Hole in the Wall rules discussion/ debate

[JJAPS2]

This tourament format is based on the new show "Hole in the Wall", on FOX. The object is to fit through a hole in a wall that is moving toward you, wanting to knock you into the water behind you. Most of the holes are outragously difficult to fit through.

Format:

The tourament will be 8 teams of 3 players each. They will play in a double elimination tourament.

Format per game:
MAP: To be debated
CARDS: none
TYPE: Triples
WEATHER: clear (no fog)
FREE MOVES: To be debated
STYLE: To be debated

GAME RULES:
The goal of each match is to score as many points as possible. This is accomplished by fitting through "holes" by occupying a specific set of territories.

NOTE: elimination of the opposition is not required, however it can help further victory.

Each match begins with a 2 round warm up phase. These are used for players to get into a strategic position.
At the start of round 3, the director will announce where the first "hole" is located. A hole is one or more territories that are adjacent (NOT including one way attacks). The goal of the teams is to get 1 player to fill in ALL the territories in the hole, but NOT ANY OF THE SURROUNDING TERRITORIES (that can attack into it). It's fine if a teammate controls the surrounding territories, but not the person "in the hole". If both of these are achieved, the hole is "cleared" in favor of the team in the hole, and scores. If the hole is not entirely owned by one person, or if the person in the hole owns a surrounding territory, the hole is "not clear" and there is no score.

TIMING OF HOLES:

Rounds 1-2 Warm up, no hole in effect.
End of Round 2 First "Solo wall" declared- one hole to be filled in by 1 player worth 1 point.
Rounds 3-4 Set Up time for players
End of Round 4 Judgement on previous wall and second solo wall declared. (NOTE: A team can only win 1 hole of a type, so only 1 solo wall can be scored)
Round 5-6 Set Up
End of Round 6 Judgement on previous wall and first duo wall declared- two holes to be filled by 2 SEPRATE players on the same team. If both are in, 2 points. IF ONLY ONE IS IN, NO POINTS.
Round 7-8 Setup
End of round 8 Judgement and second duo hole
round 9-10 Setup
end of round 10 judgement and first triple wall- follow the pattern, three holes, three players, three points
Round 11-12 setup
end of round 12 judgement and second triple wall
round 13-14 setup
end of round 14 judgement and first speed wall- similar to triple wall, except for 2 things, you only have 1 turn, and you score 2 points for EACH PLAYER THAT GETS A HOLE (this means both teams can score on one wall !!)
Round 15 setup
End of round 15 judgement and second speed wall (If both would score, the better one counts)
Round 16 setup
end of round 16 judgement and decision- if a team is leading they win, and the rest of the game is played for fun. If there is a tie, the rest of the game is played, under normal rules (no more holes), the team that is eliminated first loses.

NOTES:
1. Setup is the time players have to fight over the holes. The hole is only judged after the setup.
2. Holes are judged when the "involved" player takes his turn.
EX: I go last in a final setup round. Normally, I couldn't do anything, because I can't take over the entire hole and not have a territory adjacent to it. this rule means if I take over a hole, my teammates have 1 turn to get rid of any of my territories, thereby making me useful (it also gives the other team the ability to break into the hole to stop the point)

Eliminations:
If a player is eliminated, he can't make holes (obviously). This may make it impossible to fill in a triple or duo hole, or to score max points on a speed hole. If a team is eliminated, and losing in points, it can't pass the leading team, therefore making a decision. If the leading team is eliminated, the director will view the board and give the trailing team points depending on the remaining holes it could make. If the points put the trailing team ahead, they win (if not they lose). A tie gives a win to the non- eliminated team ( just like in sudden death)

I'm putting this up because I'm not sure how all the rules will affect the game, and how these rules should be adapted before we start play.
key areas of note:
1. reinforcement- a very important subject. unlimited would make it easier to make holes, while adj. makes it that much harder. What to do?
2. Map- the game is set up so the majority of players can last 16 turns, but conquer man is just too big. again, what to do?
3. the "important but hard to explain judgement rule". That NEEDS to be cleaned up, but I don't know how. . .
4. Style- freestyle is quicker, but traditional makes it easier for the "judgement rule" to take effect.
5. timing- not everyone is going to survive 16, but it could be better shortened.

