Freedom of Speech

[Juan_Bottom]

Does Europe have a problem with Holocaust deniers? We don't have that here....

[Snorri1234]

Does Europe have a problem with Holocaust deniers?

It's illegal in some places I believe. But then you can also get punished for insulting the queen or whatnot.

[MeDeFe]

Does Europe have a problem with Holocaust deniers?

It's illegal in some places I believe. But then you can also get punished for insulting the queen or whatnot.

Monarchy in general sucks and all kings and queens are jerks. Now go ahead and punish me.

[Snorri1234]

Does Europe have a problem with Holocaust deniers?

It's illegal in some places I believe. But then you can also get punished for insulting the queen or whatnot.

Monarchy in general sucks and all kings and queens are jerks. Now go ahead and punish me.

I'll leave that to Nappy.

[Napoleon Ier]

Surely, there's nothing wrong with holocaust denial, but rather something wrong with admitting it happened -- and saying it should be done again. No...?

[Snorri1234]

Surely, there's nothing wrong with holocaust denial, but rather something wrong with admitting it happened -- and saying it should be done again. No...?

Well I do think the denial is bad when it is done in schools. I mean like islamic schools in western society, or public schools where they don't talk about it because it might offend the islamic students.

A person can certainly be of the opinion it never happened, but not spread it in such places.

[Juan_Bottom]

Surely, there's nothing wrong with holocaust denial

Let me stop you right there if I may,.....

There isn't, unless you lived through it.

[Napoleon Ier]

Surely, there's nothing wrong with holocaust denial

Let me stop you right there if I may,.....

There isn't, unless you lived through it.

No, that would make you an amnesiac, not a bad person.

[Juan_Bottom]

Surely, there's nothing wrong with holocaust denial

Let me stop you right there if I may,.....

There isn't, unless you lived through it.

No, that would make you an amnesiac, not a bad person.

Lol, I wasn't very clear, my bad....

I ment to deny the holocaust to someone who lived through it.

[Napoleon Ier]

Surely, there's nothing wrong with holocaust denial

Let me stop you right there if I may,.....

There isn't, unless you lived through it.

No, that would make you an amnesiac, not a bad person.

Lol, I wasn't very clear, my bad....

I ment to deny the holocaust to someone who lived through it.

Alright, ut then that would make you adly misinformed, not a bad person. And fundamentally, in a Free society,youshould be able to say whatever you like, regardless of offence caused to others. The right to Free Speech is a natural one, that tonot being offended isn't.

[InkL0sed]

Of course there's something wrong with Holocaust denial. It implies that the Jews don't deserve Israel, and it was all actually part of a massive conspiracy to oppress Palestinians.

It's similar to saying you're "for states' rights" in the US. It's really a code word for being a racist.

[joecoolfrog]

Does Europe have a problem with Holocaust deniers?

It's illegal in some places I believe. But then you can also get punished for insulting the queen or whatnot.

Monarchy in general sucks and all kings and queens are jerks. Now go ahead and punish me.

A bit of an extreme generalisation I would say, monarchs are fine providing they are only a figurehead and dont weald any real power. Thailand is a country I know quite well and the King ( who has been on the throne for about 60 years I think ) has been a major stabilising force in a country where the military have never been slow to usurp the democratic process.
The monarchy in that country is absolutely adored and there is certainly no freedom of speech regarding them, any criticism whatsoever is subject to a period of at least 7 years imprisonment and the law is enforced regularly, a German national just got 10 years for a drunken rant against the royal family. Oddly enough the Thais find this perfectly acceptable because in their mind the King is above criticism, I have seen more than one loudmouth tourist get badly beaten by a mob because of an ill considered remark. I would say that freedom of speech is a noble sentiment but can be dangerous if the subject matter is volatile and you are unsure about the reaction it may provoke.

[joecoolfrog]

Of course there's something wrong with Holocaust denial. It implies that the Jews don't deserve Israel, and it was all actually part of a massive conspiracy to oppress Palestinians.

It's similar to saying you're "for states' rights" in the US. It's really a code word for being a racist.

No I agree with Snoori and Nappy on this, holocaust denial is based on ignorance and is best countered by firm historical facts. There is a problem with it being taught for propaganda purposes,notably in certain Islamic schools, but banning such teaching lends it credibility and would simply drive it underground.

[suggs]

Of course there's something wrong with Holocaust denial. It implies that the Jews don't deserve Israel, and it was all actually part of a massive conspiracy to oppress Palestinians.

It's similar to saying you're "for states' rights" in the US. It's really a code word for being a racist.

Yes, but you can't stop people saying it by law. Then you become what you are fighting against, a fascist.
Let them deny the holocaust -its very easy to prove it happened. Have more faith in people's ability to logically reason based on the (massive amounts of) evidence.

[jiminski]

Of course there's something wrong with Holocaust denial. It implies that the Jews don't deserve Israel, and it was all actually part of a massive conspiracy to oppress Palestinians.

It's similar to saying you're "for states' rights" in the US. It's really a code word for being a racist.

