Is God really Just?

[Juan_Bottom]

"Most people are Atheists"? Hmm must be a European thing, atheism is a small minority in the US.

Way to misquote someone and use their statement out of context Jay. For shame.

[suggs]

Sadly, Jay is on the right track for once.
There has been a growth in cult worshipping and general mumbo jumbo in the last few years.

Partly inspired by 9/11 and people being shit scared no doubt.
But i dunno the real reason.
The environmentalists haven't helped much -they've convinced people that human beings have helped destroy "Mother Earth". Partly true.
But people have drawn the erroneous conclusion that human rationality, the power of reason, is not to be trusted:
"What a cock up we made of the 20th century, we must turn to God/Drugs/Hippie Zen nonsense to make a better world."

What they fail to realise is that logic, and reason, is the only answer -its what gives us hospitals, social services, education, leisure -all the things that distinguish us from the animals.
Hopefully this religious resurgence will die down soon -they usually do.

[jay_a2j]

"Most people are Atheists"? Hmm must be a European thing, atheism is a small minority in the US.

Way to misquote someone and use their statement out of context Jay. For shame.

Most people are atheists because they look at religions, look at history and think "That doesn't make sense"

Misquote eh? I don't think so.

[Neoteny]

"Most people are Atheists"? Hmm must be a European thing, atheism is a small minority in the US.

Way to misquote someone and use their statement out of context Jay. For shame.

Most people are atheists because they look at religions, look at history and think "That doesn't make sense"

Misquote eh? I don't think so.

I think I see a Tzor entry in the making...

[suggs]

We can only hope not.

[jay_a2j]

I think I see a Tzor entry in the making...

What is that?

[PLAYER57832]

How is it that Cain killing Abel was the first sin? Were not Adam and Eve instructed by God not to eat from the tree of knowledge? Is not disobeying God, sin? I have never heard the first sin being that of Cain, and I've been to many different churches.

No, I was tired, but it is also semantics. Disobedience was sin, but what is talked about there is a bit more than that. Eve and Adam were cast out because they had knowledge of good and evil ... "like us" it says (which is generally taken to mean the angles and so forth). Specifically, they knew that they should cover their bodies, etc. Later, God told Cain that he must master sin ... and he did not. Therefore additional penalties were brought.

It is correct to say that Eve brought sin ... and it is also correct to say that she brought knowledge of sin... and it is correct to say that Cain brought sin to earth/mankind as well.

[
Please note that maybe the vast majority of Christians in your church believe that Evolution and Genesis are consistent, but the mainstream Church rejects this, and for good reason. God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth", Evolution teaches that we evolved from other life. THIS is hardly "consistent". Speak for yourself, I accept Genesis and reject evolution. As do countless other Christians.

A list of the churches that DISAGREE with YOU:
The Roman Catholic Church
The Evangelical Lutheran Church AND the MIssourie Synod Lutheran Church
The Presbyterian Church
The Methodist Church
The Episcopalian Church (world wide -- they are split over homosexuality, but NOT evolution!!)
Jews (ALL sects)


Those are just a "few" (there are more!) .... and you might note that they represent the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Christians worldwide.

Sorry.

[Neoteny]

I think I see a Tzor entry in the making...

What is that?

A discussion on sentence structure. It seems he might have passed it up though.

[jay_a2j]

I think I see a Tzor entry in the making...

What is that?

A discussion on sentence structure. It seems he might have passed it up though.

Ya, he said "Most people are atheists..." Not "Most people that are atheist..."


And I think he meant it the way he wrote it. No misquote or out of context there.

[jay_a2j]

Those are just a "few" (there are more!) .... and you might note that they represent the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Christians worldwide.

Sorry.

Too bad Christianity is not a Democracy eh? If you are correct with that list, is proves nothing more than how bad false doctrine has saturated the Church. And the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture is another fine example.

[Neoteny]

I think I see a Tzor entry in the making...

What is that?

A discussion on sentence structure. It seems he might have passed it up though.

Ya, he said "Most people are atheists..." Not "Most people that are atheist..."


And I think he meant it the way he wrote it. No misquote or out of context there.

I don't think he did, but I don't know that it really matters at this point.

[PLAYER57832]

Player, your (too long to be a coherent, stylish argument, but never mind) argument is basically "we don't know God's justice, and He's Justice Is better than human justice".

