Racism

[suggs]

Nope. There are tiny biological differences. They have no bearing on intellectual, moral or physical capacities, but they are there -pigmentation.
Its not arbitrary - I couldnt choose to be black, for example.
Please apply some rigour to your thinking.

[jonesthecurl]

Definition of "race" is as more culture than biological differences .. both in who is defined as what race and who is doing the defining.

In the US, we often speak of 4 races -- black, white, red and yellow, but then get sort of confused when it comes to placing black Indians (as in from India), Pacific Islanders ... etc.

Now, in the UK, we wouldn't call "Asians" (ie people from the indian subcontinent) black.

In Africa, as we can see, there are perceived to be a large number of different races (all of whom, if they lved in the US would be seen as "African-American") - thus leading to inter-racial strife, as in Kenya and Rwanda.

I once mortally offended a guy in Kenya by assuming he was Masai, when he was in fact (I forget the name of the tribe) of another group that dressed (to my eye) identically, had the same dietary peculiarities and the same hunting dance. On the other hand, when I correctly identified our guide as Kikuyu, and managed to say "goodbye" in Kikuyu rather than Swahili (it was the only phrase I could do), he very nearly refused a tip (and that is high praise indeed in Kenya).

[jonesthecurl]

.. and I really did wish I could "choose to be black", at least for a short while. I wanted to get out and about and absorb some of the local culture - but wherever I went I was immediately spotted as someone relatively rich, who might buy something or give something away. i couldn't just casually walk into a bar or tea-shop and melt into the background.

Oh, and here's a hugely useful thing to say in Swahili when another horde of people try to sell you some old tat - "Sipendi, Sitaki, Sivyo." - "I don't need it, I don't want it, NO." If you say it in English, it will take a lot longer to persuade them.

[Snorri1234]

.. and I really did wish I could "choose to be black", at least for a short while. I wanted to get out and about and absorb some of the local culture - but wherever I went I was immediately spotted as someone relatively rich, who might buy something or give something away. i couldn't just casually walk into a bar or tea-shop and melt into the background.

It also gives you street-cred!

[PLAYER57832]

Nope. There are tiny biological differences. They have no bearing on intellectual, moral or physical capacities, but they are there -pigmentation.
Its not arbitrary - I couldnt choose to be black, for example.
Please apply some rigour to your thinking.

Except ... there are all kinds of exceptions to every grouping and exactly how these "clearly defined characteristics" fall depends highly upon your country of origin.

The US demarcations make the most sense to me (I am from here, after all), but only if you apply them extremely broadly and understand that there are about as many exceptions to the "rules" as those who "follow" the rules.


You can talk about skin color. You can talk about eye color. You can talk about hair color. You can talk about various features, such as eyes with "folds", round, etc.


However, when you try to put them together, they only really and truly are clear if you limit your perception to Europe Versus central Africa versus the main part of Asia versus the Native individuals of continental US.

Even then ... when you really look at all the features, you see as much or more variation within the groups (especially Native American) than between.

BUT, that doesn't stop lots and lots of people from insisting that there really is such a thing as race and that it is important.

[reminisco]

.. and I really did wish I could "choose to be black", at least for a short while. I wanted to get out and about and absorb some of the local culture - but wherever I went I was immediately spotted as someone relatively rich, who might buy something or give something away. i couldn't just casually walk into a bar or tea-shop and melt into the background.

hey man, if you really wanna blend in round Jersey or Philly -- try wearing working class clothing. i'm assuming you have a British accent, and nothing can be done about that, but if you wear tattered jeans and a Carhart jacket, you might get through some of the roadblocks. (honestly, there's no better coat on the market than Carhart anyway -- in terms of durability, comfort, fit, and range of motion. plus, Dr. Dre bought up a large portion of the company in the early 90s -- so in some ways, Carhart gets you more street cred than Dickies. but if you really want the outfit, go for Dickies pants and a Carhart coat. then some faded t-shirt from a thrift store somewhere and a flannel or a tattered oxford on top of that.)

