9/11 Conspiracies(threads merged)

[Guiscard]

sorry, but you're all fucking idiots.

Loose Change is bullshit. and so are any of you who buy into this bullshit.

quit wasting your lives on this bullshit and go get a job!

I got one, thank you. (a job that is)

You work for the man, man.

[DaGip]

sorry, but you're all fucking idiots.

Loose Change is bullshit. and so are any of you who buy into this bullshit.

quit wasting your lives on this bullshit and go get a job!

I got one, thank you. (a job that is)

You work for the man, man.

Yep. The man, man, man, man, man, man...ad infinitum (a few of these men are quite possibly twelve foot Lizard Men in multidimesional holographic clothing though).

[Juan_Bottom]

You better know your stuff. I'm reaching expert status.

[jay_a2j]

I'm no expert, but I do have common sense.

[Backglass]

Thread #6 on this same topic. Hom many times must we go through this?

[heavycola]

You better know your stuff. I'm reaching expert status.

I'll play. Point by point. Because it's fun.

BUt if all you're going to do is link to youtube, or alex jones, or post jay-esque unsubstantiated and ill-informed nonsense, then there isn't much point.

[Iz Man]

Thread #6 on this same topic. Hom many times must we go through this?

exactly

[Dancing Mustard]

Another round of "Kerb-stomp the baseless and poorly informed conspiracy theory" you say? Well I guess I'm game if you are...

[Juan_Bottom]

I'll play. Point by point. Because it's fun.

BUt if all you're going to do is link to youtube, or alex jones, or post jay-esque unsubstantiated and ill-informed nonsense, then there isn't much point.

it is good fun, isn't it? I may link to Alex Jones though... Simply because he does get some good info, on occasion. Especially by having good guests. For some reason, they always come to his show.

Thread #6 on this same topic. Hom many times must we go through this?

Welp, I wasn't here. And.... you've been counting?

[Backglass]

Welp, I wasn't here. And.... you've been counting?

And all exactly the same, complete with You Tube Videos, heresay and speculation.

[Dancing Mustard]

Ok ok, let's pretend that this is going to be a serious debate that won't be hijacked by inane specultors and Jay shouting "Well you will see when you are dead!!!1". We'll all argue point by point (like grown-ups do), then abandon the whole thing when the argumentless youtube spammers (read: Jay) get too excited and start calling everbody Freemasons and Hellspawn.

Since Juan seems to be the one who has a proposition (911 = Inside Job), perhaps it would be best if he were to outline his reasons for believing such a thing, then we can all respond in a polite and measured fashion (which I am totally going to do this time).


So: Dear Juan,
In outline (and in the form of a text-based argument), why is it in that you believe 911 was an inside job?

[heavycola]

Welp, I wasn't here. And.... you've been counting?

And all exactly the same, complete with You Tube Videos, heresay and speculation.

But this is what the internet is for! And who doesn't love being right? Making xtra look like more and more of a clunking halfwit with every post brought me about the same amount of pleasure as eating a Cornetto on a warm - not hot - day.

Not that Juan is a clunking halfwit. Which is why, with all the misguided optimism and naivety in the world, we are going to change his mind.

[Juan_Bottom]

Let's start slow....and go from there.

Cell Phones don't work from the altitude that the original commission reports says they were working from.

Flight 77 and Flight 93 both completely vaporized, firt time in history a plane ever has. The mortician from Shanksville PA says he never saw a drop of blood. Yet the Army was able to identify nearly all of the bodies from both of the vaporized planes?

Tower 7 was not hit by planes...... yet collapsed.

The BBC reported the collapse of building 7 23 minutes prior to its actual collapse on 9/11. And it wasn't hit by a plane.

Hundreds...thousands??? of people from inside the towers, and watching from outside, saw bombs go off inside the building. Including firefighters who were inside.

There was no out of control fire inside the buildings. The Jet Fuel had already burned up. You can see the explosion from it on tape.

[InkL0sed]

Welp, I wasn't here. And.... you've been counting?

And all exactly the same, complete with You Tube Videos, heresay and speculation.

But this is what the internet is for! And who doesn't love being right? Making xtra look like more and more of a clunking halfwit with every post brought me about the same amount of pleasure as eating a Cornetto on a warm - not hot - day.

Not that Juan is a clunking halfwit. Which is why, with all the misguided optimism and naivety in the world, we are going to change his mind.

Yay!

[Juan_Bottom]

Welp, I wasn't here. And.... you've been counting?

And all exactly the same, complete with You Tube Videos, heresay and speculation.

But this is what the internet is for! And who doesn't love being right? Making xtra look like more and more of a clunking halfwit with every post brought me about the same amount of pleasure as eating a Cornetto on a warm - not hot - day.