Not at all. Human justice is individual. God's justice is overall and for all time.

That maybe true. But human justice says murder is wrong. If God is Ok with that, if he has some sort of cunning "end justifies the means masterplan", then I want nothing to do with it.
His justice is evil. f*ck off God, you murdering bastard.

Actually, human justice doesn't say "murder is wrong", not really. God gave us the rule that we should not murder. Some expand that to "thou shall not kill ... at all". Others find all sorts of reasons why killing is OK .. from Augustine's "just war" to the police who shoots an escaping criminal to even some wackos who think certain folks are OK to kill for all kinds of reason.

As far as the rest ... well, humans are the ones who do these things. We are the ones who chose. God gave us the option.... and, even after we decided, he still gave us alternatives ... a kind of "safety net".

It is not a matter of "the ends justify the means". It is a matter that neither the means nor the end would exist else. We humans are not puppets... so we have consequences of evil.

And I am not trying to convince anyone to think as I do, just answering the question from a largely Christian perspective.

[PLAYER57832]

Those are just a "few" (there are more!) .... and you might note that they represent the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Christians worldwide.

Sorry.

Too bad Christianity is not a Democracy eh? If you are correct with that list, is proves nothing more than how bad false doctrine has saturated the Church.

No, it means that the church is about TRUTH and not lies. The Bible says that God created the universe, it is not and never was intended to be a scientific document. Evolution simply tells how God did it. They are not in conflict.

.... every argument denying evolution and proporting to "prove" your creationist views is just plain false. God is not against truth. People are and you gain nothing by denying it. If you bothered to actually study what you think you condemn, you would see this. BUT, of course, you cannot be bothered, because you "know"

And the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture is another fine example.

Pre-tribulation rapture???

No, that is not in the Bible ... and the ones teaching that are often the very same ones teaching strict Creationism.

[jay_a2j]

Those are just a "few" (there are more!) .... and you might note that they represent the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Christians worldwide.

Sorry.

Too bad Christianity is not a Democracy eh? If you are correct with that list, is proves nothing more than how bad false doctrine has saturated the Church.

No, it means that the church is about TRUTH and not lies. The Bible says that God created the universe, it is not and never was intended to be a scientific document. Evolution simply tells how God did it. They are not in conflict.

.... every argument denying evolution and proporting to "prove" your creationist views is just plain false. God is not against truth. People are and you gain nothing by denying it. If you bothered to actually study what you think you condemn, you would see this. BUT, of course, you cannot be bothered, because you "know"

And the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture is another fine example.

Pre-tribulation rapture???

No, that is not in the Bible ... and the ones teaching that are often the very same ones teaching strict Creationism.

Wow, you really need to read Genesis again. God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth". Not evolved Adam from an ape. You are the one believing lies. There is a reason science cannot prove evolution, because it never happened. And be warned that many attend church but that does not make them Christian. Some "Christian" denominations support homosexuality, will you then support it, if it becomes the "norm" in Christian churches? If your understanding of scripture is based on "majority rules" without verifying the teaching in scripture, you may end up being a part of fulfilled prophecy..... "In those days many will be deceived, even the elect if that were possible".

[Juan_Bottom]

Wow, you really need to read Genesis again. God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth". Not evolved Adam from an ape. You are the one believing lies. There is a reason science cannot prove evolution, because it never happened.

JAY, we have been over this time and time again. And I've only been here since May. YOU ALWAYS LOSE THIS DEBATE. It doesn't matter how many times this is spoon-fed to you; Your rebuttal always ends up being "no." Stop talking because you're dumb. Geez. You'd never budge an inch.

And nothing is mentioned in the bible about evolution. Whoopity doo! What about all the other crap that happens, or has been discovered that isn't in the Bible? Pluto, for example. How the crap can you sit there and say that evolution couldn't be one of Gods tools? Because the Bible says the first creatures where created? Are you a complete retard? Geeeeez....

[FabledIntegral]

Created from dust? Amusing how some things are to be taken literally while others are not^^.

[Iliad]

If people were created from dust why is there still dust left?

[FabledIntegral]

There couldnt have been any dust if there was no man in the first place!

