Positive > Negative

[e_i_pi]

I've not been involved in the Foundry for very long, I'm completely green and happy to admit it. Everyone who wants to contribute to the site with maps comes to the Foundry and puts out their idea for review. In an ideal world, every idea would be great, and all feedback would be constructive. Some feedback, though, is neither positive nor contructive.

Below are some quotes from the Ideas forum, where many new potential mapmakers make their first expression of interest to contribute to the site:

you want help with a map even though you say you already have the map; i would say that you're talking shit

when someone is "talking shit" its more like they're gloating about their superiority over others... i think he's just driveling, to be honest

The gameplay would be stupidly crap because its basically just one big bottle neck

I personally don't like it [...] Or maybe I just hate all Americans and American products

This is an EXTREME case of poor textures/bevels - they look like someone has just thrown them on

This is the first reply some people see to their ideas. Some of these comments are just plain terrible, and I can't imagine anyone saying these things in real life.

If you don't like a map, you don't have to comment on it. If you think the map can be improved, make a comment that will aid in its improvement. Shooting someone down in flames does nothing but discourage newcomers from being part of the community. Recently, I have heard word of two long-time contributors get frustrated to the point that they are directing their attentions elsewhere. This is not good. The more we encourage and coach new contributers and current mapmakers, the more good maps we will have, and the better the site will be for it.

[t-o-m]

I've seen you posting in threads basically discarding feedback, that isn't even on your map, because you think it's some kind of mean gesture of some kind.
Go see some of mibi's comments on some established maps and map makers.
It's called criticism and new people like you just dont get it.

I mean, this comment:

This is an EXTREME case of poor textures/bevels - they look like someone has just thrown them on

You see that as something that is not helping in the slightest, when it obviously means alter the bevel/tone it down.

I have personally helped noobs via PM [sorry to call them that, we were all noobs once] and he was very grateful. This was a person on who's thread i made a comment that you would say wasn't helpful.
Most of us had these comments when we started - and surprise surprise people took them well.

[ZeakCytho]

Two thumbs up for e_i_pi

That being said, I try to comment on maps that I don't like to make them into makes that I do like. For example, I was never a huge fan of Forbidden City, but I posted there to help change it into a map that I liked better. Lo and behold, now it is a map that I like better.

As long as people can post with a sense of humility and intelligence, things should be fine. This applies to both foundry regulars giving feedback and foundry newbs posting their first map. Don't post a new thread about your great, totally unique idea if it happens to be the same idea that has 50 threads on it in the first page. Read up on foundry etiquette before posting. Don't just spam.

It's not that hard to make a smart sounding post. If everyone did that, we'd have far fewer problems.

[e_i_pi]

I mean, this comment:

This is an EXTREME case of poor textures/bevels - they look like someone has just thrown them on

You see that as something that is not helping in the slightest, when it obviously means alter the bevel/tone it down.

Something that also means the same is:
"The bevels are very prominent and look a little stock. Try altering the preset values and toning down the bevel amount to give a more subtle effect"

The difference between the two comments is the tone in them. One is aggressive and derogatory, the other is critically constructive.

t-o-m, you and I have gotten off to a bad start, I don't think anyone would disagree. I don't want a flame war with you. I'm concerned about the general level of bad vibes in the Foundry as a whole, and the effect that has on newcomers. I think we can agree that if there is more constructive criticism, it will be for the better.

[yeti_c]

Agreeed - I'd like to raise Oliver FA as an example...

His latest forays into the Foundry have not only garnered a lot of interest - but his responses are polite, well thought out and thorough.

C.

[ZeakCytho]

Agreeed - I'd like to raise Oliver FA as an example...

His latest forays into the Foundry have not only garnered a lot of interest - but his responses are polite, well thought out and thorough.

C.

QFT, big time.

[InkL0sed]

Tom, your attitude towards giving feedback is incredibly disrespectful. You can be helpful without being a snob about it at the same time.

For example, I'm pretty sure I recognize that quote about bevels as yours. Instead of saying "the bevel sucks majorly, it looks like someone vomited on it", just say to "I don't like the way you used so much bevel". Offer an alternative for once.
And don't DEMAND - your one opinion is no greater than the mapmaker's.

[RjBeals]

If you don't like a map, you don't have to comment on it. If you think the map can be improved, make a comment that will aid in its improvement.