and try to buy things just a bit too big for yourself. if you wear clothes that FIT you, you will stand out as being someone with money -- or at least, that's often the street assumption. it's something that i think developed from getting lots of hand-me-down clothing, for kids growing up in working class families. so they got used to the plus size clothing, always having to "grow into it". also important is to wear a shirt or jacket that covers your privates. it is often considered impolite to wear your shirt tails out in middle and upper class circles, but in the hood, you cover your privates. this derives from Muslim culture, wherein it is considered filthy and sinful to not cover your genitalia.

you can wear sneakers. although tan Timmys would be best, sometimes it makes white people look too much like poseurs. just don't wear sneakers that are too fancy. i like to compromise, and wear Merrells -- which, admittedly have lost a lot of quality over the last few years, but are still quality walking shoes with a low-key look. and, since the brand is largely unrecognized by working class people, they generally don't realize they aren't just a generic shoe bought from Payless. if you wanna be completely legit, go to Payless -- but the products there are often so shoddy, it'll hurt your feet more than spare your wallet.

i've been active in "black culture" for several years now, yet i will always be different, separate, because of my skin color. however, i've managed to get past many of the initial roadblocks by dressing blue collar. my close friends know that i have to dress professionally often, when i'm going into the office, etc. and don't hold it against me... but they'd think i had lost my mind if i came to hang out in the hood wearing my best Brooks Brothers suit.

think of it as the flip side to a black kid growing up in a white dominated suburban community. and i'm sure you've all known a few "snowflakes" in your time. granted, i won't change the way i speak when i'm in the hood. i do use local slang, but i don't try to alter my pronunciation. it makes you look worse to try and mimic the speech patterns rather than to just speak as you were raised, but adopt local slang cause you're hip.

anyway, that's my little manifesto on the topic, if you're really trying to expose yourself to the day to day experience of black people in America -- that's how i successfully "infiltrated" (despite always being an outsider) and found life-long friends in the process.

[PLAYER57832]

.. and I really did wish I could "choose to be black", at least for a short while. I wanted to get out and about and absorb some of the local culture - but wherever I went I was immediately spotted as someone relatively rich, who might buy something or give something away. i couldn't just casually walk into a bar or tea-shop and melt into the background.

hey man, if you really wanna blend in round Jersey or Philly -- try wearing working class clothing. i'm assuming you have a British accent, and nothing can be done about that, but if you wear tattered jeans and a Carhart jacket, you might get through some of the roadblocks. (honestly, there's no better coat on the market than Carhart anyway -- in terms of durability, comfort, fit, and range of motion. plus, Dr. Dre bought up a large portion of the company in the early 90s -- so in some ways, Carhart gets you more street cred than Dickies. but if you really want the outfit, go for Dickies pants and a Carhart coat. then some faded t-shirt from a thrift store somewhere and a flannel or a tattered oxford on top of that.)

you can wear sneakers. although tan Timmys would be best, sometimes it makes white people look too much like poseurs. just don't wear sneakers that are too fancy. i like to compromise, and wear Merrells -- which, admittedly have lost a lot of quality over the last few years, but are still quality walking shoes with a low-key look. and, since the brand is largely unrecognized by working class people, they generally don't realize they aren't just a generic shoe bought from Payless. if you wanna be completely legit, go to Payless -- but the products there are often so shoddy, it'll hurt your feet more than spare your wallet.

i've been active in "black culture" for several years now, yet i will always be different, separate, because of my skin color. however, i've managed to get past many of the initial roadblocks by dressing blue collar. my close friends know that i have to dress professionally often, when i'm going into the office, etc. and don't hold it against me... but they'd think i had lost my mind if i came to hang out in the hood wearing my best Brooks Brothers suit.

think of it as the flip side to a black kid growing up in a white dominated suburban community. and i'm sure you've all known a few "snowflakes" in your time. granted, i won't change the way i speak when i'm in the hood. i do use local slang, but i don't try to alter my pronunciation. it makes you look worse to try and mimic the speech patterns rather than to just speak as you were raised, but adopt local slang cause you're hip.

anyway, that's my little manifesto on the topic, if you're really trying to expose yourself to the day to day experience of black people in America -- that's how i successfully "infiltrated" and found life-long friends in the process.

