[Abandoned] - European Revolution

[yeti_c]

You still havent updated the title.

Gah - you could've done that!!!

C.

[gimil]

You still havent updated the title.

Gah - you could've done that!!!

C.

Read the sig!

[lt_oddball]

I see you won't do anything with my suggestion on stronger core regions and take revolutions to conquer a nation from there.

Too much map amendments I guess.


So then to another important thing:

How does a player conquer all the european provinces if you CANNOT attack a german province (Rheinland) from a french border province (Alsace) ?

Like always, you start with some scattered provinces and maybe one nation (or two ?!..or in grey?!). You focus on acquiring ONE nation, so you will LOSE the provinces in the other nations.
So now you have the French provinces..how or from where do you jump in the nations mini map ? From "centre" ?.. so then you have France and from there you may conquer other (bordering) nations on the minimap.
How is it acceptable that you can conquer Germany on the minimap and not having ANY german province yet ?
And how further ? do you attack Brandenburg FROM the German nation on the minimap ?
Then question: what is stopping you from doing these attack runs FROM THE START ?
This is contrary to the concept of FIRST rallying provinces within a nation, and THEN to take the war to other nations...

yeah, yeah, making a good gameconcept is difficult..

[yeti_c]

So then to another important thing:

How does a player conquer all the european provinces if you CANNOT attack a german province (Rheinland) from a french border province (Alsace) ?

Like always, you start with some scattered provinces and maybe one nation (or two ?!..or in grey?!). You focus on acquiring ONE nation, so you will LOSE the provinces in the other nations.
So now you have the French provinces..how or from where do you jump in the nations mini map ? From "centre" ?.. so then you have France and from there you may conquer other (bordering) nations on the minimap.
How is it acceptable that you can conquer Germany on the minimap and not having ANY german province yet ?
And how further ? do you attack Brandenburg FROM the German nation on the minimap ?
Then question: what is stopping you from doing these attack runs FROM THE START ?
This is contrary to the concept of FIRST rallying provinces within a nation, and THEN to take the war to other nations...

yeah, yeah, making a good gameconcept is difficult..

The main countries start as 5 neutral - thus it won't be worth your while to attack to them - until you've rallied your country...

Balancing your attacking strategy so you don't get eliminated in your other regions is upto you to control.

Any of the regions can attack the main country of course - that may lead you to being a sitting duck.

With regards to

How is it acceptable that you can conquer Germany on the minimap and not having ANY german province yet ?
And how further ? do you attack Brandenburg FROM the German nation on the minimap ?

You take the country first - then supress the revolting peasants underneath the country.

C.

[lt_oddball]

I gave it a thought:


The minimap countries are empty /grey from the beginning.
Once you have acquired ALL provinces of a nation the grey nation becomes your colour with army 1.
From then on, each turn you get +4 (or whatever see minimap for nations) AUTOMATICALLY on your nation in the minimap..you CANNOT add troops FROM the provinces TO the nation in the minimap or viceversa....
All renewal armies (numer of lands/3) can only be placed on your (border)provinces.
If you are the first nation, you can leisurely build up your international troopforce..with smaller nations (Holland+3) gaining less than bigger nations (France+4 or +5).
In order to attack the next country you CANNOT attack the next MINIMAP Nation directly..but you attack the single border province of that nation with ONLY the troops of the minimap nation. (so this requires a lot of thought on balancing bonustroops!! too much in the nationalbonus will make it a steamroller, too less bonus and provincial defenses are impenetrable!!) .

From that border province you start to conquer the other provinces of that neighbour nation..in which you now can transfer troops directly from your own provinces to the provinces of the other country.
Once you have conquered the next country provinces, that minimap nation turns into your colour with army 1. and the whole thing can start again .

what if two nations have built up +10 troops on the minimap nation and nation 1 penetrates the border province of nation 2 first; then the national troops of nation 2 become grey (as he has no more a complete nation)..and he cannot use them to counter attack the borderprovince of nation 1 (this IS realistic!!..Stalins troops at the border were incapable of moving into nazi territory in '41 ..due to shock at command levels..though there were enough soviet troops around..to give an example). Only if nation 2 player manages to retake and hold his nation 2 provinces, his colour AND +10 troops reappear and in the NEXT turn he can stage his invasion of nation 1.


Something like this is true to the spirit of your concept i guess



The difference with what you told me about your idea is that in my case you cannot just pick any province to attack once the minimap nation is taken.
It's a bit unfair/unrealistic that someone who has benelux or ireland first (small nation) can jump into Britain or FRance into any province with only 1 defense while 2 other players are still quarreling there for control in a different corner.
This benefits the smaller nations (again) ..which is unrealistic..