To a point. There's tons of maps that will obviously never get quenched. Way below cc standards. Somebody needs to comment and say, "...go practice some tutorials.. learn to use layers.... work on your borders.." Otherwise, a map could stagger on for months which is a waste of time for the mapmaker and the community.

If a person takes the time to follow some advice, and comes back with a workable draft - then I'm sure comments will be a lot more positive. Look at the Baltic States map. That guy didn't know a thing about graphics. He downloaded gimp, followed tutorials, and his map was coming along nicely.

Click image to enlarge.

In my opinion - it's almost as good as Portugal, which is a live map. (No offense to you gim).

Click image to enlarge.

[ZeakCytho]

And to expand on Rj's point, look at version 1 of Baltic States

Click image to enlarge.

[yeti_c]

Ha ha - Gimil got owned.

C.

[t-o-m]

Oliver is/was a new comer - however he did read the handbook, he did read the TTT, he did read XML tutorial, he did read other comments, and that's what they're there for.
He made a great explanation and knew what should go where and the way things go.
I dont see why any new comer cant make the same effort. They expect to make a map - but dont want to make any effort?
How does that work?

Everyone has common sense, some more than others, but they still have the intelligence to be able to observe and look how the maps are made.

If they dont put the effort in to help themselves then why should anyone make the effort with each individual who is too lazy to do anything for himself? ...and expect to make a map!?

My views are controversial i know, (and a lot of people wont like this post), but some people are just too 'polite' to tell them the hard way that we all know.

Agreeed - I'd like to raise Oliver FA as an example...

His latest forays into the Foundry have not only garnered a lot of interest - but his responses are polite, well thought out and thorough.

C.

[quote refers to top big^]

Ha ha - Gimil got owned.

(lol)

[Qwert]

well i give support in baltic state from begining,everyone can not create map who is great,even any image is good start.

Baltic state topic
QWERT Wrote
like your concept,you present map making proces like i do,step by step.
Go to Imperium romanum page 1,to see how i work.
Well you can also go to Western Front page 1.

these whas mine first draw of Western front,and your start is good,just go easy and everything will be ok.I dont understand why some people dont have patience with new map makers.

[RjBeals]

Qwert - I don't think anyone was referring to you. You normally do give positive constructive feedback..

[Qwert]

by RjBeals on Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:45 pm

Qwert - I don't think anyone was referring to you. You normally do give positive constructive feedback..

Misunderstanding RJBeals,these whas mine post in BAltic topic in begining,when i try to present new map maker how i start maps, and that every begining is hard, and that can not judge from first draft.

[Mjinga]

I admit, I tend to judge maps based on the first draft. No offence to people who make such first drafts, but if they look like the Baltic States first map, I think they look like crap. But I have no need to go and SAY that to them, because of course everyone realises that they won't get through that way. Why be negative when I can wait until someone actually has a style and I can make a useful suggestion at that time?

I can take the first five pages of my own map as an example of useless negativity. I posted a first draft that wasn't even nearly like the Baltic States first draft. It was a good first draft. And I got told I copied things I'd never even seen, I'd copied other maps, I did this, I did that, it sucked, and I should give it up. I didn't, because I'm a pigheaded person and obstacles are meant to be overcome in my worldview, but I could see whereby someone with a more delicate ego and less self-assurance (and no friend like Zeak to help keep up the cause -I love him muchly!) might give up. I mean, come on, people. Do you want new maps or not? If you do, give the new maps a chance! If not, gfy, cos I do.

I'm right there with e_i_pi on this issue. I haven't checked your map yet, e_i_pi, but just cos you got my vote here I'm interested in your map now.

[Qwert]

by Mjinga on Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:10 pm

I admit, I tend to judge maps based on the first draft. No offence to people who make such first drafts, but if they look like the Baltic States first map, I think they look like crap. But I have no need to go and SAY that to them, because of course everyone realises that they won't get through that way. Why be negative when I can wait until someone actually has a style and I can make a useful suggestion at that time?

I can take the first five pages of my own map as an example of useless negativity. I posted a first draft that wasn't even nearly like the Baltic States first draft. It was a good first draft. And I got told I copied things I'd never even seen, I'd copied other maps, I did this, I did that, it sucked, and I should give it up. I didn't, because I'm a pigheaded person and obstacles are meant to be overcome in my worldview, but I could see whereby someone with a more delicate ego and less self-assurance (and no friend like Zeak to help keep up the cause -I love him muchly!) might give up. I mean, come on, people. Do you want new maps or not? If you do, give the new maps a chance! If not, gfy, cos I do.

