Operation Drug War [Quenched]

[oaktown]

phones are necessary to give more movement around the map

What if they were changed to Garages? Cars? You could say that each garage can attack each other, and even throw in some "drive-by" bombardments if you wanted.

Some tinkering is definitely needed though. I think the Hideout sector needs a boost for one. Maybe a slight bonus increase for each muscle (when you have 2nd or Leader).

A thorough discussion about bonuses is needed... but I don't have it in me right now.

It is 'rules heavy' but how many times do you have to play a 'rules heavy' map before you figure out how it works?

There are a lot of rules, but not so many that it isn't playable. For me what is making this map a bit hard to follow is that the legend is still a work in progress. Once some elements of the legend are cleaned up I think the rules will be easier to follow... e.g. the line breaks, words bleeding over lines, extraneous information like the date and time, clunky font, the block in the middle breaking it up, the symbols that get a bit lost in the background, etc.

[edbeard]

Hey Ed,

I like the color coded labels indicating bonuses.

I don't know about the green (new) graphics. I kinda dig the existing color scheme.

I like this version better. It adds more to the map instead of just being plain. It doesn't make sense to have details in 5 sectors and not in the corners

I'm confused about why the Driver territory has a table instead of a car. Also, I'm still not comfortable with the supplier territory graphics. It's better because you shifted the label, but having it still looks like the table and the helicopter should be separate territories. Please consider making this one box with one graphical feature.

I'll pass this comment on to Telvannia

The three columns could be made equal in width. There is a lot of extra space in the middle column because there are only 5 or 6 territories whereas the narrower outer columns have up to 8 territories in a section.

They could be but I don't think it makes much of a difference. The Stash House sector needed to be somewhat big so I think it all works.


Is there a bonus for holding the Stash House?

There is not. I don't want anyone holding that for a bonus. You want people getting bonuses and objective areas on the outside and fighting to hold the main stash too.

Do you have to hold the whole objective at the beginning of a turn or just by the end of a turn to win?

Beginning of your turn. Everyone gets a chance to stop you.

SM

:hoping you're a girl face:

LMR

thanks!

phones are necessary to give more movement around the map

What if they were changed to Garages? Cars? You could say that each garage can attack each other, and even throw in some "drive-by" bombardments if you wanted.

Well there's plenty of cars on the map already (as you'll see from the mini-update below), but Phones work because they'd be located in a public place. Communication and movement are synonymous!

I believe those white lines are street lights. I'd have to ask Telvannia though.

we got rid of them as you'll see below

It is 'rules heavy' but how many times do you have to play a 'rules heavy' map before you figure out how it works?

There are a lot of rules, but not so many that it isn't playable. For me what is making this map a bit hard to follow is that the legend is still a work in progress. Once some elements of the legend are cleaned up I think the rules will be easier to follow... e.g. the line breaks, words bleeding over lines, extraneous information like the date and time, clunky font, the block in the middle breaking it up, the symbols that get a bit lost in the background, etc.

I'll pass this comment on to Telvannia as well

thanks!




Mini-update. Just put some cars and people into the map. Also got rid of the street lights. Telvannia is on extended break from outside stuff so I flew over to the UK and locked him in his room. He'll be working on his Dark Age Britain map, but hopefully we can get the graphics done at the least and a regular update soon

[t-o-m]

just looks like prohibition chicago, and is still a stupid idea

it looks like it a bit - thats not a bad thing, the gameplay is different, and i like it..
i bet youve not even read the thread and you had a quick glance at it and decided that you would post a stupid snide remark..

--tom

[edbeard]

v10
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v5


What you need to know

1. This is an objective map. Four different ones that all include holding the main stash.
2. There are 24 starting territories. Everything starts neutral except the 8 patrol cars, the 4 corner bosses, the 4 runners, the 4 corner junkies, the 4 counters.
That's 4*4 + 8 = 16 + 8 = 24
3. There are 35 other territories that start out as neutral
4. Number of neutrals on those territories has yet to be determined. Proposed 2 on all with the exceptions of 4 on objective territories and 6 on Main Stash


Just done:

1. added people to most of the sectors

2. made legend less cluttered (hopefully?)

3. coloured bonuses for the corners



To do:

1. finalize neutral values

2. finish art throughout.

3. Thorough gameplay discussion

[edbeard]

lets gets some gameplay discussion going


1. Ed, won't everyone just go after the patrols in 2 player games? It seems like the 5 patrols for +4 could be a killer.

Well you might be right about people trying this. 8 patrols are starting but remember that 4 of them occur in the corners. So, at least one of them will be attackable from a corner.