One of the nicest posts I have seen from you yet ... but then, on many issues we are on opposite sides of the poll (what makes life.. and debate interesting).

Anyway, if you want to "blend in" in my community, wear a flannel shirt, jeans and any shoes.

Out west ... don't even try, but folks probably won't care so much, either. It is pretty commong up in northern CA to have loggers on one side, veggie "environmentalist" types on the other ... and a few assorted "others" (anyone else) around and about. And, they tend to more or less get along, but definitely avoid certain topics.

At least, until you get to the "hinter lands" ... and in some of those places, anyone who's grandfather didn't settle there is an "outsider".. so don't bother trying to "blend" for another reason. Actually, it is a "bit" like that here, except we have a lot of non-locals who come in for various reasons (hunting, fishing, etc ...) ... and many who have been coming for generations.

[Napoleon Ier]

hey man, if you really wanna blend in round Jersey or Philly -- try wearing working class clothing. i'm assuming you have a British accent, and nothing can be done about that, but if you wear tattered jeans and a Carhart jacket, you might get through some of the roadblocks. (honestly, there's no better coat on the market than Carhart anyway -- in terms of durability, comfort, fit, and range of motion. plus, Dr. Dre bought up a large portion of the company in the early 90s -- so in some ways, Carhart gets you more street cred than Dickies. but if you really want the outfit, go for Dickies pants and a Carhart coat. then some faded t-shirt from a thrift store somewhere and a flannel or a tattered oxford on top of that.)

you can wear sneakers. although tan Timmys would be best, sometimes it makes white people look too much like poseurs. just don't wear sneakers that are too fancy. i like to compromise, and wear Merrells -- which, admittedly have lost a lot of quality over the last few years, but are still quality walking shoes with a low-key look. and, since the brand is largely unrecognized by working class people, they generally don't realize they aren't just a generic shoe bought from Payless. if you wanna be completely legit, go to Payless -- but the products there are often so shoddy, it'll hurt your feet more than spare your wallet.

i've been active in "black culture" for several years now, yet i will always be different, separate, because of my skin color. however, i've managed to get past many of the initial roadblocks by dressing blue collar. my close friends know that i have to dress professionally often, when i'm going into the office, etc. and don't hold it against me... but they'd think i had lost my mind if i came to hang out in the hood wearing my best Brooks Brothers suit.

think of it as the flip side to a black kid growing up in a white dominated suburban community. and i'm sure you've all known a few "snowflakes" in your time. granted, i won't change the way i speak when i'm in the hood. i do use local slang, but i don't try to alter my pronunciation. it makes you look worse to try and mimic the speech patterns rather than to just speak as you were raised, but adopt local slang cause you're hip.

anyway, that's my little manifesto on the topic, if you're really trying to expose yourself to the day to day experience of black people in America -- that's how i successfully "infiltrated" and found life-long friends in the process.

[/quote]

I can't help it that I have pale skin, I look at myself in the mirror sometimes, and uncontrollably whimper....the pain of representing such an insular, closed culture is something that I must face on a daily basis....I remember when I was a child, I would roll about in the mud, and hope that I stayed that colour....My father (who was a green-peace activist) would let me not wash for days upon end, but alas, it would eventually rub off...

[jonesthecurl]

Actually I specifically meant I'd have liked to be able to be black when I was in Kenya. there are so few white people there that you always stand out.

In the US, you might stand out in a particular neighbourhood (or indeed in the UK), but not in the same way.

I stand out most places somehow anyway - market researchers, beggars, Hara krishna's out for a convert, random loonies, all pick me out of a crowd as the likely one. maybe I just don't look threatening.

Here's another quote for Nappy: "Brown is the colour of skin that I'd like to be in, 'cos it doesn't feel right to be coloured so white" (Kevin Ayers)

[Napoleon Ier]

Actually I specifically meant I'd have liked to be able to be black when I was in Kenya. there are so few white people there that you always stand out.

In the US, you might stand out in a particular neighbourhood (or indeed in the UK), but not in the same way.

I stand out most places somehow anyway - market researchers, beggars, Hara krishna's out for a convert, random loonies, all pick me out of a crowd as the likely one. maybe I just don't look threatening.