Not that Juan is a clunking halfwit. Which is why, with all the misguided optimism and naivety in the world, we are going to change his mind.

Welp, I'm not opposed to the idea. But like I said.... I do know my stuff....

And I have no YOUTUBE videos!!!! HeyHey!

[heavycola]

Let's start slow....and go from there.

OK OK OK, point by point. I'll start with building 7 because i can pretty much go from memory.

[/quote]
Tower 7 was not hit by planes...... yet collapsed.[/quote]

Yes, it did. The building was structurally damaged by the fall of WTC2 and there is plenty of eyewitness testimony that 'tremendous, tremendous fires' were raging inside the structure. Link is to testimony from a firefighter who was in the nearby Verizon building looking down at WTC7.
There is plenty more testimony - from firefighters, fire chiefs and yes, Larry Silverstein, that the order was given to fire crews to evacuate the area; fires were raging, water pressure was low because of damaged mains. They knew it was going to fall.

The BBC reported the collapse of building 7 23 minutes prior to its actual collapse on 9/11. And it wasn't hit by a plane.

Ok... think about this. Really.
The elite conspiracy decided to forewarn an independent news agency of their plans? they went to a reporter across the pond? Ask yourself why on earth they would do that?
The truth is, as I said, everyone guessed WT7 was coming down. BBC news, reporting live, reported that it had, not that it was going to. Surely not the only mistake made by rolling news crews on that day. This is seriously weak, dude.

[Backglass]

OK.....I'll play...again.

Cell Phones don't work from the altitude that the original commission reports says they were working from.

Says who. I have used a cell phone while airborne.

Flight 77 and Flight 93 both completely vaporized, firt time in history a plane ever has.

First time in history a loaded 767 was flown a full throttle into the side of a building.

The mortician from Shanksville PA says he never saw a drop of blood.

Heresay. Link please. Even if true, what does this prove? They can identify mummified pharaohs which also have no blood.

Yet the Army was able to identify nearly all of the bodies from both of the vaporized planes?

These were not mystery people. There was a manifest of all passengers on-board. Much easier to identify when you know who you are looking for.

Tower 7 was not hit by planes...... yet collapsed.

Tower 7 was mortally wounded by the falling of the North Tower. This is well documented by hundreds of independent engineers.

FYI: There were ZERO casualties with the collapse of Building 7. Why would the New World Order bring it down for no reason?

The BBC reported the collapse of building 7 23 minutes prior to its actual collapse on 9/11. And it wasn't hit by a plane.

In the midst of panic, mayhem and a giant cloud of dust & debris, many rumors swelled. Remember the one about "Muslims dancing in the streets of Manhattan?" Never happened.

Hundreds...thousands??? of people from inside the towers, and watching from outside, saw bombs go off inside the building. Including firefighters who were inside.

Link please. Are you really wanting to go down Jay's "controlled demolition" road? Please do.

There was no out of control fire inside the buildings. The Jet Fuel had already burned up. You can see the explosion from it on tape.

Wrong. Prove it.

[Juan_Bottom]

OK OK OK, point by point. I'll start with building 7 because i can pretty much go from memory.

Tower 7 was not hit by planes...... yet collapsed.[/quote]

Yes, it did. The building was structurally damaged by the fall of WTC2 and there is plenty of eyewitness testimony that 'tremendous, tremendous fires' were raging inside the structure. Link is to testimony from a firefighter who was in the nearby Verizon building looking down at WTC7.
There is plenty more testimony - from firefighters, fire chiefs and yes, Larry Silverstein, that the order was given to fire crews to evacuate the area; fires were raging, water pressure was low because of damaged mains. They knew it was going to fall.[/quote]

Here's the deal. A peice of "flaming debris" falls from tower 2, lands on tower 7, and sets it on fire. The fire is soon out of control, and firefighters have to back off and let it burn itself out. Correct? I say the fire can be as out of control as it wants to be.

This steel structure still fell on it's own footprint.

Ok... think about this. Really.
The elite conspiracy decided to forewarn an independent news agency of their plans? they went to a reporter across the pond? Ask yourself why on earth they would do that?
The truth is, as I said, everyone guessed WT7 was coming down. BBC news, reporting live, reported that it had, not that it was going to. Surely not the only mistake made by rolling news crews on that day. This is seriously weak, dude.

Here's why I think that this can be considered significant. No steel tower in the history of everything has collapsed because of a fire(of 80 something towers?). They never predicted the World Trade Centers were going to collapse. And not only were they "burning out of control"(not true) but they actually were hit by planes.

If no steel buildings have ever collapsed from a fire, where did they get this idea? They never speculated that the towers would fall. Yet they repiditly made the mistake of saying tower 7 had collapsed.
It is weak... but then again.... strange...


