free will vs omniscience

Frigidus · Post by **Frigidus** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:43 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Hes right ya'll...

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:He was either Lord, a liar, or a lunatic
None of whom can do great things...

Or his teachings got twisted around, and a few guys hungry for power added in the whole "I'm God" bit.

polarbeast23 · Post by **polarbeast23** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:50 pm

God is beyond the comprehension of the feeble minded beings that we all are. There is no way to relate to God that I can see. I think of it this way... I have asked God to help me in one way or another many times... sometimes he did... sometimes he didn't... to me, this indicates that God is about as consistent as random chance.

Frigidus · Post by **Frigidus** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:51 pm

polarbeast23 wrote:God is beyond the comprehension of the feeble minded beings that we all are. There is no way to relate to God that I can see. I think of it this way... I have asked God to help me in one way or another many times... sometimes he did... sometimes he didn't... to me, this indicates that God is about as consistent as random chance.

Or Joe Pesci.

polarbeast23 · Post by **polarbeast23** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:58 pm

Frigidus wrote:Or Joe Pesci.

You mean as an actor? I think he is consistent... he always plays the same character in every role

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:10 am

joecoolfrog wrote:The Essenes who are believed to have been the compilers and guardians of the scrolls were a strongly messianic sect, they were eagerly anticipating a messiah and yet mention Jesus not once.......Mmmmmmmm
Now they lived at the same time as Jesus reputedly did and in the same region so what can we deduce from the fact that they either had never heard of him or considered him too insignificant to warrant a single line ?

While the Essenes were a messianic sect, the Roman chronicalers of the time were not, and yet they recorded His existance. Reasonably, one could argue that the Roman scribes were not "blinded" by religious stigmas, so whether or not the Essenes wrote it down is inconsequential. Obviously, they felt jilted and in an act of spite, they did not bother to record all the facts.

We see this sort of thing today. It is called "spin".

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:30 am

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:Evolution is the opposite of God. It denies that God exists, and no macro-evolutionary idea has ever been proven.

So, it only took one week?

Hugh Ross, a Christian who by trade works as a univerisity professor, made a very good arguement that the word "day" could really mean anything from a literal 24-hour day to the sunrest to sunset day, or even "in the day of Ben Franklin" type of stuff.

I really, really do not care HOW God made it all. I care WHY He did it. I think, all honest Christians should (most, I think, do already) think the same.

BTW, since you don't have very good taste in Sci-Fi, Star Wars is better.

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:40 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote: So nothing a person does is predetermined, yes?
Assuming there's no God, either answer has good arguments. I see no room for free will if God is both our omnipotent creator and an omniscient being.
Then, since everybody has "free will", they are not predetermined to make any choice on any matter; they free to think, feel, do, act, etc, anything.

Do I understand you correctly? Just want to get it all out there so we don't spend the next ten pages bickering over definintions.

HC, Frigidus?

Hello?!

I assume that I now understand what we are discussing?

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:50 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote: So nothing a person does is predetermined, yes?
Assuming there's no God, either answer has good arguments. I see no room for free will if God is both our omnipotent creator and an omniscient being.
Then, since everybody has "free will", they are not predetermined to make any choice on any matter; they free to think, feel, do, act, etc, anything.

Do I understand you correctly? Just want to get it all out there so we don't spend the next ten pages bickering over definintions.
HC, Frigidus?

Hello?!

I assume that I now understand what we are discussing?

Well, we will probably always bicker over definitions, but it's valiant of you to try and avoid that. I'd give you a tentative green light to go ahead and make any point you're trying to make. I think it's clear that the borg are stuck in the idea that evolution and god are incompatible.

MeDeFe · Post by **MeDeFe** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:34 am

I know how Jenos feels, I also feel that many of the points I considered my main ones have been ignored in this thread, not even dismissed as obviously false, just ignored.

joecoolfrog · Post by **joecoolfrog** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:58 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:The Essenes who are believed to have been the compilers and guardians of the scrolls were a strongly messianic sect, they were eagerly anticipating a messiah and yet mention Jesus not once.......Mmmmmmmm
Now they lived at the same time as Jesus reputedly did and in the same region so what can we deduce from the fact that they either had never heard of him or considered him too insignificant to warrant a single line ?

You sort of have it backwards. A lot of scholars believe the Essenes influenced Jesus, that he likely speant time with them. However, there is the phrase "a prophet is never respected in his own land" is pertinent.