Here's another quote for Nappy: "Brown is the colour of skin that I'd like to be in, 'cos it doesn't feel right to be coloured so white" (Kevin Ayers)

Ayers likely suffers from an aggravated psycho-identitary crisis resulting from a severe Freudian complex stemming from an unresovled stage of role confusion, hich most probably occured during adolescence.

[jonesthecurl]

Actually I specifically meant I'd have liked to be able to be black when I was in Kenya. there are so few white people there that you always stand out.

In the US, you might stand out in a particular neighbourhood (or indeed in the UK), but not in the same way.

I stand out most places somehow anyway - market researchers, beggars, Hara krishna's out for a convert, random loonies, all pick me out of a crowd as the likely one. maybe I just don't look threatening.

Here's another quote for Nappy: "Brown is the colour of skin that I'd like to be in, 'cos it doesn't feel right to be coloured so white" (Kevin Ayers)

Ayers likely suffers from an aggravated psycho-identitary crisis resulting from a severe Freudian complex stemming from an unresovled stage of role confusion, hich most probably occured during adolescence.

I think he was drunk - he usually was. Also, he was writing a song about colours and didn't want to rhyme "white" with "right" in a more obvious way. "Blue is the colour of sky, and I won't even try to explain how or why, I'll just show you the sky".

[tzor]

As a Isish/Scot/Lithuanian American I generally hate the term "black." Most African Americans are not "black." They are light, to dark to very dark brown. There are a few races in Africa that are really blue/black, but I have never seen them in the United States.

[Snorri1234]

Actually I specifically meant I'd have liked to be able to be black when I was in Kenya. there are so few white people there that you always stand out.

In the US, you might stand out in a particular neighbourhood (or indeed in the UK), but not in the same way.

I stand out most places somehow anyway - market researchers, beggars, Hara krishna's out for a convert, random loonies, all pick me out of a crowd as the likely one. maybe I just don't look threatening.

Here's another quote for Nappy: "Brown is the colour of skin that I'd like to be in, 'cos it doesn't feel right to be coloured so white" (Kevin Ayers)

Ayers likely suffers from an aggravated psycho-identitary crisis resulting from a severe Freudian complex stemming from an unresovled stage of role confusion, hich most probably occured during adolescence.

Word. Anyone knows white skin is better...

[reminisco]

I can't help it that I have pale skin, I look at myself in the mirror sometimes, and uncontrollably whimper....the pain of representing such an insular, closed culture is something that I must face on a daily basis....I remember when I was a child, I would roll about in the mud, and hope that I stayed that colour....My father (who was a green-peace activist) would let me not wash for days upon end, but alas, it would eventually rub off...

i didn't write that, and you know it. please identify the original author.

[jiminski]

Actually I specifically meant I'd have liked to be able to be black when I was in Kenya. there are so few white people there that you always stand out.

In the US, you might stand out in a particular neighbourhood (or indeed in the UK), but not in the same way.

I stand out most places somehow anyway - market researchers, beggars, Hara krishna's out for a convert, random loonies, all pick me out of a crowd as the likely one. maybe I just don't look threatening.

Here's another quote for Nappy: "Brown is the colour of skin that I'd like to be in, 'cos it doesn't feel right to be coloured so white" (Kevin Ayers)

Ayers likely suffers from an aggravated psycho-identitary crisis resulting from a severe Freudian complex stemming from an unresovled stage of role confusion, hich most probably occured during adolescence.

hehe this is gibberish... I suppose 2 or 3 words do fit together...

Are you trying to say that he is confused because he wants to have sex with his unnaturally suntanned mother?

[reminisco]

Ayers likely suffers from an aggravated psycho-identitary crisis resulting from a severe Freudian complex stemming from an unresovled stage of role confusion, hich most probably occured during adolescence.

hehe this is gibberish... I suppose 2 or 3 words do fit together...

Are you trying to say that he is confused because he wants to have sex with his unnaturally suntanned mother?

what is more amazing is the implication that Nappy buysinto Freudian psychology, which would raise an interesting dichotomy in his general presentation of ideas, in that the science of Freud's theories are as demonstrable as the theory of evolution, but where Nappy sees nothing but fault in evolution...

well, you know where i'm going here.