I'm right there with e_i_pi on this issue. I haven't checked your map yet, e_i_pi, but just cos you got my vote here I'm interested in your map now.

MIne first draft in Western front is same like Baltic states,and that i give hem support. But i when i start Western Front i all ready have quenched Eastern Front and people give me much biger support then Baltic map,because he is new map maker and people can not know what to expect from these map. So no need to rush with oppinion when is first draft not look so good.

[mibi]

Well the road to quenched maps is paved with a thick skin of resilience.


People will take pot shots at your point whether it is the first draft or it is post-quench. It's really no place to be coddled and cooed.

[oaktown]

this isn't a new discussion - some thoughts new and old...

1. the Foundry is tough on everybody... a lot of big egos running around here, and the established mapmakers (like me) all think that our shit don't stink. Then I post a map with mountains that look like tree roots and the sky comes crashing down around me.

2. the foundry has long been a tough place on newbs who aren't prepared for such biting remarks about their graphics. That's part of why we have created a CA position that focuses on drafts, so there can be a bit more official attention given to new drafts. It was long overlooked when gimil was pulling double-duty, and now that benn is in there I am confident that his will be a positive voice.

3. we all need to remember that just about every first draft is a disaster, regardless of the mapmaker; here's an example that is close to me heart:

Click image to enlarge.

[whitestazn88]

i don't understand why you call it being negative. giving constructive criticism is a natural part of life...

not everyone deserves a trophy, not even those 5 year olds in soccer tournaments who lose... it's bullshit if you think that everyone deserves a little pat on the back and a "good job!"

if you shit is shit, then i'm gonna call it shit and tell you what to do to make it stop stinking

[TaCktiX]

I think a lot of people forget that the name of this place is extremely appropriate: the Foundry. Every map is under constant peer review, with the best quality version either be hammered out like a fine piece of gold, or dropped by the wayside like dross. No criticism is ever truly personal (unless the mapmaker is averse to any changes to his map, at all), and it's all necessary to get to the ultimate goal: another killer-good map for Lack to upload for everyone to play on.

It's not pretty at points, but the Foundry does its job damn well.

[ZeakCytho]

if you shit is shit, then i'm gonna call it shit and tell you what to do to make it stop stinking

Problem is, there are plenty of times when people call it shit and don't give advice on how to fix it.

[benny profane]

For the sake of honesty, can we all just own up and admit that there is a world of difference between "I don't think this gameplay is going to work" and "This gameplay is stupidly crap"?
And it should be obvious that when e_i_pi suggests that maybe comments are a little too negative, he is, of course, not suggesting that we turn around and start breast feeding new map makers who are uninformed or unskilled, and wind up having an uncritical lovefest.
(To assume that's what he's saying is to use a lousy politician's tactic [see - last friday's debate])
I understand there are checks and balances in place to weed out the shoddy work, but really, insults aren't one of them.
The Foundry is not only a place for people who know how to make a map...it's also the place where people come to learn how to make a map. If that's too bothersome for folks, I don't know what to tell you. The people who are here now will not be here forever. We need to encourage new map makers, because they will be the ones to take our places.
Now, let's all turn to the good words of Morrissey for some wisdom and guidance...
"It's so easy to laugh
It's so easy to hate,
It takes strength to be gentle and kind"

[Mjinga]

For the sake of honesty, can we all just own up and admit that there is a world of difference between "I don't think this gameplay is going to work" and "This gameplay is stupidly crap"?
And it should be obvious that when e_i_pi suggests that maybe comments are a little too negative, he is, of course, not suggesting that we turn around and start breast feeding new map makers who are uninformed or unskilled, and wind up having an uncritical lovefest.
(To assume that's what he's saying is to use a lousy politician's tactic [see - last friday's debate])
I understand there are checks and balances in place to weed out the shoddy work, but really, insults aren't one of them.
The Foundry is not only a place for people who know how to make a map...it's also the place where people come to learn how to make a map. If that's too bothersome for folks, I don't know what to tell you. The people who are here now will not be here forever. We need to encourage new map makers, because they will be the ones to take our places.
Now, let's all turn to the good words of Morrissey for some wisdom and guidance...
"It's so easy to laugh
It's so easy to hate,
It takes strength to be gentle and kind"