

[Ruben Cassar]

Okay let's start with what I like:
- The name Europa is great.
- Addition of Greenland is a good thing.
- I think the Balkans bonus is a good idea.
- The territory groupings are better however...

What I don't like and could possibly change:
- Cyprus is definitely part of Europe. It is even a member of the European Union. It cannot be a transcontinental. Try to fit it in somewhere else. Idea: create a region with Greece, Crete and Cyprus. Call it Hellenic States. This would also make the Balkans region better since it would have less territories.
- You added Malta with Italia...and I can understand that. However Malta is not part of Italy. Maybe you could call that region "Italic States". That would sound better since we do share the same ethnicity and culture.
- I am still not happy with Russia not being part of Eastern Europe. Why not add it to Eastern Europe? Also note that Kaliningrad is not a country but part of Russia so it doesn't make sense adding it as a territory when all the other territories are states (apart from the Balearic Islands).

Looking forward to the next update. I know that sometimes it may sound as if I'm always arguing about some stuff but it's because I know that this map has great potential and that you can pull it off. I like your approach. Good work!

[MrBenn]

Thanks Ruben.

It took me ages to decide which regions to put Malta/Cyprus in - I'm not surpised that you picked up on that

I like the 'Hellenic States' idea, and will give that some more consideration.

I'm not too sure about 'Italic' states though... it reminds me of italics!
... any other suggestions for the name of this region?

I expect that there will not be room for a territory name and an army number in Kaliningrad, and have been contemplating taking it out anyway. If it goes, should that erea stay as an exclave of Russia, and make Russia able to attack Lithuania/Poland? Or is that too gimicky?

You don't need to worry about coming across as argumentative - your criticism is always constructive, and you seem to take care in presenting alternative options.

[Qwert]

Kosovo will not be on this map

Finaly some proper decision

[yeti_c]

- Greenland added in an inset box (thanks for the suggestion Ruben/Viking)
- Gibraltar has been removed

Not sure about these 2?

a) Where is Greenland? isn't that part of USA? or are we talking about a different Greenland?
b) Why removal of Gibraltar?

C.

[Ruben Cassar]

- Greenland added in an inset box (thanks for the suggestion Ruben/Viking)
- Gibraltar has been removed

Not sure about these 2?

a) Where is Greenland? isn't that part of USA? or are we talking about a different Greenland?
b) Why removal of Gibraltar?

C.

Greenland is part of Europe. It's a dependancy of Denmark. In fact Denmark gives Greenland some funds each year for its budget as far as I know. Greenland was also part of the EU (automatically when Denmark joined) but it actually pulled out of the EU since it trades a lot with N. America.

Gibraltar? Don't know why, but I guess it's because it's not an independent state and it did not fit in with the territory groupings perhaps? Ben can answer this one.

[The Viking]

Greenland is politically part of Europe, but geographically part of N. America, tectonic plates n stuff.

Why is Sicily a territory though? And Cyprus, Corsica and some other(sorry if it's been discussed already).

Also, instead of putting Greenland in an insertion box or whatever, how about rotating the map just a little bit counter-clockwise, that way there wouldn't be so much empty sea territory to the west and you might fit a nice chunk of Greenland in the north-western corner?
It might even enable you to zoom in a little, but I'm not sure.

And why Rep. Ireland and not just Ireland/Éire?

And lastly, I think the placement of the army circles(and names) of smaller territories like the Vatican, Luxembourg, Monaco, and others might need reconsidering.

[MrBenn]

Update! Update! Update!April 21st 2008

With Army Numbers:


Here at long last is a major graphical update!
- Borders completely redrawn
- Region colours changed around
- Country names - changed font and blending
- Greenland added in an inset box (thanks for the suggestion Ruben/Viking)
- Gibraltar has been removed (temporarily)
- Kosovo will not be on this map
- Territory groupings decided
- The legend has been completely revamped
- Work now taking place on the small version of the map
- Map title changed to Europa

----------

'To Do' list:
- The Balkan States- to get a bonus for this area, I'm contemplating having a 'hold any 6 or 7' (out of 10) requirement, instead of having to hold the whole thing.
- The Med Islands - they are now absorbed into different regions, but I would still like to have a bonus for holding any 5 of them.
- The Legend - it looks better, but I'm not wholly convinced it's there (especially Med Islands bit)
- Find a better name for the Italy/Malta region
- Put Gibraltar back on the map
- Finalise Region groupings - Cyprus needs a better home
- Sort out the bonuses

[pepperonibread]

With all the nice smooth borders you've got now, I think it would be good to find a font to better fit with that aspect of the map.

[yeti_c]

Perhaps put "Serbia & Kosovo" instead of just Serbia - if you're not having Kosovo as a seperate place? (Apologies if I got the wrong country to add that too) - It might please both sides of the camp.

If you're having Greenland "cos it's part of Denmark" - then where are the Falklands?

Unsure about Cyprus being brown too.

C.

[The Viking]

Croatia is missing an army circle.

To yeti: Greenland is a "Parliamentary democracy within a constitutional monarchy", it has a prime minister(which is not the same as the danish one), a parliamentary, was granted "home rule" in 1978, and is politically and historically closely linked to Europe(btw, if Greenland is part of the same continent as Iceland, the Faroe Islands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland then I would say that's beyond speculation rightly named the Nordic countries, not Scandinavia).

[yeti_c]

But I don't think that Iceland IS the same continental plate as Iceland - it's on the same continental plate as America?

C.

[Ogrecrusher]

I'm fine with Greenland existing on the map, my bigger problem is it looks nothing like Greenland.

[yeti_c]

In fact my previous comment was a touch off...

Greenland is on the same plate as Half of Iceland!!

(On a different note) I thought there was a "euro" & "asia" plate... not just 1 plate...

& Kamchatka - is on the same plate as America!

C.