Eastern Hemisphere [Quenched]

[The Viking]

Am I the only one who doesn't like the ocean?

[pamoa]

yes you are

[ZeakCytho]

I don't mind the oceans - just the mountains

[asl80]

the oceans and the mountains are beautiful ... i am not suggesting this for you to consider, i am alerting you to the truth as an act of mind control. repeat; the oceans and the mountains are beautiful.
I'm sure they are both here to stay, learn to love 'em.
hehe

I'd assume that oaktown would be after gamplay or graphics questions not related to the style, or even the gameplay in general, but to those little things in the graphics that make the gameboard ambiguous or hard to decipher, and the gameplay issues that demonstrate that it is currently flawed ... could be improved by ......... etc.

So ... "the cogs in the foundry go round and round, round and round, the cogs in the foundry go round and round, round and round, all the way to the forge!"

[oaktown]

Why dont you connect abyssinnia or somaliland to the ottoman empire and up the bonus to +2

I proposed that a while ago, but the idea got no traction. In the end I like the notion of Africa having at least one region that is easy to hold, because otherwise Japan is the only easy hold on the entire map.

[iancanton]

North Africa as +3 or +4... Africa in classic is a rather stingy +3, with 6 territories and 3 defense points. This has an extra border to defend, plus 8 enemy territories on its borders. I think +4 is warranted, especially given that a larger map can absorb larger bonuses.

the chinese empire has 7 territories (one more than north africa), of which 4 are border territories (just like north africa), which implies that a +5 bonus, the same as north africa, is fully justified.

the oceania bonus looks too high compared with the others. in a multiplayer game, its position in the corner makes it a highly-desirable starting position: the two territories that can attack it directly are mutually adjacent and might well be held by a single friendly player. compared with classic africa, there is one more territory, but one fewer border territory, which more than outweighs this (the netherlands player could bombard through the ship, but the netherlands could equally be held by the oceania player himself for +2 or be neutral). reducing the bonus to +3 will balance things out (+2 might be overdoing it).

the term south-east asia has never included india. southern asia encompasses the whole bonus region (but not south asia, which stops at the india-burma border and excludes the countries further east).

ian.

[yeti_c]

I saw someone refer to Korea as South East Asia the other day?!

C.

[el-presidente]

The island north of st. Petersburg is too thin. It makes it look weird.

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

the chinese empire has 7 territories (one more than north africa), of which 4 are border territories (just like north africa), which implies that a +5 bonus, the same as north africa, is fully justified.

Agreed... changed.

the oceania bonus looks too high compared with the others... reducing the bonus to +3 will balance things out (+2 might be overdoing it).

On this I disagree... keep in mind that both Sumatra and Java can be whacked by the sea power territory - two borders which will have to be defended, yet from which you can never advance. I think that a seven territory region with 4 spots to defend is well worthy of a +4.

the term south-east asia has never included india. southern asia encompasses the whole bonus region (but not south asia, which stops at the india-burma border and excludes the countries further east).

Nice catch... changed to Southern Asia.

The island north of st. Petersburg is too thin. It makes it look weird.

Sure does... in fact I meant to redraw the entire Russian coastline to make it less flat. Done.

[yeti_c]

Click image to enlarge.

the chinese empire has 7 territories (one more than north africa), of which 4 are border territories (just like north africa), which implies that a +5 bonus, the same as north africa, is fully justified.

Agreed... changed.

Er - North Africa has a +4 bonus?

C.

[asl80]

good to see this getting some attention again ... keep going ol' oaktown.

[Lupo]

Hello, I found this map really interessing and with very good graphics.

since we're talking about the beginning of 20th century, I would like to say that it would be possible to introduce a sixth colonial power: Italy

Italian Colonies: Abyssinia, Somaliland, Tripoli

This is just a suggestion, let me know if you like or not my idea, thanks.


PS: I ask you sorry in advance in the case this proposal has been already made in the preveious posts.

[gho]

I think you should remove either the sumatra or java link and add a german flag to new guinea, they owned the northern part of the island until ww1, it would make oceania a bit more insecure and the armies from either sumatra or java could not be used to take back the territory (as the netherlands should have at least 4 troops less after the bombardment)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_New_Guinea

[oaktown]

Wow, a small update and there's a sudden flurry of activity!

