Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[Gregrios]

I forget the question do to your desperation of your own opinion.






Did I miss anything Curly?

[Dancing Mustard]

What the hell are you talking about? That made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[heavycola]

Agreed. Huh?

This is all written down - if you forget the question, you can always read it again. Here:

You said free will is a filter for the insincere. That if god revealed himself, he wouldn't be able to tell who is insincere and who isn't. My question is, why? He knows everything, right?

[jonesthecurl]

I forget the question do to your desperation of your own opinion.






Did I miss anything Curly?

I stand in awe of your debating abilities.

[jonesthecurl]

What the hell are you talking about? That made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

look at what I said about what his answer would be.

[Dancing Mustard]

Gregrios has three (maybe four) resorts when in difficulty:
(i) You are entitled to your opinion (then shuts up)
(ii)Wow you're getting desperate (then shuts up)
(iii)Forgets you asked the question (e.g. Does the earth orbit the sun or vice-versa)
(iv)added to or substitued for one of the above,

That deserves to be quoted because of the sheer amount of truth it contained.

Gregrios... you just ran onto an outstretched fist. Commiserations.

[Juan_Bottom]

He didn't quite max out the smilies though........

He must just be getting warmed up........

[jonesthecurl]

No he just can't count.

[Gregrios]

What the hell are you talking about? That made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Due to your lack of observation your mind has warped into the realm in which you roam.

[MeDeFe]

Gregrios, would you please respond to my post from a while back? I really want to understand how you're thinking and am not being intentionally patronizing, I don't know if my post came across as such. If it did it was really not my intention.

[Snorri1234]

What the hell are you talking about? That made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Do to your lack of observation your mind has warped into the realm in which you roam.

Do?

[Gregrios]

What the hell are you talking about? That made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Due to your lack of observation your mind has warped into the realm in which you roam.

Do?

Better?

[Dancing Mustard]

No.

Despite now being correctly spelled; it still makes f*ck all sense.

[Gregrios]

No.

Despite now being correctly spelled; it still makes f*ck all sense.

I sooooooo own you!

[MeDeFe]

Greg, are you going to continue trolling or will you answer my earlier questions? I for one meant them quite seriously.

[Gregrios]

Greg, are you going to continue trolling or will you answer my earlier questions? I for one meant them quite seriously.

What question is it now?

Oh wait. Let me guess.

Was it, "Are dogs & cats of the same species?" or was it, "Does God cause hangnails?"

Ahh, I give up.

What was the question?

[jonesthecurl]

Gregrios has three (maybe four) resorts when in difficulty:
(i) You are entitled to your opinion (then shuts up)
(ii)Wow you're getting desperate (then shuts up)
(iii)Forgets you asked the question (e.g. Does the earth orbit the sun or vice-versa)
(iv)added to or substitued for one of the above,

bump

[joecoolfrog]

Greg
I thank you for consistently displaying the vast intelect required of the average religious fundamentalist.

[MeDeFe]

Greg, are you going to continue trolling or will you answer my earlier questions? I for one meant them quite seriously.

What question is it now?

Oh wait. Let me guess.

Was it, "Are dogs & cats of the same species?" or was it, "Does God cause hangnails?"

Ahh, I give up.

What was the question?

I was referring to this post, it's on page 103

ok, so as you see it, faith is necessary for going to heaven, accepting god and obeying his commands is not enough. (I'm not going into the whole love-thing just yet, I know there's that as well)

To be almost brutally honest, I don't even know what this faith is really supposed to be. To me it looks like something along the lines of "My parents have told me god exists and they would never lie to me, everyone at the church has told me god exists and they should know what they're talking about, everyone I know believes in god. God has to exist, why else would everyone believe in him?" If you were to substitute 'Australia' for 'god', and 'geography class' for 'church' it wouldn't sound bad at all, but god is so improbable judging from what we can observe and the stories about him are so full of contradictions that I think it's something of a miracle that people believe in god at all.

Does that make me insincere? I don't see how, it just makes me a person who doesn't accept everything I'm told without questioning it. (And supposedly god is responsible for me being that way as well) For all you know everyone would be sincere if god were to prove his existence. Right now this distinction between 'sincere' and 'insincere' seems to be one of "believe what you're told about god without questioning it" and "ask inconvenient questions about what you're told about god". And btw, isn't god supposedly omniscient? Wouldn't he be able to tell whether a person is sincere or not anyway?

And wouldn't it be a short-term problem of people who previously did not believe? I mean, one generation later the proof will be there for everyone to evaluate from birth onwards. They could hardly be accused of being turncoats. And if it's such a big problem, well, just reincarnate everyone who wasn't already a believer at the time of the Proof and give them a fair chance or something.


As for your example, how about letting both of them in? Maybe cut down a little on the rations and draw lots about who gets to sleep on the couch and it'll work.

There are actually several questions there, I'd really appreciate it if you could try and answer them all.