Tower 7 also had a closed fiber-optic line with the pentagon that day. Between that and the bodies with bullet holes, most truthers speculate that tower 7 played a big role in the attacks.<---not neccisaraly me

[Juan_Bottom]

Says who. I have used a cell phone while airborne.

What altitude? what plane, and date--->

The Pilots Union has issued a statement that Cell Phones don't work from that altitude. Plus after 9-11 Boeing spent $10,000 on building a cell tower in one of its planes so that customers could make ground calls on there cells.

First time in history a loaded 767 was flown a full throttle into the side of a building.

Actually, only one of these planes hit a building. And many planes have gone full speed into sides of mountains, the ocean, and straight into the earth, all without vaporizing. And most of these planes were made out of metal with a lower melting temp.

Heresay. Link please. Even if true, what does this prove? They can identify mummified pharaohs which also have no blood.

If you know 9-11, then you know this. He's been protesting from the start. He's even quoted in LOOSECHANGE.

Did you miss the part were i mentioned that both of these planes VAPORIZED! yet all the bodies were recovered, identifiable?

Tower 7 was mortally wounded by the falling of the North Tower. This is well documented by hundreds of independent engineers.

FYI: There were ZERO casualties with the collapse of Building 7. Why would the New World Order bring it down for no reason?

There's also the matter of the missing gold. Other thatn that, I think I answered this above. It was a government leased building.

Link please. Are you really wanting to go down Jay's "controlled demolition" road? Please do.

Do I need a link? Remember all those reports on SEPT 11 where people were talking about the bombs? Even Firefighters who were in the buildings?????
What about the tape of those firefighters inside tower two who said that there was more danger from the exploding bombs than the fire. That they could put the fire out with two handlines?

Wrong. Prove it.

You're wrong, and being dumb. You can SEE THE EXPLOSION ON THE TAPE. What you see on fire, is stuff inside the tower. Not fuel.

[Backglass]

Here's the deal. A peice of "flaming debris" falls from tower 2, lands on tower 7, and sets it on fire. The fire is soon out of control, and firefighters have to back off and let it burn itself out. Correct? I say the fire can be as out of control as it wants to be.

This steel structure still fell on it's own footprint.

You are alleging the building fell on fire alone from "a piece of burning debris". This is not in fact what happened.

The collapse of the North Tower seriously damaged the Building 7. The southwest Facade had significant damage. There was a 10-story gash in the center of the south face extending almost 1/4 of the way into the building. Remember, Building 7 was supported by it's external columns, each supporting 2,000 square feet of floor space. The simultaneous removal of several of these columns compromised the structures integrity. News footage shows cracking and bowing of the east wall immediately before collapse, which is consistent with this explanation. . This was much more than a fire caused by burning paper...it was a massive blow to the support structure of the building itself.

Here's why I think that this can be considered significant. No steel tower in the history of everything has collapsed because of a fire(of 80 something towers?).

No steel tower in the "history if anything" was ever struck by a full loaded & fueled 767 at full throttle.

They never predicted the World Trade Centers were going to collapse. And not only were they "burning out of control"(not true) but they actually were hit by planes.

Your point?

If no steel buildings have ever collapsed from a fire, where did they get this idea? They never speculated that the towers would fall. Yet they repiditly made the mistake of saying tower 7 had collapsed. It is weak... but then again.... strange...

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. That engineers couldnt predict all future impacts?

Tower 7 also had a closed fiber-optic line with the pentagon that day. Between that and the bodies with bullet holes, most truthers speculate that tower 7 played a big role in the attacks.<---not neccisaraly me

Do you have any idea the number of fiber & copper cables that were involved in the WTC complex? I will bet there were a lot more than one not-functioning that day. I will go out on a limb and say that there were at least two escalators, one elevator and ten Urinals out of order as well. Does this prove ANYTHING? Only that it was a HUGE complex with a lot of infrastructure.

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Tower 7 also had a closed fiber-optic line with the pentagon that day. Between that and the bodies with bullet holes, most truthers speculate that tower 7 played a big role in the attacks.<---not neccisaraly me

Do you have any idea the number of fiber & copper cables that were involved in the WTC complex? I will bet there were a lot more than one not-functioning that day. I will go out on a limb and say that there were at least two escalators, one elevator and ten Urinals out of order as well. Does this prove ANYTHING? Only that it was a HUGE complex with a lot of infrastructure.

Again, not my theory. But still plausable. One closed communication line.

You are alleging the building fell on fire alone from "a piece of burning debris". This is not in fact what happened.

