Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[Gregrios]

Is this where I'm suppose to ignore the fact that all you're doing is being patronizing?

No, this is where you use that dusty brain of yours and actually think before you post.


Free will means we can decide what we want and think ourselves, and god can't interfere.

So if God showed up at my party or something, it still wouldn't make free will void because he can't actually interfere with it. So therefore free will isn't taken away when he shows himself, because people can still do whatever the hell they want.

I can't figure out who it is you're talking to.

.... cause it certainly isn't me.

It certainly is, you pitifull excuse for a human.

Your intelligence is shining brighter than ever.

No but seriously.

[Snorri1234]

Your intelligence is shining brighter than ever.

No but seriously.

Why thank you.


I still want to see some actual reasons as to why god announcing himself is going to invalidate free will, other than you saying so. It's not that I think "BECUZ I SAYS SO!" is not a valid reason, but somehow philosophers and scientists generally think it's a very convincing reason.

[Gregrios]

Your intelligence is shining brighter than ever.

No but seriously.

Why thank you.


I still want to see some actual reasons as to why god announcing himself is going to invalidate free will.

I don't know why you keep directing this question at me as I said no such thing.

If you check you'll realize that it's only you who is dealing with absolutes.

[jonesthecurl]

If you check you'll realize that it's only you who is dealing with absolutes.

Saif the guy with "perfect faith" as a part of his sig...

[Snorri1234]

How would it take away our free will if god would prove beyond all doubt that he exists?

.... because free will is God's way of filtering out the insincere from entering the kingdom of Heaven.

Pretty close though.

[TheLucas]

I'm not going to take the time to read all the posts in here but I do have a question. If Adam & Eve chose to sin then why do we get blamed for it? I wasn't there in the garden and I didn't eat any fruit.

[Gregrios]

How would it take away our free will if god would prove beyond all doubt that he exists?

.... because free will is God's way of filtering out the insincere from entering the kingdom of Heaven.

Pretty close though.

How's that phrase go?

Oh yeah.Close but no cigar!

Point proven. Therefore I win!

[johnnyrotten]

How would it take away our free will if god would prove beyond all doubt that he exists?

.... because free will is God's way of filtering out the insincere from entering the kingdom of Heaven.

Pretty close though.

How's that phrase go?

Oh yeah.Close but no cigar!

Point proven. Therefore I win!

Prove god exists.

[Gregrios]

How would it take away our free will if god would prove beyond all doubt that he exists?

.... because free will is God's way of filtering out the insincere from entering the kingdom of Heaven.

Pretty close though.

How's that phrase go?

Oh yeah.Close but no cigar!

Point proven. Therefore I win!

Prove god exists.

Thanks for the offer but I don't need to.

[johnnyrotten]

Pretty close though.

How's that phrase go?

Oh yeah.Close but no cigar!

Point proven. Therefore I win!

Prove god exists.

Thanks for the offer but I don't need to.

Go on.

[Gregrios]

I'm not going to take the time to read all the posts in here but I do have a question. If Adam & Eve chose to sin then why do we get blamed for it? I wasn't there in the garden and I didn't eat any fruit.

It's because we're all branches of the same root.

When Adam and Eve sinned they let an evil loose onto the world by which it was too late to change.

If Jesus was the first man created on earth, we wouldn't even know what sin is.

In simple terms: Sin brought sin into the world.

[MeDeFe]

Let's clear this up once and for all. At some point CC asked the following question.

2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

To which xerro answered

2. God gave us free will, so wars and what not arnt because of his will. its because of our choices..... so if he got involved in our wars, then he'd be taking away our free will which is what he gave us to begin with....

I then inquired the following,

How would it take away our free will if god would prove beyond all doubt that he exists?

hoping for a more detailed account, unfortunately xerro never returned to answer. But Gregrios did and he wrote

.... because free will is God's way of filtering out the insincere from entering the kingdom of Heaven.

So, Gregrios, you implicitly agreed with the statement that god displaying himself to humanity and proving his existence would eliminate free will, now I ask you, do you stand by that agreement or do you wish to modify your statement? Either way I would appreciate a clarification regarding your thoughts on the subject, preferably with smilies kept to a minimum.

[Gregrios]

I was merely pointing out the importance of free will.

[MeDeFe]

I was merely pointing out the importance of free will.

ok, so free will is important and god proving himself would not remove it. So... why doesn't he? Why leave people in the dark instead of making sure everyone knows he exists and then let them decide what to do about it?

[rocky mountain]

faith...

[Gregrios]

I was merely pointing out the importance of free will.

ok, so free will is important and god proving himself would not remove it. So... why doesn't he? Why leave people in the dark instead of making sure everyone knows he exists and then let them decide what to do about it?

If God proved himself, do you really think that some people would choose hell over heaven?

Sure, free will would still exist but it would no longer serve as a filtering tool.

[MeDeFe]

I was merely pointing out the importance of free will.

ok, so free will is important and god proving himself would not remove it. So... why doesn't he? Why leave people in the dark instead of making sure everyone knows he exists and then let them decide what to do about it?

If God proved himself, do you really think that some people would choose hell over heaven?

Would it be a bad thing if they didn't? As I see it, if god exists (and is the christian god) he lets us act on no evidence about him at all but at the same time expects us to conform to some very absurd wishes, like accepting his son who is himself as our saviour so our sins, which stem from a metaphoric story about two people eating fruit they weren't supposed to, can be forgiven, just to name the main one. "Weird" doesn't even begin to cover it.
And as I asked, why would it be a bad thing if more people chose to live their lives with a mindset in accordance with this god's wishes, if all it takes is positive proof that he actually does exist?