[Backglass]

"Most people are Atheists"? Hmm must be a European thing, atheism is a small minority in the US.

Millions of lemmings are still lemmings.

I would say it's more of a "eyes wide open" thing. Europeans are much more open minded about most topics I have found.

And one fact is certain. The number of people who call themselves atheists is growing rapidly as more & more people come to realize that the superstitions, rituals and fairy tales of an ancient people are just that...legend and lore...and one must not pretend to believe them in order to live a full, happy & good life.

[suggs]

What an interesting thread.

[PLAYER57832]

Wow, you really need to read Genesis again. God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth".

So does Evolution .. or just what do you think minerals, etc. are?

Not evolved Adam from an ape. You are the one believing lies.

The funny thing is that Evolution does not say man evolved from an ape either ... CHECK YOUR FACTS! And that about sums up the biggest reason why Creationists tend to be considered at best HIGHLY misinformed and more often, highly gullible to down right idiotic.

There is a reason science cannot prove evolution, because it never happened.

No, science almost never PROVES anything .. it generally disproves stuff ... and your version of Creationism HAS been disproven. Further, though there are legitimate questions about Evolution (big E, the theory) ... such as were dinosaurs warm blooded, did birds evolve directly from certain dinosaurs, exactly how old the earth is etc. There IS NO question about the foundations, the basics.

The FACTS are that evolution (small e) as a process HAS been proven. Natural selection DOES occur, but is not the only factor of Evolution (and Christians absolutely believe God is steering the whole enterprise!). Mutations absolutely occur. Species absolutely change over time and DO become other species, though quite slowly. The Earth is definitely millions of years old, not thousands.

And be warned that many attend church but that does not make them Christian.

You took the words out of my mouth ...

Some "Christian" denominations support homosexuality, will you then support it, if it becomes the "norm" in Christian churches?

When I am perfect, THEN and only then will I have the right to judge others. THAT is what the Bible says. Until then, the earthly concern is one of "will it harm me". Homosexuality does not.

If your understanding of scripture is based on "majority rules" without verifying the teaching in scripture, you may end up being a part of fulfilled prophecy..... "In those days many will be deceived, even the elect if that were possible".

[/quote]
No majority does not rule, but there are very good reasons WHY so many, many, many churches agree with evolution. It is REAL. Denying it is to deny truth. Period. There IS no other way around it. IF you bothered to research the "facts" you claim support your ideas, you would realize this. Instead, you wish to view the MOST NARROW possible interpretation.

Doesn't it strike you as just a little strange that, while you claim to adhere so strictly to the OLD TESTAMENT, that Jews - the keepers of the old testament since before Christ, the very folks who brought forth Christ and to whom we look for our historical precedence.. THEY have NEVER questioned this idea of evolution ...

YOUR ideas are limited to a very narrow group of supposedly "fundamentalist" Christians. You want to draw fine lines around words like "dust" and claim that the Genesis reference to "days" means a revolution of the our Earth (before Earth even existed!) instead of as bodies of time, an illustration for non-scientific humans. The concept of working, then resting. You want to take that reference as absolutely and utterly exact, yet, later, when the Bible talks of "sons of God" ... and talks of "Giants" THEN you decide it is OK to not be so literal.

You want to hold certain laws as above others, though the BIBLE, the new Testament tells us the law to hold ABOVE ALL ELSE is to "love thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself", NOT "judge everyone". I stand by my beliefs and my views. I stand among much good company.

If you wished to look critically at those who are proposing what you put forth, you will not find such stellar examples. You will find people putting forth hatred of others as if it were love, condemnation instead of acceptance and forgiveness. Judgement of others instead of self-criticism. Lies that are "OK" because in the end, they will be justified by truth (talk about hypocrisy!). THOSE are not the principals that Christ put forth.


YOu want evidence of evolution? Look around, watch the plants grow, LEARN about the relationships between animals, plants, the impacts that we, as humans have had on the Earth around us. Only God could have created such perfection (and yes, I know non Christians don't agree .. move on, please). To limit God to what YOU percieve, to what YOU think is to deny his majesty. How simple it would have been for him to simply snap his fingers and say "poof" here is everything. Except, that is not what actually happened. What did happen is a testament to God, not believing lies.