There are quite a lot of +1 bonuses to be had in the corners and honestly these are probably easier to hold especially if you go after one corner.

To be frank, two player games aren't the optimal size for this map, and also starting with 5 of the 8 patrols (especially when you only start with 8 territories) is not that likely. It'll be more optimal to go after smaller bonuses first (which is the idea).


2. It seems like City Hall is the best way to go. Patrols are starting territories so getting that bonus is easier than the muscle bonus.

True it's slightly easier but it's only +1 per patrol, and you have to hold BOTH the Lieutenant and the Commissioner. The Hideout version of this bonus gives you +2 per muscle and you only need either the leader or the boss. Each muscle only starts with 2 neutrals on it anyway. Also, the Attorney can backdoor you by going through the D.A. to get to either the Commissioner or the Lieutenant.

Furthermore, the Detective has a straight route to the Lieutenant to stop this bonus.


3. Why would anyone go after the Vacants or Supply?

The Vacants can stop bonuses via the stick-up man by bombarding stashes. And, they can stop the objective by bombarding the main stash from the stick-up man.

The Supply sector doesn't give you many armies but you have your own personal route to the main stash.


4. It seems like there are a lot of starting neutrals on the map?

That's true, but most territories only have 2 neutral armies on them.

Phones give you bonuses for holding them and are an alternative to the patrols to moving around the map.

There's always an incentive for taking over neutrals. Taking over neutrals gives you movement and/or bonus help.

[laci_mae]

Hi SM,

I was wondering how you're doing with the updates. The thread has fallen quiet, so I wanted to check in. I don't think there's much to comment on until you get the new graphics throughout. Is there anything specific you'd like feedback on before then?

* What is the round white thing in "Counter" in the new graphics?

:I'm a girl face:

Best,
LMR

[edbeard]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

v11
v10
v9
v8
v7
v6
v5


What you need to know

1. This is an objective map. Four different ones that all include holding the main stash.
2. There are 24 starting territories. Everything starts neutral except the 8 patrol cars, the 4 corner bosses, the 4 runners, the 4 corner junkies, the 4 counters.
That's 4*4 + 8 = 16 + 8 = 24
3. There are 35 other territories that start out as neutral
4. Number of neutrals on those territories has yet to be determined. Proposed 2 on all with the exceptions of 4 on objective territories and 6 on Main Stash


Just done:

1. graphics done! Lets give Telvannia a round of applause for the great job he's done on this.
2. corner graphics finished
3. added phone bonus back to legend that got taken off accidentally
4. Large map added!
5. Legend tinkering

To do:

1. finish gameplay talk
2. finalize neutral values
3. fix stash borders in south corners

Points of Discussion:

1. Laci I believe that is a water fountain

[oaktown]

Legend thought: What if you start with the title where it is, but put the mini-map below it. This would allow you to have one or two columns of legend data to the right of the title/mini map in an unbroken block. And while I don't love the choice of font, I recognize the look you're going for... but maybe lose the italics on it? I'm cool with the look of the map itself, but the legend still seems clunky.

[edbeard]

Legend thought: What if you start with the title where it is, but put the mini-map below it. This would allow you to have one or two columns of legend data to the right of the title/mini map in an unbroken block. And while I don't love the choice of font, I recognize the look you're going for... but maybe lose the italics on it? I'm cool with the look of the map itself, but the legend still seems clunky.

I passed this along to Telvannia


Since you're the gameplay stamp dude, how about your thoughts on that? Here's how the starting territories and neutrals look

Click image to enlarge.

[oaktown]

Since you're the gameplay stamp dude, how about your thoughts on that? Here's how the starting territories and neutrals look

For starters, I consider the user-friendliness of the legend a pretty key part of the map's gameplay. If your map is hard to figure out, it's going to impact the play and, ultimately, the popularity of the map.

As for the starting counts, I'll try to take a closer look at them at some point, but my general feeling is that you know the map best, ed, so unless something looks way out of whack I'll leave that up to you. You may end up doing little tweaks here and there, but as long as the starting values don't put one player at an early advantage/disadvantage I suspect the starting values are fine.

[edbeard]

sounds good.


one thing I'd like your thoughts on though is the patrols bonus. since players start with them, that bonus might be something they go after early on. Do you think increasing it to 6 patrols for the +4 or decreasing the bonus to +3 would be beneficial?

