Renegades [Busted]

[codeblue1018]

C'MON MODS, SPEAK UP! I CANT HEAR YA?!!?!??!!?!

Why would they speak up Nik? - They all condone this. Lack gets more money this way; sad but true!

[Renegades]

The score wasn't reset because the use of multies was not Harmful in any way??

As said I ONLY used a new account so I could continue to play my beloved game! I even bought premiums to support the site, I'm not making a secret of my identity either, i don't see why this is a bad thing..

[dividedbyzero]

The score wasn't reset because the use of multies was not Harmful in any way??

As said I ONLY used a new account so I could continue to play my beloved game! I even bought premiums to support the site, I'm not making a secret of my identity either, i don't see why this is a bad thing..

Part of the issue is bigger than you - serial cheaters are allowed to continue cheating as long as they keep paying Lack for the privilege of cheating. There's no incentive to stop because as long as you can keep shelling out $25, a cheater can rebuy and rebuy access. This is a bigger issue that needs to be addressed.

The smaller issue is that when a cheater is allowed to get a new identity, it bypasses the foe list and the reputation/feedback one has acquired. For instance, there are a lot of people that probably put the Warsteiner account on foe because that account was part of cheating. You have now bypassed that and not given people their right to not play you ahead of time. They may join a game with Renegades not knowing that it's really Warsteiner. Likewise, they may not have Renegades on their ignore, though they do Warsteiner.

The smaller issue (which is very much part of the larger issue) is that a cheater should only be able to re-up on the original account. And even then, it shouldn't be unlimited. It's detrimental to the majority of players that actually play by the rules and want fair play in return.

[Big Yuma Ripper]

Hmm should be like it was in the old century, thieves, whores, vandals and so on once caught had to wear a banner around there neck every where they went stating to the public what they were....same should be done here, put a cheater avatar on there profile make it known to the public that might not otherwise have a clue about the problems with this person. That is if the Mods, Lack or whom ever controls letting them back in is going to continue spatting them on the hand and letting them back in. People might screw up once and get caught, score should be reset and points taken away. Second time the IP address should be blocked from the site no questions asked!!!!
Renegade or whom ever you go by now, as far as i know i have never played with or against you? But you say what does it hurt well it hurts this...obviously you are a good player, so is it fair to use your low score, play a high ranked player and win thus them losing 40, 50 or more points....NO. Ok if you win then you win but you are gaining an unfair point scew because of the low score? You would lose 4 or 5 points so no risk to you....But its not about the points completely it's the principle of the whole thing...no body likes a cheater. And really what have you done if you got 6,000 points from cheating, any satisfaction in that?

[BaldAdonis]

same should be done here, put a cheater avatar on there profile make it known to the public that might not otherwise have a clue about the problems with this person.

Yes... there's no reasonable way to stop players from returning (and if they played without opening new accounts, on a new IP, there's no way anyone would know), but if you limit them to one account and brand it, then at least everyone else will know. Maybe you can set up an automatic foe list as well, to save everyone the trouble. Just opt in and you'll never have to play anyone who was busted.

[TeeGee]

The score wasn't reset because the use of multies was not Harmful in any way??

As said I ONLY used a new account so I could continue to play my beloved game! I even bought premiums to support the site, I'm not making a secret of my identity either, i don't see why this is a bad thing..

It also gives you access to play people who have your other accounts on their foe list. People foe you for a reason.

If Conquer club wish to take the stance that its OK to multi if you pay for the privilidge (unless of course you are jan1976, or someone else they don't like) then I will have to look elsewhere for my conquering games

[nikola_milicki]

C'MON MODS, SPEAK UP! I CANT HEAR YA?!!?!??!!?!

Why would they speak up Nik? - They all condone this. Lack gets more money this way; sad but true!

Yea, but we deserve an explanation and immediate resolution of this fuckup, if not for any other reason then because of the fact that we are paying customers!!!

[codeblue1018]

C'MON MODS, SPEAK UP! I CANT HEAR YA?!!?!??!!?!

Why would they speak up Nik? - They all condone this. Lack gets more money this way; sad but true!

Yea, but we deserve an explanation and immediate resolution of this fuckup, if not for any other reason then because of the fact that we are paying customers!!!