You want to try to challenge Evolution? FIRST understand it. I am not discussing it further in this thread. I am not going to repeat what has already been said in other threads again and again. You can either view truth or let yourself be decieved. Everything science puts forward as truth is PROVED. Creationism insists on falsities and lies.

[MeDeFe]

Player, you consistently reinforce my faith when it is wavering. My faith in humanity, that is.

[PLAYER57832]

"Most people are Atheists"? Hmm must be a European thing, atheism is a small minority in the US.

Millions of lemmings are still lemmings.

I would say it's more of a "eyes wide open" thing. Europeans are much more open minded about most topics I have found.

And one fact is certain. The number of people who call themselves atheists is growing rapidly as more & more come people come to realize that the superstitions, rituals and fairy tales of an ancient people are just that...legend and lore...and one must not pretend to believe them in order to live a full, happy & good life.

You don't have to believe anything.

But, while you dismiss or ideas as "fairy tales", people of faith are, as a group, happier, more likely to contribute positively to soceity and generally more likely to be "good neighbors". (based on the most comprehensive studies of the subject .. not my opinion)

Is religions perfect? No more (and no less) than the people who believe. BUT, for those who do believe, it feels a need.

Is religion necessary to be happy, to lead a "good" and "moral" life? Of course not. Nor does adherance to religion in any way gaurantee that those good things will take precedence.

What we REALLY need is to accept that people are different, have different ideas. As long as we each speak truthfully, as long as we agree to work together on issues of importance, what do our personal belief difference matter?

I HAVE been critical in this thread, but on 2 fronts. I DO ask a minimum of respect and tolerance for my beliefs, though definitely not acceptance. I WILL absolutely defend my beliefs (and do not consider defense of other beliefs to be "disrespectful" ... as long as they are reasonably worded). WITHIN Christianity ... I ask that anyone putting themselves forward not use the Bible falsely. So, I WILL come down pretty strongly on those who think they have the right to judge others, to claim that Genesis is inconsistant with Evolution and that Christians have "proven" Evolution false. It just is not true.

This is now a ways from the original question.

Like a lot of philisophical questions, there is no "set" answer. Folks will see what they wish, believe what they wish. We can debate, but there is no such thing as proof or real evidence in an issue such as this. There is only opinion.

My opinion is that humans are not "just", but that individuals strive to be and, to some extent can be "just". As a Christian, though, it is not "justice" that I strive for, it is understanding and forgiveness.

God is the ultimate of justice. It is from God that we get our very ideas of justice. BUT, what we understand are but shadows, pieces of God's reality. So, is God just? Yes, ultimately, but not necessarily in any way that we, as humans can really and truly understand.

Ultimately, we all have choices. We can look around at the evil in the world and grow depressed and angry. It will change nothing. OR we can look around and see the goodness that is the response to evil, see the help and aid that comes every day. If we look for those things, then we tend to be happier, AND are actually more likely to go out and behave in good ways ourselves.

So, the real question is not about justice. The real question is how you act from day to day.

[MeDeFe]

But, while you dismiss or ideas as "fairy tales", people of faith are, as a group, happier, more likely to contribute positively to soceity and generally more likely to be "good neighbors". (based on the most comprehensive studies of the subject .. not my opinion)

Religious people are also, empirically and historically, likelier to discriminate (even violently) against others based on characteristics like gender, lifestyle or faith. I am not saying religion is the sole cause for such behaviour, nor that such behaviour is to be found excusively among religous people, but religion has played and does still play a substantial role for causing and sustaining such behaviour within societies.
I do not deny your claims, but the effects of religion are not necessarily all positive either.

As for the "good neighbours", if those studies were from the comparatively religious USA the majority of people that were asked are not unlikely to be biased in favour of religious neighbours.

[Juan_Bottom]

Religious people are also, empirically and historically, likelier to discriminate (even violently) against others based on characteristics like gender, lifestyle or faith. I am not saying religion is the sole cause for such behaviour, nor that such behaviour is to be found excusively among religous people, but religion has played and does still play a substantial role for causing and sustaining such behaviour within societies.
I do not deny your claims, but the effects of religion are not necessarily all positive either.

I would say this ties into the negative correlation between religion and intelligence.

Plus there are a lot more of them than us, and so a lot more of them that are easier to control. It isn't a religion thing, it's a stupid people thing.