Thank you for your time and input, this is my first tourney, and I am going out on a limb doing a very advanced game style, but I have thought of this for a while.

[dittoeevee8888]

I really don't understand this whole "holes" concept. It's quite confusing...perhaps a screenshot might make it easier to understand?

[JJAPS2]

Ok, a example of a hole. My computer dosen't like pictures that much, so I'll use a map and just use words.

Let's say that we're playing on the classic map, and the hole is congo and South America. You need to do two things:

1. Take over the hole territories (In this case Congo and South America)
2. You then have to get rid of any territory that can attack either of these territories (normally, adjacent territories) So, you CANNOT own madagascar, East Africa, and North Africa.

Think of the map as the wall, and the territories as part of your body. Your body must be in the hole, but if it sticks out, it will knock you off.

While using this example, I'll quickly explain the convolted rule at the end of the explanation.

Here is the Break down of the hole, in a hole fillers view (this is NOT a speed wall)

Turn 1- find out where the wall is. Start taking over area near hole ( you CAN take over the hole now if you wanted to, but it dosen't mean anything.

Turn 2- This turn you must take over the hole. If you don't fill it at the end of your turn, it's a no clear.
If you DO, Here's what has to happen:

1. Your 2 teammates must get rid of any territory you (the filler) have adjacent to the hole. If they can't do it in time, no clear.

2. You must survive during the 3 opponents turns. If they take over even one hole territory, it's a no clear for you, and potentially may have them fill the hole (in which case your team, including you, can block the point.

This means judgement is not necessarily at the exact end of a round, it may spill over into the next round (so you may have to do steps 1 or 2, AND set up for the next hole at the same time

Hope this helps

[SuicidalSnowman]

Wow, GREAT IDEA!

An easier way to describe it is similar to "King of the Hill" such as in first person shooters (Halo has this type).

I think it is great because you could play on a typical map, such as classic, but suddenly Ural could be the most strategic territory!

I also like the idea that you CANNOT own the surrounding territories.

The shifting of the hole is a good idea. It means changing strategies throughout the game. Also, lots of chances for comebacks.

Some problems I can forsee:

First of all, you are always losing armies when fighting. Unlimited forting may mean that by the end of the first hole everyone is completely decimiated, making for a slow and boring end.

I think your biggest problem is the whole 'judging' piece. How can you fairly select a new hole? This needs to be answered.
One possible solution is what some games use, such as Hex, where the player who moves first has a great advantage. In tournaments, after three moves the second player can choose to switch colors. Perhaps each team could submit a possible choice in secret, and until they both agreed, the game would not start?

[killmanic]

so the real only way for it to work is to have teammates attack each other?

[JJAPS2]

First, the question about fairness about holes. My idea was that all the teams would be playing the same map. All the maps will have the SAME hole selection BEFORE the start of the games. This would make it fair to all parties.

As for the unlimited fortification question, that is a good drawback. However, it also allows players to get armies to the hole more quickly. Now, wether that's a GOOD thing, I don't know. I think as of now chained is the best option.

As for the team attack question, that is correct. This means a lot of teamwork (interesting note: a one person team cannot score any points unless the opponents allow them to (b/c of the no territories next door rule).

And yes, this is King of the Hill, but there is the element of multiple holes, and you must get them ALL.

[Cherry pepsi?]

sounds like a good idea, like i like that show it's funny, but then again the concept is confusing, i just like the idea of a normal match of 3 on 3 to see who comes on top, but it still can be "hole in the wall" but just not hard to figure out you know

[JJAPS2]

First of all, thanks for the bump and your enthusiasm.

I have been pondering wether it may be too much to pull this off. A TD would have to be present every second to make sure to reveal the holes. However, then it's just a knockout tourament.