Hello, I found this map really interessing and with very good graphics.

One more voice in the "i like the graphics" camp - I think it's about 50/50.

since we're talking about the beginning of 20th century, I would like to say that it would be possible to introduce a sixth colonial power: Italy

Italian Colonies: Abyssinia, Somaliland, Tripoli

I like it... I'll try and squeeze it all in.

I think you should remove either the sumatra or java link and add a german flag to new guinea, they owned the northern part of the island until ww1, it would make oceania a bit more insecure and the armies from either sumatra or java could not be used to take back the territory (as the netherlands should have at least 4 troops less after the bombardment)

Not sure I understood the part about the links... you saying to remove sumatra or java from the dutch empire?

I think we've discussed New Guinea before, and the trouble is that it is part German, part British, and part Dutch... the island could be three territories, but I don't think that's going to be practical for a CC map. So, then, do we make it part of all three empires? Again, I don't think this would be practical.

the chinese empire has 7 territories (one more than north africa), of which 4 are border territories (just like north africa), which implies that a +5 bonus, the same as north africa, is fully justified.

Er - North Africa has a +4 bonus?

Sure does... maybe Ian meant Southern Africa? It's a +5. Anyway, I'm alright with the African regions having slightly low values, since they can be coupled with so many Empire bonuses... you hold Southern Africa and Portugal, and you receive +7; add Germany and you're up to an epic +10 for 11 territories. The addition of Italy will make the Horn more valuable, and Horn and Northern Africa will be a pretty good pairing in themselves.

Let me get to work on Italy...

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

Ta da!

Gameplay changes:
• Italian Empire has now been added.
• Attack route from Italy to Tripoli added.

Please note that while the other four-territory Empires are a +3, I've made Italian only a +2. I did this because the Italian Empire is very compact, all being in North Africa/just across the Med. By adding the attack route it makes the region two sets of pairs, split only by a single territory between them. In addition, by adding just one more territory the Italian player also holds the Horn bonus, making it a +3 for five territories, which I think is respectable... +4 may be high.

Graphics changes:
• Took some liberties with "Horn of Africa" region title... there was no way the full size text would fit with the addition of that flag, and this looked better than abbreviating or just writing "Horn."
• Description of Naval Superiority is a point size larger.
• Bottom left legend box re-organized.

[gimil]

Southern Asia and the middle east are far to similar in colour.

I'm in the 'I like the graphics' camp. But I still hate the mountains

I like the way the mountains look in the alps, they seem to look different in thte alps to everywhere else. But it still seems everyone else is satisfied so I will shup up about it for now

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

Southern Asia and the middle east are far to similar in colour.

indeed... I've upped the opacity on all of the inner glows to avoid any confusion. Southern Asia is now a bit rosier, and middle east darker and a bit more bluish.

I'm in the 'I like the graphics' camp. But I still hate the mountains

I like the way the mountains look in the alps, they seem to look different in thte alps to everywhere else. But it still seems everyone else is satisfied so I will shup up about it for now

Really? The Alps are the section of mountains that i like the least!

Hmmm... the right-hand legend looks cluttered now that the left legend is spaced-out... I'll have that in a few minutes.

[iancanton]

Gameplay changes:
• Italian Empire has now been added.
• Attack route from Italy to Tripoli added.

the italian invasion of ethiopia, known in english at the time as abyssinia, was defeated at the battle of adowa in 1896. ethiopia was subsequently recognised as an independent country till 1935.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/Pla ... =ab92#2120

Menelik leads some 70,000 men on the long journey north from Addis Ababa. When the armies meet, at Aduwa on 1 March 1896, the Italians suffer the most humiliating and bloody defeat ever experienced by a colonial power in Africa.

When news of the disaster reaches Italy, there are riots in the streets. Within two weeks the prime minister is replaced. Before the end of the year the new Italian government climbs down on the issue of the supposed protectorate, accepting now the full independence of Menelik's Ethiopia.

remove abyssinia from italian empire?

similarly, tripoli was part of the ottoman empire in 1910, though we could set our map in 1914 (like the other two ww1 maps currently in the foundry) so that tripoli (libya) becomes italian and the attack route from italy makes sense.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/Pla ... oryid=aa83

In 1911 Italy finds a trumped-up reason to send a 24-hour-ultimatum to Istanbul, demanding the presence of Italian troops in Tripolitania and Cyrenaica to protect the local Italian population. This is followed a day later by a declaration of war and almost immediate invasion of north Africa.