And some scholars believe that Jesus actually was an Essene but thats another story.
Cant help feeling your quote might be more pertinent if they had simply shown scant respect, been dismissive even but ignore him completely !!!
'' Hey Jacob this new guy out of Nazareth seems a contender ''
" Nah waste of space - ignore him ''
" But we havent had a sniff of a potential messiah for 127 years, lets at least review a few of his gigs and get some interest going "
" Nah dont fancy the guy - bit too full of himself "
" Yeh guess you are right,sure to be another one along tommorow for us to worship "

joecoolfrog · Post by **joecoolfrog** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:08 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:The Essenes who are believed to have been the compilers and guardians of the scrolls were a strongly messianic sect, they were eagerly anticipating a messiah and yet mention Jesus not once.......Mmmmmmmm
Now they lived at the same time as Jesus reputedly did and in the same region so what can we deduce from the fact that they either had never heard of him or considered him too insignificant to warrant a single line ?
While the Essenes were a messianic sect, the Roman chronicalers of the time were not, and yet they recorded His existance. Reasonably, one could argue that the Roman scribes were not "blinded" by religious stigmas, so whether or not the Essenes wrote it down is inconsequential. Obviously, they felt jilted and in an act of spite, they did not bother to record all the facts.

We see this sort of thing today. It is called "spin".

I have to say that it is pretty absurd to prefix pure speculation with the word obviously but in any case it is a valid argument.
Can you provide some links to the writings of these Roman scribes - I assume you mean they were writing at the time of Christ as opposed to being written at a later date and simply concerning the period in question - obviously the later would invalidate your point

joecoolfrog · Post by **joecoolfrog** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:13 am

polarbeast23 wrote:God is beyond the comprehension of the feeble minded beings that we all are. There is no way to relate to God that I can see. I think of it this way... I have asked God to help me in one way or another many times... sometimes he did... sometimes he didn't... to me, this indicates that God is about as consistent as random chance.

One might simply turn that around and say that the abscence of a guiding spirit is beyond the comprehension of the feeble minded, more valid that way in my view,

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:55 am

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:I don't think you realize how impossible that is. Let's look at the logical steps.

Go right ahead and explain it all away with your odd "logic".

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:Jesus was a man who claimed to be God. There are two possibilities:
1. He was telling the truth
2. He was lying

Let's look at 2 for a second

2a. He knew he was lying
2b. He didn't know he was lying

2a goes on to:
He was a liar

2b goes on to:
He was a lunatic

There are thousands of reasons & choices. But if I am restricted to your narrow view point, then Liar/Lunatic are the logical choices.

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell." -CS Lewis

I find it hilarious that you are using a man who wrote novels about magical beings and fairy's to prove that magical beings and fairy's exist.

IRONY METER!

Besides, this line of thinking is Bullshit. According to your lovely quote, a lunatic who thinks he is a god is "on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg". Why? This makes zero sense. Their have been thousands of highly intelligent lunatics throughout history. For example, Ted Bundy was extremely intelligent. He was also obviously a lunatic. This is simply another "wishing away" of the cold hard truth.

Magic isn't real. Flying angels aren't real. Horned red devils aren't real. Invisible mystery gods aren't real and Men are men...even ancient ones.

Jesus was a man...just like you and me. No magical powers...other than the powers of persuasion. Did he believe his own rhetoric? Who knows.

LocutusofBorg01 · Post by **LocutusofBorg01** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:07 am

I find it hilarious that you are using a man who wrote novels about magical beings and fairy's to prove that magical beings and fairy's exist.

I find it hilarious how you obviously know nothing about CS Lewis. He wrote more than just the Chronicles of Narnia. I don't know which book this is from, but I know its from one of his more realistic books.

a lunatic who thinks he is a god is "on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg".

Go out and say you are God on earth and see how people react. Unless it's true, people will put you on a level with people who say they are a poached egg

LocutusofBorg01 · Post by **LocutusofBorg01** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:08 am

Didn't see the other part of ur post

There are thousands of reasons & choices. But if I am restricted to your narrow view point, then Liar/Lunatic are the logical choices.

Give me any other logical choices and I'll consider them, but I don't see how there could be any other choices.

joecoolfrog · Post by **joecoolfrog** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:26 am

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:Didn't see the other part of ur post

There are thousands of reasons & choices. But if I am restricted to your narrow view point, then Liar/Lunatic are the logical choices.
Give me any other logical choices and I'll consider them, but I don't see how there could be any other choices.

How about the fact that he didnt actually claim to be God ?
Find me a quote from the gospels of Mathew,Mark or Luke, should be easy to find dozens surely !

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:33 am

PLAYER57832 wrote: Actually, sorry, but I am pretty well with Loc here. There is absolutely debate (outside of Christianity, that is) about who Jesus was, etc. But few credible scholars deny his existance.

Well duh. I just attacked his claim that there was more proof about his existence than for Julius Caesar.

LocutusofBorg01 · Post by **LocutusofBorg01** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:55 am

How about the fact that he didnt actually claim to be God ?
Find me a quote from the gospels of Mathew,Mark or Luke, should be easy to find dozens surely !

No problem.

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:9
"I and the Father are one" John 10:30
"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

The last one takes some explaining. The Hebrew version of "I AM" (I think its YHWH, but I'm not 100% sure) is the name of God. It was never used for fear of being blasphemous (that's a whole different topic). When Jesus said "I AM", what He was saying is "before Abraham was, I was God"

That's just a few of the many examples.