However, I have found a lot of solutions to problems. Here they are below:

Settings- adjacent. Too much chaos with freestyle, as teammates can take turns back to back

Timing/map- I did the 2 hole thing because there was technically two walls per team. However, instead of doing that, I was thinking of 2 games at the same time. This would allow me to cut the time into half (as well as perhaps extending the reaction times a little). The same rules would apply, only 1 wall scores per round (as the games will go on simultaneously) For this reason, the map problem is gone, because 6-9 rounds is much more managable than 12. So any map will do.

Cards- Flat rate. Although not attacking is destructive already, let's make sure we get the point across.

The judging final rule that is messed up- OK, I think I know how to explain it (as well as put this into practice)

Let's say that it's the end of round 2. We are about to start round 3. At this time we look at only the hole (NOT the territories surrounding it)

If it's controlled by more than 1 person, it's a no clear

If it is controlled by 1 person, two things must happen before it is scored.

1. It must REMAIN in control of the person, untill it comes back to their turn. If even 1 territory is taken over, no clear.

2. The teammates must clear out any surrounding territories, again before the next turn of the person, if they can't, no clear.

If BOTH of these are met, then it is cleared.

For tourament purposes, I will use chat messages, with both teams confirming what is happening during the game.

Expls: (Each is the first hole of a seperate game. Team A is always potentially scoring)

HOLE 1- conflict at turn 3
A: The hole is controlled by multiple parties. No clear.
B: statement confirmed. No clear

HOLE 2- controled completly by turn 3, but then broken by takeover
At hole takeover:
A: (name of player) has control of hole.
B: Statement confirmed.
---------------------------
At time of takeover:
B: By capture of (territory), the hole is broken. No clear
A: statement confirmed. No clear.

HOLE 3- Controled completly, but adjecent terrirory owned:
At hole takeover:
Same as part 1 above.
------------------
At Person's turn:
B( or A): (Terrirory) owned next to hole. No clear
A (or B): Statement confirmed. no clear

HOLE 4- score

At hole takeover- same as Part 1 above
---------------
At person's turn
A: hole is still controlled, and no territory next to hole owned. Clear for A
B: Statement confirmed. # points for A.

HOLE 5- a (alleged) attempt to lie
At NOT hole takeover
A: Hole is controlled by one person.
B: Statement objected. The territory (Territory) is owned by (Person).
TD:
If A is wrong,
Objection sustained. No clear
If A is right,
Objection Overruled. hole owned by (player). (it's not a clear yet)

WHY CHAT? well, because I can't moniter every game during every second of the day. This allows for easy resolution of holes. Obviously, if there is confusion, the TD has the final say.

Any questions about chat system, or anything in general (including selection of map) is welcomed. Almost set to start sign ups!!

[amazzony]

You mean human tetris This is incredibly funny. Here's a Japanese version (I think it was "invented" in Japan), I don't understand a word but I laugh every time I watch it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll2kajMH2u0

I'll read about the tournament tomorrow and comment it

[amazzony]

Alright, I read it through and I think it is an interesting concept and I actually understood most of it But I'm not sure how easy it will be to attract players because it still might be confusing and as somebody mentioned in the thread - most teams are looking for simple games - kill and win. So, I would suggest you to keep it small and forget Flat Rate - strong teams don't like it because it evolves too much luck.

I really have nothing else to say - just good luck with it and may it be a successful tournament! Have patience and time to run it and even if things don't go smoothly right away then don't give up


~amazzony

[JJAPS2]

Thanks for the comments. I think people will know what king of the hill is, so it will (hopefully) not be as convluted as it has been in my first draft. Also, I will take heed of the flat rate, and just get rid of cards alltogether.

Thinking to move to the sign-up phase sometime during the long weekend.

BTW- Kill and win still works. If you excell in blitzkrieg tactics, you can eliminate the opposing team before they have a chance to score a lot of points, and basically give you a easy win (But, you still have to focus on the holes a bit.)

I am also considering announcing all the holes at the start. Although it takes away a lot, it also makes my job a lot easier (I sometimes play once every 25 hours, and that may not be good)

*edit- more info added below*

They came out with human tetris on FOX, and they decided to name it hole in the wall. It's the same game (as far as I know, I can't read japanese )