What we deserve and what we'll get are two wholly separate issues with the leadership on this site. Agreed Nik but good luck on trying to solicit an explanation. Pointless. According to their logic, Warsteiner/Renegades and whatever else he uses is also a paying customer. Pathetic

[Frop]

Warsteiner isn't the worst perpetrator of the bunch, I just used his example to bring up a few other inconsistencies. I'll probably start a separate thread in GD later tonight.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

christ

this guy has done nothing but cheat since day 1 with any account he owns or has access too and he is still permitted to play here ?

Whats next...the return of Manimal ?

[dividedbyzero]

christ

this guy has done nothing but cheat since day 1 with any account he owns or has access too and he is still permitted to play here ?

Whats next...the return of Manimal ?

Hell, isn't manimal back every other day or so ?

I am curious as to who really to complain to about the multi buyback abuse. I wonder if Twill and company might weigh in here ? This isn't Lance, FP, or King Achilles issue...it's Lack and Twill, really. How often should offenders get to keep abusing the system and coming back ?

-0

[porkenbeans]

so banned cheaters are allowed to come back if they make a new account and pay premium, hmm....

You just learning this ?

[king achilles]

These questions regarding this matter have already been brought to the attention of the webmaster so he could look into this and evaluate the issues you have brought up. Please do not forget that this is a privately owned website and the webmaster or the admin can update the rules or policies as they see fit. If there had been a different judgment in a past case compared to this one, didn't it occur to you that lackattack or the administrators may have updated how we would deal with certain situations? Maybe some subjects are just too sensitive to discuss openly to the public and our actions speaks louder than our words. I hear your complaints and the faults that you see here which is why I have already forwarded this to the webmaster himself. No system is perfect and there will always be someone out there finding loopholes to criticize or manipulate. Rest assure that we will continue to hold the rules regarding multis and the like.

[Renegades]

I just want to make clear that I'm not trying to abuse anything. About the Foe thing, since I havent played on warsteiner in a long time I guess being on Foe lists of some is very outdated and the real 'enemies' that really care would already put me on their Foe atm. In fact there's more ppl that have me on their Foe now than when I was on Warsteiner simply because some players fear a bigger points loss (forgetting that I don't have the skill I used to.).

I did open a support ticket to ask for a solution for my problem, i did not get any response so tired of waiting I bought a premium back on Renegades in order to continue playing this game.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I just want to make clear that I'm not trying to abuse anything. About the Foe thing, since I havent played on warsteiner in a long time I guess being on Foe lists of some is very outdated and the real 'enemies' that really care would already put me on their Foe atm. In fact there's more ppl that have me on their Foe now than when I was on Warsteiner simply because some players fear a bigger points loss (forgetting that I don't have the skill I used to.).

I did open a support ticket to ask for a solution for my problem, i did not get any response so tired of waiting I bought a premium back on Renegades in order to continue playing this game.

the only problem not answered is the fact that you are here

* my sig never gets old

[Jeff Hardy]

quote]the only problem not answered is the fact that you are here

* my sig never gets old

what exactly do you dislike about him?

[jiminski]

These questions regarding this matter have already been brought to the attention of the webmaster so he could look into this and evaluate the issues you have brought up. Please do not forget that this is a privately owned website and the webmaster or the admin can update the rules or policies as they see fit. If there had been a different judgment in a past case compared to this one, didn't it occur to you that lackattack or the administrators may have updated how we would deal with certain situations? Maybe some subjects are just too sensitive to discuss openly to the public and our actions speaks louder than our words. I hear your complaints and the faults that you see here which is why I have already forwarded this to the webmaster himself. No system is perfect and there will always be someone out there finding loopholes to criticize or manipulate. Rest assure that we will continue to hold the rules regarding multis and the like.

I know Achilles and that really boils down to the "Lack is a good guy, doing his best!" argument. I agree with that argument, he is a good guy under a lot of strain at present.

But the site has serious problems now. i realise that it always has had and that each new day brings 'the biggest problem ever'.. until tomorrow... but reflect upon the past few months a little.... did you? .. Well done, now tell me we do not have genuine problems in need of address.
These problems need to be dealt with directly but also symbolically in the vehemence of their tone!