The Italians make relatively little headway, partly because of a spirited resistance by the Sennusi tribesmen on behalf of their imperial masters, who at least are fellow Muslims. But by the autumn of 1912 Turkey, beset by troubles elsewhere, is ready to concede.

ian.

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

The poor Italians... so after only two updates they lose Abyssinia. Since Hannibal it's been one humbling military blow after another for my people. At least now the +2 is definitely justified.

Note that the "1910" was pulled from the title, so if Italy held tripoli just after that it's fine on this map.

Ian - let me know if you think we're doing anything that warrants yanking that gameplay stamp.

[iancanton]

although i've made several contributions to various bits of the map, mrbenn has been in charge of stamping this one, so he probably has a better idea of its overall stampworthiness at the moment.

Oh, and MrBenn holds the Gameplay stamp for this map - I should do what he wants!

ian.

[pamoa]

Speaking about "minor" colonization nations, what about Belgian Congo which seems to me having far more profitable than Italian "for the prestige" colonies

[oaktown]

Speaking about "minor" colonization nations, what about Belgian Congo which seems to me having far more profitable than Italian "for the prestige" colonies

An Italian empire was much easier to add, as it didn't require any additional territories... I'm not sure Europe would be playable if we squeezed in Belgium. And Northern Africa would get messy if we included the Spanish Sahara and Morocco. And New Guinea would be messy if we split it between the three powers that held it for a time. Etc. At some point we have to draw the line for the sake of being able to figure everything out.

A fun companion map to this would be a Scramble for Africa map, with the European powers and Africa only.

[gho]

Wasn't china split up at this time also between the powers, or would this get too confusing?

[oaktown]

Wasn't china split up at this time also between the powers, or would this get too confusing?

At least in name, China was a sovereign empire. There were some bits carved out like Hong Kong, and we dabbled with that a few pages back, but it was just to small to rate.

And because some of you are weird and like this stuff, the XML checks out with the latest updates. If somebody wants to check to see that I the starting positions right, bless your heart. Coordinates I'll do once we're 'Forging' ahead.

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<map>
	<title>Hemisphere</title>
	<smallwidth>630</smallwidth>
	<smallheight>600</smallheight>
	<largewidth>840</largewidth>
	<largeheight>800</largeheight>
	<filetype>jpg</filetype>

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Great Britain</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Germany</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Netherlands</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Austria-Hungary</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Italy</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>France</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Portugal</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Spain</territory>
   </position>
</positions>

	<continent>
		<name>Europe</name>
		<bonus>8</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Iceland</territory>
			<territory>Great Britain</territory>
			<territory>Norway</territory>
			<territory>Sweden</territory>
			<territory>Germany</territory>
			<territory>Netherlands</territory>
			<territory>Austria-Hungary</territory>
			<territory>Balkans</territory>
			<territory>Italy</territory>
			<territory>France</territory>
			<territory>Spain</territory>
			<territory>Portugal</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>

	<continent>
		<name>Northern Africa</name>
		<bonus>4</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Morocco</territory>
			<territory>French West Africa</territory>
			<territory>Tripoli</territory>
			<territory>Liberia</territory>
			<territory>Nigeria</territory>
			<territory>Egypt and Sudan</territory>
			</components>
	</continent>

	<continent>
		<name>Horn of Africa</name>
		<bonus>1</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Somaliland</territory>	
			<territory>Abyssinia</territory>
			<territory>British East Africa</territory>
			</components>
	</continent>

	<continent>
		<name>Southern Africa</name>
		<bonus>5</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Cameroon</territory>
			<territory>Congo</territory>
			<territory>German East Africa</territory>
			<territory>German South West Africa</territory>
			<territory>Rhodesia</territory>
			<territory>Angola</territory>
			<territory>Madagascar</territory>
			<territory>South Africa</territory>
			<territory>Portuguese East Africa</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>