No I agree with Snoori and Nappy on this, holocaust denial is based on ignorance and is best countered by firm historical facts. There is a problem with it being taught for propaganda purposes,notably in certain Islamic schools, but banning such teaching lends it credibility and would simply drive it underground.

I agree completely.

With strangled debate, ideas grow beyond their worth. Also there may be elements of 'truth' in aspects of the denial.

Naturally it was a very real and systematic attempt at genocide but was much of the starvation and death due to a movement of food to the 'more worthy' German soldiers?
It seems rather a distasteful and moot point in the circumstance, however it 'may' paint a fuller picture with regards the holistic condemnation of German society and it's slavish pursuit of Nazism.

Due to the Taboo of such possible reality, the absence of real exposure can be used to make something more substantial and imply a more complete conspiracy of propaganda.

[InkL0sed]

I never said it should be banned... I guess I should have clarified I was just arguing against Nappy's statement that denying the Holocaust doesn't make you a "bad person".

I might add that I've always thought that banning talk of any kind of crazy conspiracy only validates said conspiracy.

[Juan_Bottom]

Of course there's something wrong with Holocaust denial. It implies that the Jews don't deserve Israel, and it was all actually part of a massive conspiracy to oppress Palestinians.

It's similar to saying you're "for states' rights" in the US. It's really a code word for being a racist.

Huh? Saying that you are 'for states rights' is a synonym for being racist? I have never heard that before.... I AM for states rights over the federal government, but I am no racist. Now I am upset. Everyone I know must think that I am a racist.......

And I see your point about denial, but the palistinians have a point too. They are the ones being oppressed(I almost want to say genocided) today. You can't deny one to justify the other.

[InkL0sed]

Of course there's something wrong with Holocaust denial. It implies that the Jews don't deserve Israel, and it was all actually part of a massive conspiracy to oppress Palestinians.

It's similar to saying you're "for states' rights" in the US. It's really a code word for being a racist.

Huh? Saying that you are 'for states rights' is a synonym for being racist? I have never heard that before.... I AM for states rights over the federal government, but I am no racist. Now I am upset. Everyone I know must think that I am a racist.......

And I see your point about denial, but the palistinians have a point too. They are the ones being oppressed(I almost want to say genocided) today. You can't deny one to justify the other.

States' rights in and of itself isn't a racist idea, but when a politician says they are for them, you know that isn't what they are talking about.

About the Palestinians... let's not even go there.

[jiminski]

I never said it should be banned... I guess I should have clarified I was just arguing against Nappy's statement that denying the Holocaust doesn't make you a "bad person".

I might add that I've always thought that banning talk of any kind of crazy conspiracy only validates said conspiracy.

I understand, and my point was more a stand alone one, with no research into the earlier debate at all! (sterling commendation of my credibility!)

[Juan_Bottom]

States' rights in and of itself isn't a racist idea, but when a politician says they are for them, you know that isn't what they are talking about.

Holy crap!.......... I am so disappointed in America right now..........

[InkL0sed]

States' rights in and of itself isn't a racist idea, but when a politician says they are for them, you know that isn't what they are talking about.

Holy crap!.......... I am so disappointed in America right now..........

Hardly the worst thing about our country's past or present...

EDIT: Also, read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

[Napoleon Ier]

Of course there's something wrong with Holocaust denial. It implies that the Jews don't deserve Israel,

The Jews don't 'deserve' Israel, and even if they did, it certainly wouldn't be on account of the holocaust, since the seizure of Palestinian land from people who took no part in the Holocaust is a punishment of the innocent on account of the guilty, a clear contravention of pararagraphs 2 and 3, Sixth Schedule for the Standing Orders on British Democracy.

and it was all actually part of a massive conspiracy to oppress Palestinians.

No, it wouldn't, since it could very well only imply that based on a misguided premise, an unsound and invalid conclusion was made by people who believed that the Jews did indeed 'deserve' Israel, and that the oppression of the Palestinians was an incidental a by-product of the aforesaid misinformed logical consturct.

It's similar to saying you're "for states' rights" in the US. It's really a code word for being a racist.

Oh, but if you're for States' rights anywhere elkse in the world you're not necessarily a racist? Therefore by definition, Libertarians residing within the US are all racists? Is supporting States' rights therefore a form of 'hate-speech' that should be banned,in your opinion? Is anyone who supports regional rights in their own country and then comes to the US automatcally a raacist, regardless of his actual beliefs on the hierarchy of races? Is there any logical a priori proof which would demonstrate the validity of above premise based on a common definition of "racist"? I'll gove you a hint: no, there isn't.

[suggs]

Free Wisconsin!

[Napoleon Ier]

Surely forcing people to accept the holocaust or pigeon-holing them as bad persons in what is effectively a crass and sweeping generalization is irrational, since it's perfectly feasible that they wouldn't have had the proper evidence duly brought forward to aid them to make a reasoned conclusion.

[suggs]

You don't force them. Just show 'em the evidence.
Then they will know it happened.