Now there is a mistrust of the persona of the site, it is perceived to be inefficient and dubious in character.
Aside from everything else, which we will not address here, the good-will of the public is all but spent. And the commonplace practice of allowing cheats to re-buy and re-buy and re-buy again! adds to the swelling reservoir of mistrust and ill-will.

I was/am in a game with JCKing .. i had no knowledge that he re-bought and changed his name (JesusReigns was it?). Subsequently the questionable moves of others which handed the Cheat the game, were placed under a shadow by his mere presence .. "who am i actually playing here?.. Christ this could feasibly be me and 5 multis using proxy servers!"

Is this problem of perception due to Wickid and HP and Albuquerque!?
A little bit.. but in any PR disaster it is up to the man at the helm to reassure and take dramatic action to redress any semblance of foul-play!

Have we seen this? Not really! Though i did take heart in the creative manner in which Max was banned..... haha look now though! a re-buy and he is 2nd on the scoreboard! No point reset .. nothing of any help to anyone else but the site!

What we have seen is the site persona under serious attack in the past while (it has my good wishes and unyielding offer of support) and it crawling into a ball and hoping the assailant will move on eventually before the attack is fatal. That is likely coupled with Lacks sense that perhaps this shit is not worth it. I empathise with that! but the raison d'etre of this site is the gaming, the rest is simply fanciful distraction. If the faith in who we are playing and what we are playing is lost; the site is lost.

The site will carry-on in the short-term but will it grow or will it shrink to die in the long?
"Bah you exaggerate jim!.. except for a couple of hundred people in the forums who ever knows this crap about multis?"
True enough Jiminy Cricket!! but you must consider the cumulative affects on the whole site from a variety of fundamental changes. This has reached further than the words of a few disgruntled cyber-geek-terrorists and career forum moaners. This infestation is being allowed to grow unchecked and eventually it will be all-consuming.


So the ship needs to be treated for wood-worm! At the moment the site focuses on banning Forum smart-arses because they are an easy and visible target. Their ban also does not breach the contract to play, after-all - forums are an 'added bonus!'

But what really needs to be addressed are the habitual Cheats, Farmers and Blackguards who rub our noses in their misdeeds from the top of the Scoreboards and without sanction!
"Get caught!? Hah it's ok! .. I'll re-buy! hey I'll even change my name so my enemies will play me in their ignorance!.. Suckers! Cheats always prosper!"
Well no doubt these guys only cheat themselves in reality! However the perception is that Cheats are allowed to prosper because it allows the site to prosper!

The cumulative affects are serious!

This ship needs to find a rudder and it needs to plot a course. It also needs to tell the passengers and crew where the bloody hell we are sailing to.. or if we should alight at the next port of call.


I bid you all fair-well!

[lackattack]

I think the concept of one "re-buy" is fair and balanced. For one thing, even if we really beleive someone is a multi we can never be certain and this gives the busted a chance to prove themselves. It also gives the guilty a second chance, which should be acceptable to the rest of us since people who put their money where their mouth is are far less likely to f*ck around afterwards.

The downside is that people who are busted sometimes think we're trying to extort $$ out of them and some people who follow the C&A forum think we put greed before justice. Beleive me, the % of our income that comes from "re-buys" is insignificant. I didn't make this policy because of greed, it's because I think it's balanced.

Now I agree that multiple re-buys pose a problem. At this point people are taking advantage and abusing our merciful system.

One workaround I thought of is for the multi hunters to give permanent website bans to multis after they're re-busted (website bans block premium purchases), but that's not practical because each multi has do be banned separately and more multis can come afterwards... trust me it would really complicate the multi hunters job beyond reason.

What we really need is a code change to block people from multiple re-buys. I've got it on my to-do list, I'll get to it when I can. Don't forget there are all sorts of areas on this website that need my attention and I have to prioritize.

[TeeGee]

Suspect:
Renegades

Verdict: Busted for multiple accounts along with Milow1 and Warsteiner.

This is where I see the problem.

A)The original account was busted as a multi with Milow1.
B) User then creates a third account
C) Third account gets busted with previous 2 accounts
D) User pays for premium on third account

As much as I think once a cheat always a cheat, I respect the sites 1 rebuy policy provided it is used on the original account.
Creating a 3rd account here has shown deception.