[dewey316]

MeDeFe, I will at least reply here, so you don't get left just sitting there, if you were really wanting an answer. Although I am probably not the guy you wanted an answer from. . I also don't represent anyone other than myself, so take that for what it is worth, what I say, doesn't speak for anyone else.

ok, so as you see it, faith is necessary for going to heaven, accepting god and obeying his commands is not enough. (I'm not going into the whole love-thing just yet, I know there's that as well)

I am not sure where you are going with this. Obeying his commands, is not really any part of salvation. The obediance is a manifistation. Our actions are mearly a result of our thoughts, beleifs and emotions. This is why James points out that it isn't our deeds that save us. You see this in many people who accept Christ, there isn't always an immediate change in all their actions, but as you see people really start beleiving and spending time reading/praying/etc, you see the actions change. As for the acceptance, I am not so sure how you could accept God, and not have faith. I think the two are linked. You see, faith is defined as "A) allegiance to duty or a person B) belief and trust in and loyalty to God, (2): complete trust". I am going ot leave this here, since the rest of your stuff was also on faith, I hope to cover the rest as I keep going.

To be almost brutally honest, I don't even know what this faith is really supposed to be. To me it looks like something along the lines of "My parents have told me god exists and they would never lie to me, everyone at the church has told me god exists and they should know what they're talking about, everyone I know believes in god. God has to exist, why else would everyone believe in him?" If you were to substitute 'Australia' for 'god', and 'geography class' for 'church' it wouldn't sound bad at all, but god is so improbable judging from what we can observe and the stories about him are so full of contradictions that I think it's something of a miracle that people believe in god at all.

That is not faith in God at all, that is faith in your parents, teachers, preacher, or whoever. As a Christian, if you do not question what is taught in classes, or from the pulpit, then you are putting your faith in the wrong thing. Assuming that all Christians only beleive because their parents told them so, is rather insulting. You see, thing is, that when you start seeing the personable God, you start to question the stuff that your teachers, or your friends, or the school books told you. I have met enough people, and seen enough things in my life, that right or wrong, true or false, there is something about the words of Jesus, that have tha abilty to change peoples lifes. I think that is what the faith is all about.

Does that make me insincere? I don't see how, it just makes me a person who doesn't accept everything I'm told without questioning it. (And supposedly god is responsible for me being that way as well) For all you know everyone would be sincere if god were to prove his existence. Right now this distinction between 'sincere' and 'insincere' seems to be one of "believe what you're told about god without questioning it" and "ask inconvenient questions about what you're told about god". And btw, isn't god supposedly omniscient? Wouldn't he be able to tell whether a person is sincere or not anyway?

Just as I said before, insincere no, it means you are inteligent, and capable of questioning. That is a good thing. Blindly accepting is not good, in fact much of what is preached in the NT, is very much telling people to question what they are told, and to test it against what God says. The question comes down to what you test it against. That my friend, is something that I can't answer for you. We all have different berameters, so to say. My barameter is much of my own experiances, what I have seen, what I have lived through. Under that test, it is pretty easy for me to say without a doubt, that there is a least a power in this world, that is beyond science, and beyond what human ability.

God is ominscient, and he is the only one who can tell who is sincere or not, when it comes to their faith. I sure as heck cannot tell you about Gregrios faith nor yours.

And wouldn't it be a short-term problem of people who previously did not believe? I mean, one generation later the proof will be there for everyone to evaluate from birth onwards. They could hardly be accused of being turncoats. And if it's such a big problem, well, just reincarnate everyone who wasn't already a believer at the time of the Proof and give them a fair chance or something.

I am not sure what you are getting at here, a little more explanation, and I will sure try to give you something (but what I give you, is worth about what you paid for it. )

As for your example, how about letting both of them in? Maybe cut down a little on the rations and draw lots about who gets to sleep on the couch and it'll work.

I am going to assume, this is about just letting everyone into heaven, and how it is that God chooses who goes into heaven? If it is, I will do my best to give you something there, it will be a very long post, it gets into a quite a lot of theology, and so forth. In a nutsell, God cannot be in the presence of evil, he gave us and the angles the gift of choice, through that choice, sin entered the world, sperating us from God. The only way back in the presence of God, is to be sinless, which is impossible, for this God gave us a path in which we can choose to accept that grace, and that will allow us our sins to be clensed, allowing us back in Gods presence. (way over simplified, so much so, that it probably doesn't answer anything, but I didn't want to just leave you with nothing).

So, now you at least go something answered, maybe not well, maybe not up to your standards.

--John

[jonesthecurl]

God is ominscient, and he is the only one who can tell who is sincere or not, when it comes to their faith. I sure as heck cannot tell you about Gregrios faith nor yours.

But Gregrios implied that God couldn't tell if you were sincere.

[MeDeFe]

dewey, check page 103 where I first posted that, I also quoted the post I was replying to there, reading that one should clear up a lot of things you asked about.

[Backglass]

[alyzMAMA]

to tell you the truth i believe in GOD and JESUS because i feel in my heart that there is a great thing out there and we are blinded by other people, especially the government in my words. i do not know alot of what happened and is going to happen but i guess until i see with my own eyes or when we die we will all find out what is to come...

[HapSmo19]

....or not.