	<continent>
		<name>Russian Empire</name>
		<bonus>9</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>St. Petersburg</territory>
			<territory>Finland</territory>
			<territory>Vilno</territory>
			<territory>Warsaw</territory>
			<territory>Ukraine</territory>
			<territory>Moscow</territory>
			<territory>Kazan</territory>
			<territory>Caucasus</territory>
			<territory>Turkestan</territory>
			<territory>Omsk</territory>
			<territory>Irkutsk</territory>
			<territory>Amur</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>

	<continent>
		<name>Middle East</name>
		<bonus>3</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Ottoman Empire</territory>
			<territory>Arabia</territory>
			<territory>Persia</territory>
			<territory>Afghanistan</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>

	<continent>
		<name>Chinese Empire</name>
		<bonus>5</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Manchuria</territory>
			<territory>Mongolia</territory>
			<territory>Sinkiang</territory>
			<territory>Peking</territory>
			<territory>Tibet</territory>
			<territory>Shanghai</territory>
			<territory>Canton</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>

	<continent>
		<name>Oceania</name>
		<bonus>4</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Philippine Islands</territory>
			<territory>Borneo</territory>
			<territory>New Guinea</territory>
			<territory>Sumatra</territory>
			<territory>Java</territory>
			<territory>Australia</territory>
			<territory>New Zealand</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>
		
	<continent>
		<name>Japanese Empire</name>
		<bonus>2</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Japan</territory>
			<territory>Korea</territory>
			<territory>Karafuto</territory>
			<territory>Taiwan</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>
	
	<continent>
		<name>British Empire</name>
		<bonus>6</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Great Britain</territory>
			<territory>Rhodesia</territory>
			<territory>South Africa</territory>
			<territory>Nigeria</territory>
			<territory>India</territory>
			<territory>Egypt and Sudan</territory>
			<territory>British East Africa</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>	
	
	<continent>
		<name>Portuguese Empire</name>
		<bonus>2</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Portugal</territory>
			<territory>Angola</territory>
			<territory>Portuguese East Africa</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>
	
	<continent>
		<name>French Empire</name>
		<bonus>3</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>France</territory>
			<territory>Madagascar</territory>
			<territory>Indochina</territory>
			<territory>French West Africa</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>	
	
	<continent>
		<name>German Empire</name>
		<bonus>3</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Germany</territory>
			<territory>Cameroon</territory>
			<territory>German South West Africa</territory>
			<territory>German East Africa</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>		
	
	<continent>
		<name>Dutch Empire</name>
		<bonus>2</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Netherlands</territory>
			<territory>Sumatra</territory>
			<territory>Java</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>		

	<continent>
		<name>Italian Empire</name>
		<bonus>2</bonus>
		<components>
			<territory>Italy</territory>
			<territory>Tripoli</territory>
			<territory>Somaliland</territory>
		</components>
	</continent>		
	
	<territory>
		<name>Iceland</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Norway</border>
			<border>Great Britain</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Great Britain</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Iceland</border>
			<border>France</border>
			<border>Naval Superiority</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Norway</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Iceland</border>
			<border>Sweden</border>
			<border>Finland</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Sweden</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Norway</border>
			<border>Germany</border>
			<border>Finland</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>France</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Great Britain</border>
			<border>Spain</border>
			<border>Netherlands</border>
			<border>Italy</border>
			<border>Germany</border>
			<border>French West Africa</border>
			<border>Naval Superiority</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Spain</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Portugal</border>
			<border>Morocco</border>
			<border>France</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Portugal</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Spain</border>
			<border>Naval Superiority</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Germany</name>
		<borders>
			<border>France</border>
			<border>Netherlands</border>
			<border>Sweden</border>
			<border>Warsaw</border>
			<border>Austria-Hungary</border>
			<border>Vilno</border>
			<border>Naval Superiority</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Austria-Hungary</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Germany</border>
			<border>Warsaw</border>
			<border>Ukraine</border>
			<border>Balkans</border>
			<border>Italy</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Italy</name>
		<borders>
			<border>France</border>
			<border>Austria-Hungary</border>
			<border>Tripoli</border>			
			<border>Naval Superiority</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Netherlands</name>
		<borders>
			<border>France</border>
			<border>Germany</border>
			<border>Naval Superiority</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Balkans</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Austria-Hungary</border>
			<border>Ukraine</border>
			<border>Ottoman Empire</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	
	