[yeti_c]

I gave it a thought:


The minimap countries are empty /grey from the beginning.
Once you have acquired ALL provinces of a nation the grey nation becomes your colour with army 1.
From then on, each turn you get +4 (or whatever see minimap fro nations) AUTOMATICALLY on your nation in the minimap..you CANNOT add troops FROM the provinces TO the nation in the minimap or viceversa....
All renewal armies (numer of lands/3) can only be placed on your (border)provinces.
If you are the first nation, you can leisurely build up your international troopforce..with smaller nations (Holland+3) gaining less than bigger nations (France+4 or +5).
In order to attack the next country you CANNOT attack the next MINIMAP Nation directly..but you attack the single border province of that nation with ONLY the troops of the minimap nation. (so this requires a lot of thought on balancing bonustroops!! too much in the nationalbonus will make it a steamroller, too less bonus and provincial defenses are impenetrable!!) .

From that border province you start to conquer the other provinces of that neighbour nation..in which you now can transfer troops directly from your own provinces to the provinces of the other country.
Once you have conquered the next country provinces, that minimap nation turns into your colour with army 1. and the whole thing can start again .

what if two nations have built up +10 troops on the minimap nation and nation 1 penetrates the border province of nation 2 first; then the national troops of nation 2 become grey (as he has no more a complete nation)..and he cannot use them to counter attack the borderprovince of nation 1 (this IS realistic!!..Stalins troops at the border were incapable of moving into nazi territory in '41 ..due to shock at command levels..though there were enough soviet troops around..to give an example). Only if nation 2 player manages to retake and hold his nation 2 provinces, his colour AND +10 troops reappear and in the NEXT turn he can stage his invasion of nation 1.


Something like this is true to the spirit of your concept i guess

Unfortunately - not a lot of this is possible with the current XML... And if it were possible - how would you explain the dynamics of it on the map?

What you describe sounds like a different game other than the fundementals on Risk... what we have made is a twist to the normal game - not a complete rewrite?

C.

[lt_oddball]

Unfortunately - not a lot of this is possible with the current XML... And if it were possible - how would you explain the dynamics of it on the map?

What you describe sounds like a different game other than the fundementals on Risk... what we have made is a twist to the normal game - not a complete rewrite?

C.

The difference with what you told me about your idea is that in my case you cannot just pick any province to attack once the minimap nation is taken.
It's a bit unfair/unrealistic that someone who has benelux or ireland first (small nation) can jump into Britain or FRance into any province (far from the border smack in the middle ) with only 1 defense while 2 other players are still quarreling there for control in a different corner.
This benefits the smaller nations (again) ..which is unrealistic..

Well see what is possible in xml ..
I think in xml (as been done before see Map NEW WORLD) turning the nation number from grey into your colour and consequently a fixed +bonus per turn is possible. Also to attack one way from the nation to a border province is also possible in XML.
Only the thing of greying it out once you lose a province (if a condition is not met) is perhaps not done before..but what is possible in XML is perhaps to reset it to +1 grey (instead of remembering the up till then accumulated troops).
But I guess leaving it intact in order to immediately counter attack the agressor's border province (or that of another nation on the opposite side) is acceptable.

[yeti_c]

The difference with what you told me about your idea is that in my case you cannot just pick any province to attack once the minimap nation is taken.
It's a bit unfair/unrealistic that someone who has benelux or ireland first (small nation) can jump into Britain or FRance into any province (far from the border smack in the middle ) with only 1 defense while 2 other players are still quarreling there for control in a different corner.
This benefits the smaller nations (again) ..which is unrealistic..

No - you still have to fight through the neutral country territory - you can't just hose out another countries regions without holding the actual country - and if you hold the country - you are liable to be attacked from below too.

Well see what is possible in xml ..
I think turning nation grey into your colour and consequently +bonus per turn (if all provinces = 1 colour then..) is possible.
Also attack one way from nation to (a or couple of) border province ..is also possible.

Only the thing of greying it out once you lose a province is unknown..but perhaps reset it to +1 greyed is also an option...making it eminent to attack first / asap once you have a nation.

This is just babble - can you reword this into something meaningful?

C.

[lt_oddball]

Well see what is possible in xml ..
I think in xml (as been done before see Map NEW WORLD) turning the nation number from grey into your colour and consequently a fixed +bonus per turn is possible. Also to attack one way from the nation to a border province is also possible in XML.
Only the thing of greying it out once you lose a province (if a condition is not met) is perhaps not done before..but what is possible in XML is perhaps to reset it to +1 grey (instead of remembering the up till then accumulated troops).
But I guess leaving it intact in order to immediately counter attack the agressor's border province (or that of another nation on the opposite side) is acceptable.