The collapse of the North Tower seriously damaged the Building 7. The southwest Facade had significant damage. There was a 10-story gash in the center of the south face extending almost 1/4 of the way into the building. Remember, Building 7 was supported by it's external columns, each supporting 2,000 square feet of floor space. The simultaneous removal of several of these columns compromised the structures integrity. News footage shows cracking and bowing of the east wall immediately before collapse, which is consistent with this explanation. . This was much more than a fire caused by burning paper...it was a massive blow to the support structure of the building itself.

I HAVE READ the commission report. The collapse was due to fire in all three accounts.

No steel tower in the "history if anything" was ever struck by a full loaded & fueled 767 at full throttle.

You're taking what I said out of context. You would know a fire would drop one structure because you believe debri hit it, but you wouldn't know that the taller building that was hit by a plane going 55o mph would fall down? Is that what you mean?

Your point?

What I think you're point is...only more sarcastic.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. That engineers couldnt predict all future impacts?

That BBC reporters are not Engineers. And I doubt that an Engineer on call would tell them that collapse was imminent.

[Backglass]

What altitude? what plane, and date--->

July 24th, 2005...767 from JFK-SEA somewhere over Colorado.

The Pilots Union has issued a statement that Cell Phones don't work from that altitude.

And the plumbers union says airplanes can't make a zero-g roll. Last time I checked pilots didn't build cell phones. Don;t take my word for it...try it some time. They work just fine. The real reason is a disruption of the cellular grid as you can hit multiple towers in multiple area simultaneously. That and money.

Actually, only one of these planes hit a building. And many planes have gone full speed into sides of mountains, the ocean, and straight into the earth, all without vaporizing. And most of these planes were made out of metal with a lower melting temp.

I am unsure what exactly you are alleging. The planes entered a very large steel building, loaded with explosive fuel, and then exploded. Debris DID shoot out the other side and there was plenty of airplane debris found. I am not sure where you are getting the notion that EVERYTHING vaporized into thin air.

Did you miss the part were i mentioned that both of these planes VAPORIZED! yet all the bodies were recovered, identifiable?

Again, who is claiming that the planes completely vanished? I have never heard anyone claim this. You don;t need a complete, intact body in order to identify it. Many were identified through other means as well...documents, jewelry, dental work, etc.

There's also the matter of the missing gold.

Alledged Gold.

Do I need a link? Remember all those reports on SEPT 11 where people were talking about the bombs? Even Firefighters who were in the buildings?????
What about the tape of those firefighters inside tower two who said that there was more danger from the exploding bombs than the fire. That they could put the fire out with two handlines?

So...firefighters are now controlled demo experts?

Fact: No building the size of the WTC towers have ever been imploded.
Fact: There are only TWO companies in the world who could even attempt such a demo.
Fact: It would take MONTHS of prep work. Hundreds of thousands of charges. Sawing and drilling through every support structure in the building. Hundreds of miles of wire and a very large crew to accomplish.

Yet...nobody saw these hundreds of prep workers. Nobody saw the miles of cables. Nobody saw the support structures being pre-weakened.

You're wrong, and being dumb. You can SEE THE EXPLOSION ON THE TAPE. What you see on fire, is stuff inside the tower. Not fuel.

You are seeing windows blow out, yes. What would you expect them to do when the floors above come crashing down? How can you be so sure what is burning and what is not?

Again, your theory takes THOUSANDS of accomplices. Thousands of Americans who are willing to blindly kill their fellow Americans at incredible risk. Why have none of these people come forward? Where are the disgruntled employees? Where are the those who can't sleep at night and want this of their concience? Where are the camera phone pictures of the prep work? SEVEN YEARS later and the story is airtight. Are they robots?

This isn't Hollywood. It;s real.

[Backglass]

I HAVE READ the commission report. The collapse was due to fire in all three accounts.

You must have missed this from last year: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/rele ... 62907.html

"An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet; Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, as the large floor bays were unable to redistribute the loads, bringing down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and Horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7, that were much thicker than the rest of the floors), triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, resulting in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure."

[Neoteny]

"An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet; Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, as the large floor bays were unable to redistribute the loads, bringing down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and Horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7, that were much thicker than the rest of the floors), triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, resulting in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure."

Dissed.

[Pedronicus]

So much of the conspiracy theories are generated by the government. I mean come on CIA - you mean to tell me that there were just 2 security cameras that caught about 6 frames of blurred plane slamming into the Pentagon?

I don't believe that a building as important as the Pentagon had such a small amount of security surveillance in the immediate vicinity.

All they had to do was release the footage from all the other cameras and the conspiracy theory would of been lessened. But they didn't. (and no one would believe them if they released it this far down the line)

If conspiracy theorists are upsetting a large amount of Americans - they are fueled by the CIA.