[jiminski]

I think the concept of one "re-buy" is fair and balanced. For one thing, even if we really beleive someone is a multi we can never be certain and this gives the busted a chance to prove themselves. It also gives the guilty a second chance, which should be acceptable to the rest of us since people who put their money where their mouth is are far less likely to f*ck around afterwards.

The downside is that people who are busted sometimes think we're trying to extort $$ out of them and some people who follow the C&A forum think we put greed before justice. Beleive me, the % of our income that comes from "re-buys" is insignificant. I didn't make this policy because of greed, it's because I think it's balanced.

Now I agree that multiple re-buys pose a problem. At this point people are taking advantage and abusing our merciful system.

One workaround I thought of is for the multi hunters to give permanent website bans to multis after they're re-busted (website bans block premium purchases), but that's not practical because each multi has do be banned separately and more multis can come afterwards... trust me it would really complicate the multi hunters job beyond reason.

What we really need is a code change to block people from multiple re-buys. I've got it on my to-do list, I'll get to it when I can. Don't forget there are all sorts of areas on this website that need my attention and I have to prioritize.

ok... i understand your exasperation Lack, I am not trying to be difficult. Treat this as my parting attempt to help in my usual manner which does not seem to help.

But ask yourself how your well balanced post addresses the problems of perception.
It does not in my oppinion (for what it is worth), it expounds them and in many ways illustrates their core.

Your post tells me that you are bloody frustrated and can not believe that these things just never bloody go away.. and that we truly do not understand that our greedy need for action does not accept the reality. (PRIORITIZE people!.. but when i go to look at that to-do list i get blinded by all the moths flying to the light of my personality!)

I am certain that you make sod all out of re-buys. But the policy is there as you are never really sure if anyone is guilty?
Bloody hell man.. where are we around here!?

And what of this new policy of allowing the busted to keep another name on re-buy? Are we saying that this is ok as we are not really sure if it was the other guy who we busted anyway.. ?

I don't know mate.. maybe the forums are more trouble than they are worth.. (hah i certainly feel that way!!!)

What we do not know can not hurt us.

[Frop]

even if we really beleive someone is a multi we can never be certain

Provide sufficient logging and it should be possible to be 99,9% certain someone's a multi.

One workaround I thought of is for the multi hunters to give permanent website bans to multis after they're re-busted (website bans block premium purchases), but that's not practical because each multi has do be banned separately and more multis can come afterwards... trust me it would really complicate the multi hunters job beyond reason.

I find it hard to believe that most multis are smart enough to come up with multiple IPs. Blocking IPs should be standard practice and I can't see how this would complicate things, not to mention the fact you should start out by blocking known proxies.

What we really need is a code change to block people from multiple re-buys. I've got it on my to-do list, I'll get to it when I can. Don't forget there are all sorts of areas on this website that need my attention and I have to prioritize.

No matter what the problem, no matter where it's posted - there's always something else that needs attention first. What a coincidence.

[lancehoch]

even if we really beleive someone is a multi we can never be certain

Provide sufficient logging and it should be possible to be 99,9% certain someone's a multi.

99.9% is still not 100% Frop, that is what he is saying. There is no way to get to 100% certainty.

[Frop]

even if we really beleive someone is a multi we can never be certain

Provide sufficient logging and it should be possible to be 99,9% certain someone's a multi.

99.9% is still not 100% Frop, that is what he is saying. There is no way to get to 100% certainty.

Exactly, since 100% is impossible 99,9% is good enough. Doesn't every judicial system allow some margin of error by default?

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

Suspect:
Renegades

Verdict: Busted for multiple accounts along with Milow1 and Warsteiner.

This is where I see the problem.

A)The original account was busted as a multi with Milow1.
B) User then creates a third account
C) Third account gets busted with previous 2 accounts
D) User pays for premium on third account

As much as I think once a cheat always a cheat, I respect the sites 1 rebuy policy provided it is used on the original account.
Creating a 3rd account here has shown deception.

dont forget all the accounts he was blocked with for cheating. not only the example in my sig but the classic excuse "its my roomate and he learned from me".

[Renegades]

We still completely forget what the rules are about here. The rules are to prevent cheating and abuse of multiple accounts in order to gain more points for instance. In my case it has nothing to do with that at all, simply wanting to continue playing the game when losing acces to my first account.