	<territory>
		<name>Morocco</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Spain</border>
			<border>French West Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Liberia</name>
		<borders>
			<border>French West Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>French West Africa</name>
		<borders>
			<border>France</border>
			<border>Tripoli</border>
			<border>Morocco</border>
			<border>Liberia</border>
			<border>Nigeria</border>
			<border>Cameroon</border>
			<border>Congo</border>
			<border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
		</borders>		
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Tripoli</name>
		<borders>
			<border>French West Africa</border>
			<border>Italy</border>
			<border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Nigeria</name>
		<borders>
			<border>French West Africa</border>
			<border>Cameroon</border>
		</borders>	
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Egypt and Sudan</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Tripoli</border>
			<border>French West Africa</border>
			<border>Abyssinia</border>
			<border>Ottoman Empire</border>
			<border>Congo</border>
			<border>British East Africa</border>
		</borders>	
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	
	
	<territory>
		<name>Abyssinia</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
			<border>Somaliland</border>
			<border>British East Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Somaliland</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Abyssinia</border>
			<border>British East Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>British East Africa</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Abyssinia</border>
			<border>Somaliland</border>
			<border>Congo</border>
			<border>German East Africa</border>
			<border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>	
	
	<territory>
		<name>Cameroon</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Congo</border>
			<border>Nigeria</border>
			<border>French West Africa</border>
		</borders>		
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Congo</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Angola</border>
			<border>Cameroon</border>
			<border>French West Africa</border>
			<border>German East Africa</border>
			<border>Rhodesia</border>
			<border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
			<border>British East Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Angola</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Congo</border>
			<border>Rhodesia</border>
			<border>German South West Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>German South West Africa</name>
		<borders>
			<border>South Africa</border>
			<border>Rhodesia</border>
			<border>Angola</border>
		</borders>		
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>South Africa</name>
		<borders>
			<border>German South West Africa</border>
			<border>Rhodesia</border>
			<border>Portuguese East Africa</border>
		</borders>		
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Rhodesia</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Congo</border>
			<border>Angola</border>
			<border>German South West Africa</border>
			<border>South Africa</border>
			<border>Portuguese East Africa</border>
			<border>German East Africa</border>
		</borders>		
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Portuguese East Africa</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Madagascar</border>
			<border>Rhodesia</border>
			<border>South Africa</border>
			<border>German East Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Madagascar</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Portuguese East Africa</border>
			<border>German East Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>German East Africa</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Madagascar</border>
			<border>Congo</border>
			<border>Rhodesia</border>
			<border>Portuguese East Africa</border>
			<border>British East Africa</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	
	
	<territory>
		<name>Ottoman Empire</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Balkans</border>
			<border>Caucasus</border>
			<border>Persia</border>
			<border>Arabia</border>
			<border>Egypt and Sudan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Arabia</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Ottoman Empire</border>
			<border>Persia</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Persia</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Ottoman Empire</border>
			<border>Caucasus</border>
			<border>Arabia</border>
			<border>Turkestan</border>
			<border>Afghanistan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Afghanistan</name>
		<borders>
			<border>India</border>
			<border>Persia</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	
	
	<territory>
		<name>Finland</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Norway</border>
			<border>Sweden</border>
			<border>St. Petersburg</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>St. Petersburg</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Kazan</border>
			<border>Vilno</border>
			<border>Moscow</border>
			<border>Finland</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Warsaw</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Vilno</border>
			<border>Moscow</border>
			<border>Ukraine</border>
			<border>Germany</border>
			<border>Austria-Hungary</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Vilno</name>
		<borders>
			<border>St. Petersburg</border>
			<border>Warsaw</border>
			<border>Moscow</border>
			<border>Germany</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Ukraine</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Warsaw</border>
			<border>Moscow</border>	
			<border>Caucasus</border>
			<border>Austria-Hungary</border>
			<border>Balkans</border>			
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Moscow</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Vilno</border>
			<border>Ukraine</border>
			<border>Kazan</border>
			<border>St. Petersburg</border>
			<border>Warsaw</border>
			<border>Caucasus</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Kazan</name>
		<borders>
			<border>St. Petersburg</border>
			<border>Moscow</border>
			<border>Caucasus</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Caucasus</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Kazan</border>
			<border>Turkestan</border>
			<border>Moscow</border>
			<border>Omsk</border>
			<border>Ukraine</border>
			<border>Ottoman Empire</border>
			<border>Persia</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Turkestan</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Caucasus</border>
			<border>Sinkiang</border>
			<border>Omsk</border>
			<border>Persia</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Omsk</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Irkutsk</border>
			<border>Turkestan</border>
			<border>Caucasus</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Amur</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Karafuto</border>
			<border>Irkutsk</border>
			<border>Manchuria</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Irkutsk</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Omsk</border>
			<border>Amur</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	
	