[Gregrios]

I was merely pointing out the importance of free will.

ok, so free will is important and god proving himself would not remove it. So... why doesn't he? Why leave people in the dark instead of making sure everyone knows he exists and then let them decide what to do about it?

If God proved himself, do you really think that some people would choose hell over heaven?

Would it be a bad thing if they didn't? As I see it, if god exists (and is the christian god) he lets us act on no evidence about him at all but at the same time expects us to conform to some very absurd wishes, like accepting his son who is himself as our saviour so our sins, which stem from a metaphoric story about two people eating fruit they weren't supposed to, can be forgiven, just to name the main one. "Weird" doesn't even begin to cover it.
And as I asked, why would it be a bad thing if more people chose to live their lives with a mindset in accordance with this god's wishes, if all it takes is positive proof that he actually does exist?

I'm not going to participate in this dicussion in which a complete circle is being made back to my original statement.

This truly shows your desperation in trying to find a flaw in what I'm saying.

While doing so you're only discrediting yourself.

[johnnyrotten]

I was merely pointing out the importance of free will.

ok, so free will is important and god proving himself would not remove it. So... why doesn't he? Why leave people in the dark instead of making sure everyone knows he exists and then let them decide what to do about it?

If God proved himself, do you really think that some people would choose hell over heaven?

Would it be a bad thing if they didn't? As I see it, if god exists (and is the christian god) he lets us act on no evidence about him at all but at the same time expects us to conform to some very absurd wishes, like accepting his son who is himself as our saviour so our sins, which stem from a metaphoric story about two people eating fruit they weren't supposed to, can be forgiven, just to name the main one. "Weird" doesn't even begin to cover it.
And as I asked, why would it be a bad thing if more people chose to live their lives with a mindset in accordance with this god's wishes, if all it takes is positive proof that he actually does exist?

I'm not going to participate in taking this dicussion in which a complete circle is being made back to my original statement.

This truly shows your desperation in trying to find a flaw in what I'm saying.

While doing so you're only discrediting yourself.

If you believe in heaven/hell/etc., then you obviously want to go to heaven. What if, despite leading your life by the good book, you end up in hell after you die? Would you be a bit pissed off at the big man?

[Juan_Bottom]

I was merely pointing out the importance of free will.

ok, so free will is important and god proving himself would not remove it. So... why doesn't he? Why leave people in the dark instead of making sure everyone knows he exists and then let them decide what to do about it?

If God proved himself, do you really think that some people would choose hell over heaven?

Would it be a bad thing if they didn't? As I see it, if god exists (and is the christian god) he lets us act on no evidence about him at all but at the same time expects us to conform to some very absurd wishes, like accepting his son who is himself as our saviour so our sins, which stem from a metaphoric story about two people eating fruit they weren't supposed to, can be forgiven, just to name the main one. "Weird" doesn't even begin to cover it.
And as I asked, why would it be a bad thing if more people chose to live their lives with a mindset in accordance with this god's wishes, if all it takes is positive proof that he actually does exist?

I'm not going to participate in taking this dicussion in which a complete circle is being made back to my original statement.

This truly shows your desperation in trying to find a flaw in what I'm saying.

While doing so you're only discrediting yourself.

I don't think you behave this way because you have no stamina for debate. I am now convinced that you are a troll.

[Gregrios]

You're welcome to your own opinion.

[MeDeFe]

Well, but tell me. Why would it be a bad thing if more people chose to go to heaven?

[Frigidus]

Well, but tell me. Why would it be a bad thing if more people chose to go to heaven?

Because then it loses that whole secret club appeal. No non-believers allowed!

[Backglass]

Well, but tell me. Why would it be a bad thing if more people chose to go to heaven?

Because then it loses that whole secret club appeal. No non-believers allowed!

Exactly. It's all about the "club" and the smug superiority of it's members looking down on those who, in their mind, don't belong.

I was riding my motorcycle on some back roads near my town over the weekend and passed the entrance to a Buddhist Monastery. Turns out it has been there for decades and I had no idea it was even there. Do you know WHY I never knew? Because the followers of THAT particular religion don't make it their business to force their teachings into public schools, litigate their texts to be hung in public court houses or generally attempt to force their belief's down everyones else's throats whether they like it or not.

They do whatever they do and don't intentionally bother anyone else and that's fine by me. Go nuts...just don't force my kids to do it or me to pay for it.

[heavycola]

I was merely pointing out the importance of free will.

ok, so free will is important and god proving himself would not remove it. So... why doesn't he? Why leave people in the dark instead of making sure everyone knows he exists and then let them decide what to do about it?

If God proved himself, do you really think that some people would choose hell over heaven?

Sure, free will would still exist but it would no longer serve as a filtering tool.

Ah! Free will is a filtering tool. Brilliant! We must rewrite the theological textbooks at once!

eriously, if god appeared in the sky and ordered me to start effing well praying if i wanted to get into heaven, i'd be on my knees faster than a conflicted altarboy. Maybe heaven is limited in size, like Oahu.

But actually what we have here is the smug, 'i'm chosen and you're not' hubris at the root of evangelical xianity. It's painfully obvious. One of my favourite parts of the rapture ready crowd (i'm using this as a comparison, i don;t know whether or not you believe it) is the way everyone who believes in the rapture knows they are going to be whisked up! None of them have any personal doubts. They are chosen, the rest aren't. Presumably that makes them feel pretty special. Same thing here.