[AndyDufresne]

Regarding patrols, **scratches his chin, eats a banana** you could bump the number up to 6. I think I like that more than bumping the value down to 3....hm


--Andy

[oaktown]

Regarding patrols, **scratches his chin, eats a banana** you could bump the number up to 6. I think I like that more than bumping the value down to 3....hm

I would go the other way. I'd like to see a map in which players actually go after the objective rather than just pummel each other. I'd be in favor of giving less value to the territories/regions on which everybody starts, and make it more advantageous to expand into new turf/go after the victory objectives.

But then,it's late and I'm tired, so I should look more closely at the bonuses when I have fresher eyes.

[edbeard]

A.
I think I'll go with needing 6 patrols AND making it +3

I don't want patrols to be the focus in 1v1 games (even though this map is more of a 4 player game. at least I think anyway).


B.
Another thought/question is the bonuses in the Hideout Sector. Do you think there's enough incentive to go there?
1. You get +2 per muscle if you hold either leader or 2nd. It's fairly easy to get muscle though because all muscle start with 2 neutrals.
2. Only connection is the phone and the attorney (via DA).


C.
What do you think of the bonuses for the sectors? (the mini-map bonuses)

[gimil]

I havent really got any major concerns but can I see a small image without the starting numbers on it please?

[edbeard]

Click image to enlarge.

v12small
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v11
v10
v9
v8
v7
v6
v5


What you need to know

1. This is an objective map. Four different ones that all include holding the main stash.
2. There are 24 starting territories. Everything starts neutral except the 8 patrol cars, the 4 corner bosses, the 4 runners, the 4 corner junkies, the 4 counters.
That's 4*4 + 8 = 16 + 8 = 24
3. There are 35 other territories that start out as neutral
4. Number of neutrals on those territories has yet to be determined. Proposed 2 on all with the exceptions of 4 on objective territories and 6 on Main Stash


Just done:

1. graphical change. The map 'image' is changed into a photo on top of the report. the legend is now at the bottom and I think redone to quite a high level. I think clarity and spacing concerns have been met.

This was all Telvannia's doing. I have to say it is quite good.

2. Patrol bonus now +3 for holding 6

To do:

1. finish gameplay talk
2. finalize neutral values

Points of Discussion:

[Incandenza]

As someone playing on a smallish (12" laptop) screen, I would prefer that the legend be at the top unless there's a compelling reason for it not to be. Even the small map will require scrolling for attacks, and I'd rather see the whole map and have to scroll up for the legend than see the legend long after I've learned the gameplay and bonuses and have to scroll up to see the top of the actual physical game area.

[edbeard]

Click image to enlarge.

[TaCktiX]

The alternate colors on Stash and Junkie CI make it harder to read, FYI.

My impression of the map is one that will be fun. Bonuses are small but widespread, and getting around the map is a breeze (5 groups that connect to each other). Should be interesting to see as people bring in several pieces of their objective and start fighting over the Main Stash.

[graulenst]

The game play on this map will be very interesting indeed. I am looking forward to playing this one.

I am having trouble reading some of the pink muscle terr. names especially in the NW and SE. I think the pink muscle in the NE has some sort of black outline (could just be my eyes) that makes it a little easier to read.

[laci_mae]

As someone playing on a smallish (12" laptop) screen, I would prefer that the legend be at the top unless there's a compelling reason for it not to be. Even the small map will require scrolling for attacks, and I'd rather see the whole map and have to scroll up for the legend than see the legend long after I've learned the gameplay and bonuses and have to scroll up to see the top of the actual physical game area.

BOB will solve all your troubles!

LMR

[Incandenza]

Thanks ed.

BOB will solve all your troubles!

BOB can't make my laptop bigger, otherwise I'd be getting junk emails with titles like "fr33 b0b 4 ur c0mput3r"

[laci_mae]

I have a similar sized laptop, and the HUD menu makes it where I rarely have to scroll. I do think sometimes that BOB is a super-hero. He could totally have his own comic book.

LMR

[gimil]

After looking at the small i have no real graphics issues. Ill hold off te stamping until oaktown has another say here. Make sure he has no large gameplay complaints that could tamper with graphics.

[MrBenn]

Nothing major from me - just a couple of observations:

1 - I agree with comments about the legend being at the top of the map - I think it would be better there.

2 - I like the style of the photograph attached to the document. Will the 'diagonal' text look slightly out of place with the army numbers, which won't be rotated/tilted??

3 - Gameplay looks reasonably sound; you might decided to tweak things around as you see fit, but nothing jumps out and grabs me as being unfairly balanced.