Look , the way your map works now, you 'll see that after turn 4 player 1 has Benelux provinces. All other players are still busy in France, Spain, Germany.
In turn 5 player 1 knocks out the grey armies on benelux nation in the minimap ..now the bonus starts kicking (and NO-ONE is able to attack player 1).
In turn 6 player 1 is FREE to choose between Britain, France, Germany to make his attack run. ..he can knock out those grey defenses ..or he can wait longer to build up a () body of troops to plan in the next turn to OVERRUN any other nation's grey defense troops and IMMEDIATELY jump in ANY corner of that nation.
SO when in turn 8 France is JUST conquered by player 4, player 1 has accumulated enough troops to attack in turn 9 from Benelux and wash over France and start the invasion in the SOUTH of France.
Therefore your "dynamics" FAVOURS the smaller nations..which is not proper/in line with the historical concept.


The most important thing and easy to do is to Make only ONE way attack FRom a minimap nation to a number of bordering foreign border provinces.
That at least disallows the parachute jumping attacks that your map allows now. (Benelux to Germany to Bayern)
though it still allows for hopping from nation to border province to border nation to another border province...(eg: Germany to Alsace to France to Aragon )

[yeti_c]

Well see what is possible in xml ..
I think in xml (as been done before see Map NEW WORLD) turning the nation number from grey into your colour and consequently a fixed +bonus per turn is possible. Also to attack one way from the nation to a border province is also possible in XML.
Only the thing of greying it out once you lose a province (if a condition is not met) is perhaps not done before..but what is possible in XML is perhaps to reset it to +1 grey (instead of remembering the up till then accumulated troops).
But I guess leaving it intact in order to immediately counter attack the agressor's border province (or that of another nation on the opposite side) is acceptable.

I'm still not really understanding your terminology - What do you mean by "turning from grey into your colour"? do you mean conquering that territory?

Yes 1 way attacks are possible - I did mention earlier that I might be willing to add Bombardment attacks into the small countries.

Also - The small nations get +1 for their countries - that's hardly a Whopping bonus that can be used to create a huge body of troops? -> Note that the 5 neutral armies on the minimap are up for debate too.

C.

[yeti_c]

Latest:



Lightened inner borders
Reworked legend
Fixed some territory names

Todo

Legend text saying "Hold regions & country for bonus".
Discuss neutral starting values.
Discuss possible bombardements (unsure)

C.

[ZeakCytho]

Discuss possible bombardements (unsure)

I'm against bombardments. I rather like the gameplay as it is now

As for starting neutral values, I think 5 is a bit too low. Since you can't get the bonus without taking out the neutrals guarding you, the neutrals will never seal anyone in with a large bonus. Therefor, I think they could be higher. However, if they're too high, the first person to get a bonus will be able to cripple the second person to get one, for the second player will have lost a significant number of men taking on the neutrals, leaving himself open to be broken by the first player to take a bonus. I think, then, that the best number of neutrals are 6 or 7.

Another thought: does every country need to start with the same number of neutrals? Maybe we should have more neutrals for higher bonuses.

[gimil]

Another thought: does every country need to start with the same number of neutrals? Maybe we should have more neutrals for higher bonuses.

Me and yeti where discussing this earlier, although we thought higher neutrals for smaller bonuses.

[ZeakCytho]

Another thought: does every country need to start with the same number of neutrals? Maybe we should have more neutrals for higher bonuses.

Me and yeti where discussing this earlier, although we thought higher neutrals for smaller bonuses.

I see the logic in that too. Hmm...On the one hand, smaller bonuses are easier to take and having more neutrals will make that harder, "punishing" people who go for them by making them go through more guys. On the other hand, the fact that the bonus is lower is already a "punishment." So maybe this is not needed.

[pamoa]

STILL TO DO

RHEINLAND
NEDERLAND_

I think your gameplay would be understand quicker,
if you named minimap as COUNTRIES with legend saying "can attack adjacent"
and the current countries as BONUS with a legend saying "hold regions & country"

I also would say "Country and all its respective regions can attack each other" instead of the current last line

[yeti_c]

STILL TO DO

RHEINLAND
NEDERLAND_

Yeah - I told Gimil about this one after he sent me the image!!

I think your gameplay would be understand quicker,
if you named minimap as COUNTRIES with legend saying "can attack adjacent"
and the current countries as BONUS with a legend saying "hold regions & country"

This might indeed work...