	<territory>
		<name>Sinkiang</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Tibet</border>
			<border>Peking</border>
			<border>Mongolia</border>
			<border>Turkestan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Tibet</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Sinkiang</border>
			<border>Peking</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Mongolia</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Sinkiang</border>
			<border>Peking</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Peking</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Sinkiang</border>
			<border>Tibet</border>
			<border>Canton</border>
			<border>Shanghai</border>
			<border>Manchuria</border>
			<border>Mongolia</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Canton</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Peking</border>
			<border>Shanghai</border>
			<border>Indochina</border>
			<border>Burma</border>
			<border>Philippine Islands</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Shanghai</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Peking</border>
			<border>Canton</border>
			<border>Taiwan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Manchuria</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Amur</border>
			<border>Korea</border>
			<border>Peking</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>	


	<territory>
		<name>India</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Afghanistan</border>
			<border>Nepal</border>
			<border>Burma</border>
		</borders>
            <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Nepal</name>
		<borders>
			<border>India</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Burma</name>
		<borders>
			<border>India</border>
			<border>Siam</border>
			<border>Indochina</border>
			<border>Canton</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Siam</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Burma</border>
			<border>Indochina</border>
			<border>Sumatra</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Indochina</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Canton</border>
			<border>Burma</border>
			<border>Siam</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>	
	
	<territory>
		<name>Japan</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Karafuto</border>
			<border>Korea</border>
			<border>Taiwan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Karafuto</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Amur</border>
			<border>Japan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Korea</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Manchuria</border>
			<border>Japan</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Taiwan</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Japan</border>
			<border>Shanghai</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>


	<territory>
		<name>Philippine Islands</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Canton</border>
			<border>Borneo</border>
			<border>New Guinea</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Borneo</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Philippine Islands</border>
			<border>Sumatra</border>
			<border>Java</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Sumatra</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Borneo</border>
			<border>Siam</border>
			<border>Java</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Java</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Borneo</border>
			<border>Sumatra</border>
			<border>Australia</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>New Guinea</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Philippine Islands</border>
			<border>Australia</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>Australia</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Java</border>
			<border>New Guinea</border>
			<border>New Zealand</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>
	<territory>
		<name>New Zealand</name>
		<borders>
			<border>Australia</border>
		</borders>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	</territory>


	<territory>
		<name>Naval Superiority</name>
		<borders>
		</borders>
	    <bombardments>
		 <bombardment>Indochina</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Madagascar</bombardment>
         <bombardment>French West Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Rhodesia</bombardment>
         <bombardment>India</bombardment>
         <bombardment>South Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Egypt and Sudan</bombardment>
         <bombardment>British East Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Sumatra</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Java</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Nigeria</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Cameroon</bombardment>
         <bombardment>German South West Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>German East Africa</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Angola</bombardment>
         <bombardment>Portuguese East Africa</bombardment>
      </bombardments>
		      <coordinates>
			<smallx>557</smallx>
			<smally>368</smally>
			<largex>697</largex>
			<largey>455</largey>	
		</coordinates>
	   <neutral killer="yes">4</neutral>
	</territory>

</map>

[yeti_c]

And because some of you are weird and like this stuff, the XML checks out with the latest updates. If somebody wants to check to see that I the starting positions right, bless your heart.

What are your starting positions meant to do Oak?

You have 8? positions in there - this will essentially ensure an even distribution of them - note if you have players less than 8 - then the unassigned starting positions will be distributed randomly...

This works for me - if I understand what you're trying to do.

C.