[Napoleon Ier]

Ayers likely suffers from an aggravated psycho-identitary crisis resulting from a severe Freudian complex stemming from an unresovled stage of role confusion, hich most probably occured during adolescence.

hehe this is gibberish... I suppose 2 or 3 words do fit together...

Are you trying to say that he is confused because he wants to have sex with his unnaturally suntanned mother?

what is more amazing is the implication that Nappy buysinto Freudian psychology, which would raise an interesting dichotomy in his general presentation of ideas, in that the science of Freud's theories are as demonstrable as the theory of evolution, but where Nappy sees nothing but fault in evolution...

well, you know where i'm going here.

Really? Find me a single post made written by myself which would back this up...

[InkL0sed]

Well, you do often refer to Freud when insulting people, Naps.

[Napoleon Ier]

Well, you do often refer to Freud when insulting people, Naps.

I was referring to the unsubstantiated accusation that suggested I don't believe in evolution.

[Snorri1234]

Well, you do often refer to Freud when insulting people, Naps.

I was referring to the unsubstantiated accusation that suggested I don't believe in evolution.

Can't recall you ever saying that indeed. Remi was obviously shrooming.

[reminisco]

Well, you do often refer to Freud when insulting people, Naps.

I was referring to the unsubstantiated accusation that suggested I don't believe in evolution.

Can't recall you ever saying that indeed. Remi was obviously shrooming.

yeah, my bad Nappy, i truly do owe you an apology. i was confused, but not shrooming, and since i seldom read in detail the long threads arguing stuff back and forth, i must have just assumed you would take the anti-evolution position. i should have checked first to verify my claim, and i apologize.

now, don't you have anything to say to me, regarding your dubious quote -- which you attribute to me, but that i never wrote?

[Napoleon Ier]

Well, you do often refer to Freud when insulting people, Naps.

I was referring to the unsubstantiated accusation that suggested I don't believe in evolution.

Can't recall you ever saying that indeed. Remi was obviously shrooming.

yeah, my bad Nappy, i truly do owe you an apology. i was confused, but not shrooming, and since i seldom read in detail the long threads arguing stuff back and forth, i must have just assumed you would take the anti-evolution position. i should have checked first to verify my claim, and i apologize.

now, don't you have anything to say to me, regarding your dubious quote -- which you attribute to me, but that i never wrote?

My quote was a satyrical take on the modern leftist in ethno-identitary crisis, written by the excellent Wayne Kerstain, if anyone remembers him...

[reminisco]

My quote was a satyrical take on the modern leftist in ethno-identitary crisis, written by the excellent Wayne Kerstain, if anyone remembers him...

so you suggest that i have experienced an ethnic identity crisis?

[Snorri1234]

My quote was a satyrical take on the modern leftist in ethno-identitary crisis, written by the excellent Wayne Kerstain, if anyone remembers him...

so you suggest that i have experienced an ethnic identity crisis?

No, he's making fun of you.

He doesn't know you, so anything he says about you is just him trying to rile you up.

[jiminski]

Ayers likely suffers from an aggravated psycho-identitary crisis resulting from a severe Freudian complex stemming from an unresovled stage of role confusion, hich most probably occured during adolescence.

hehe this is gibberish... I suppose 2 or 3 words do fit together...

Are you trying to say that he is confused because he wants to have sex with his unnaturally suntanned mother?

what is more amazing is the implication that Nappy buysinto Freudian psychology, which would raise an interesting dichotomy in his general presentation of ideas, in that the science of Freud's theories are as demonstrable as the theory of evolution, but where Nappy sees nothing but fault in evolution...

well, you know where i'm going here.

Really? Find me a single post made written by myself which would back this up...

Are you two in this together? it's like having Morecambe and Wise on a leash for our pleasure.. marvellous stuff!

and to keep on thread! when McCain came back from murdering Communists due to his Neo-Con agenda, they made his a grand Wizard in the KKK. Fact!

Ed Schultz:

"....somebody in the KKK is rooting for John McCain.”

McCain is the Candidate KKK hierarchy throw their weight behind!!!!