I also would say "Country and all its respective regions can attack each other" instead of the current last line

Not sure on this one - but maybe - lets get the above change in first - and then see what we have.

C.

[lt_oddball]

I'm still not really understanding your terminology - What do you mean by "turning from grey into your colour"? do you mean conquering that territory?

Also - The small nations get +1 for their countries - that's hardly a Whopping bonus that can be used to create a huge body of troops? -> Note that the 5 neutral armies on the minimap are up for debate too.
C.

"turning to grey" meaning returning to neutral . And "turning from grey to your colour" meaning becoming your colour from neutral (without effectively attacking and winning by dices that neutral spot on the map).


But here 's another thought:
Instead of the minimap showing the european nations geographically, you better make it a map with the national flags (of those times) laid out in a circle (sort of diplomacy round-table style) in which all flags can attack any of the other flags.
This makes it more "realistic" too; All nations have access to the sea.
Once you are a power (like Spain) you can attack Holland avoiding France's integrity (in reallife by using an Armada over the atlantic and north-sea).
Same thing, Holland can attack Italy (nb: admiral De Ruyter did attack Italian Pirates in the Meditaranean Seas..where he perished) directly .

This adds realism and adds even more dynamics to this map.
And denies the certainty that small countries in the corner (like ireland) are a ticket to success..as there is no more "map corner".

And still i'd wish for a one way attack from a mini-map flag to a single enemy border province...as in reality the spanish could land only in one british province from the sea..(Cornwall..other coasts= rocky, or there is detection warning)
And the french could only optimally invade Benelux in one certain dutch province (luxemburg too hilly..so flanders...coast invasion would technically be possible, but why build boats if you can walk right in: thru flanders thus).
The same for all the other international invasions.

But that doesnt mean that one nation has only one invasion province to worry about: Spain can be invaded by italy (only) in Valencia and invaded by Britain (only) in Galicia and invaded by Portugal (only) in Castilla.

Think about it..


(flags: http://www.worldflags101.com/ or http://www.crwflags.com or check this page the image all the way down http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-fla ... -index.htm "National Ensigns" and do look for the old style flags; The Netherlands flag was originally orange, white and blue and featured up to nine stripes...

[mibi]

Im confused... is the minimap in play?.. thats odd. Can Lux attack Hessen? I thought the minimap was a bonus legend at first.

I think a better explanation is in order on the map. How does one attack the minimap?

[yeti_c]

Im confused... is the minimap in play?.. thats odd. Can Lux attack Hessen? I thought the minimap was a bonus legend at first.

I think a better explanation is in order on the map. How does one attack the minimap?

Yes the minimap is in play - that the unique part of the gameplay.

Did you read the legend?

C.

[gimil]

Did you read the legend?

C.

[InkL0sed]

Hm... have you considered making the countries themselves killer neutral? That way you essentially create many more borders for some of the continents. I think it's needed because right now I think the gameplay will be incredibly restrictive. Once people start getting bonuses it'll essentially be a 7-ish-country map.

[yeti_c]

Hm... have you considered making the countries themselves killer neutral? That way you essentially create many more borders for some of the continents. I think it's needed because right now I think the gameplay will be incredibly restrictive. Once people start getting bonuses it'll essentially be a 7-ish-country map.

An interesting idea... I shall give thought to that... although - I'm feeling against it at the moment - but I will definitely consider it.

C.

[pamoa]

...right now I think the gameplay will be incredibly restrictive. Once people start getting bonuses it'll essentially be a 7-ish-country map.

I think InkL0sed pointed out a very important feature about gameplay. This is almost a one connecting point map a bit like "Valley Of The Kings" map. And like this last one I think you should consider introducing a secondary attack route to get a more diversified/open gameplay. It could be like lt_oddball said:

...And still i'd wish for a one way attack from a mini-map flag to a single enemy border province...as in reality the spanish could land only in one british province from the sea..(Cornwall..other coasts= rocky, or there is detection warning)
And the french could only optimally invade Benelux in one certain dutch province (luxemburg too hilly..so flanders...coast invasion would technically be possible, but why build boats if you can walk right in: thru flanders thus).
The same for all the other international invasions.
But that doesnt mean that one nation has only one invasion province to worry about: Spain can be invaded by italy (only) in Valencia and invaded by Britain (only) in Galicia and invaded by Portugal (only) in Castilla.

Or one way invasion route directly on the map!

[yeti_c]

This is essentially the premise of the map...

Regarding the second bit... how are we supposed to explain that on the map?

People are having difficulty with the current ruleset - to explain an extra layer of attack routes ontop of that is gonna be even more tricky...

C.

[pamoa]

Just draw it on the map!