Back to evolution...where did it all come from? It is a law of science (undebatable) that something cannot come from nothing, so where did the earth come from if evolution is true. Don't say it has always existed, because that violates another law of science. We know one day the universe will cease to exist (or at least our galaxy will), because it is unsustainable. So, where did it come from?

LocutusofBorg01 · Post by **LocutusofBorg01** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:57 am

How about the fact that he didnt actually claim to be God ?
Find me a quote from the gospels of Mathew,Mark or Luke, should be easy to find dozens surely !

What's wrong with John?!?! I know all my examples are from John, but that's just because I know John the best out of the four (not three) Gospels. Also, there are more in John because each Gospel has it's own emphasis. John emphasizes Jesus as God.

LocutusofBorg01 · Post by **LocutusofBorg01** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:00 am

BTW, since you don't have very good taste in Sci-Fi, Star Wars is better.

Star wars is stupid (just wanted to get that out there)

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:02 am

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:I find it hilarious how you obviously know nothing about CS Lewis. He wrote more than just the Chronicles of Narnia. I don't know which book this is from, but I know its from one of his more realistic books.

Did anyone catch the irony of the above? Sounds like "Modern Jackass Magazine" to me.

(Only fans of This American Life will understand).

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:
a lunatic who thinks he is a god is "on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg".
Go out and say you are God on earth and see how people react. Unless it's true, people will put you on a level with people who say they are a poached egg

Of course...normal people will think this because man-gods are a fantasy. But my POINT is that intelligence and lunacy are not mutually exclusive.

IF jesus believed he was truly the man-god ofspring of a union between an earth woman and an invisible magical force, then he was most likely loony. But obviously he was a very charismatic and influential loony...there have been plenty of them in history. Hitler commanded millions to do his bidding...and he was off his rocker.

He certainly wasn't some hybrid half-man half-invisible goat or whatever your gods look like. To think that is...well...on level with a poached egg.

LocutusofBorg01 · Post by **LocutusofBorg01** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:31 am

Did anyone catch the irony of the above?

That is pretty funny

What I meant is that I haven't read that particular book. I've read the Chronicles of Narnia, Screwtape Letters, and part of Out of the Silent Planet. I guarantee you it's not in those books. If I had to guess, I would say it was not in a book or in Mere Christianity...

But obviously he was a very charismatic and influential loony...there have been plenty of them in history.

I agree with the second part, but no one has ever been like Jesus. I don't know of anyone who called the status quo leader "broods of vipers", "sons of Satan" and "whitewashed tombs". Jesus wasn't a hybrid. He was both fully God and fully man. I'll just leave the goat part alone...

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:44 am

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:
Did anyone catch the irony of the above?
That is pretty funny What I meant is that I haven't read that particular book. I've read the Chronicles of Narnia, Screwtape Letters, and part of Out of the Silent Planet. I guarantee you it's not in those books. If I had to guess, I would say it was not in a book or in Mere Christianity...

But obviously he was a very charismatic and influential loony...there have been plenty of them in history.
I agree with the second part, but no one has ever been like Jesus. I don't know of anyone who called the status quo leader "broods of vipers", "sons of Satan" and "whitewashed tombs". Jesus wasn't a hybrid. He was both fully God and fully man. I'll just leave the goat part alone...

Mohammed?

joecoolfrog · Post by **joecoolfrog** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:41 pm

LocutusofBorg01 wrote:
How about the fact that he didnt actually claim to be God ?
Find me a quote from the gospels of Mathew,Mark or Luke, should be easy to find dozens surely !
What's wrong with John?!?! I know all my examples are from John, but that's just because I know John the best out of the four (not three) Gospels. Also, there are more in John because each Gospel has it's own emphasis. John emphasizes Jesus as God.

Christianity hinges on the New Testament
The bedrock of the New Testament is the 4 gospels
Yet you have no real knowledge of 75% of the gospels

Pathetic !

Now dont you think that something as important as Jesus saying he was God might merit a brief mention in the other 3 gospels, oh and incidently the quotes from John are open to question which might explain why half of Christians DONT believe he was God. Best you go away now and actually learn something about both your religion and science because your ignorance of both is shocking and frankly embarassing.

jonesthecurl · Post by **jonesthecurl** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:04 pm

suggs wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:
Curmudgeonx wrote:Reminds of an ancient George Carlin skit: Can god create a rock so big that he himself can't lift it?
Love that one.
But Carlin lifted that from..umm, dang i've forgotten the philospher -pos. Hume?
But yeah, the paradox of omnipotence is closely bound up with the free will debate.

You may have missed my comment on this one when it came up in an earlier thread:
here's a better question:
If God is omnipotent, cna he create a universe that he cannot interfere with?

Question 2: did he?

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