Marriage Rights

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Napoleon Ier
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by Napoleon Ier »

FabledIntegral wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:"You DO have to prove 'fitness'"....

Bloody good thing too.

You however said in reply to my admission of being ignorant of any evidence either way, and I quote, that "you still persist in your claims without even bothering to verify them", clearly implying that the burden of evidence lies on me to prove someone is unfit, rather than the other way around.

No one has ever provided me with any (empirical) evidence about homosexual parenting, until Igowhatsit just now. Now, because I haven't addressed it within the 20 minutes since it was posted, doesn't in fact mean I'm "neatly ignoring it", but rather a) that I have actual things going on in my life that do demand more immediate attention, and b) that I'd like to devote a little more than cursive glance at what appears to be a fairly decent body of evidence before making a judgement. When the facts change, change my mind. You may well have assumed that like yourself when presented with a new perspective, I would revert by instinctive reaction toward my previously held conviction. However, I am a rationalist, not some kneejerk ideologue and sound-bite sensationalist. So before making rash assertions about my character or anything else, I suggest you consider the facts more carefully. That is after all, what is becoming of a "Scientist".
Your evidence sucks - that's just as much saying you have to prove that heterosexual couples are as fit for adoption. Or single mothers shouldn't be allowed to raise kids because it's not traditional either. You are highly mistaken when you say "they need to prove they are competent parents," etc. etc. because their sexual preference is irrelevant. How about a SINGLE gay woman raising a child that she adopted? Is that any different except for the fact there will only be one figurehead instead of two? How does sexual preference play into the equation whatsoever? I'm sure there are plenty of homosexuals that would make shitty parents, but there are probably a relatively equal proportion of heterosexuals to complement it.

Absolutely amazed that you think sexual preference can somehow screw up the way someone is raised.
Well, it's just a little principle of developmental psychology called "gender roles" really. Nothing too fucking serious...
Your evidence sucks - that's just as much saying you have to prove that heterosexual couples are as fit for adoption.
Well....yes, they do actually. You don't give a child to the first random heterosexual couple come, there's some procedure to adoption.
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Re: Marriage Rights

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Napoleon Ier wrote:
Well, it's just a little principle of developmental psychology called "gender roles" really. Nothing too fucking serious...
Correct, it isn't. The sexuality of the parents has no bearing on the sexuality of the children. Children of homosexuals are NO MORE likely to be homosexual than those of heterosexuals. The prime differance is that they are more likely to accept their sexuality, less likely to see it as an "issue".

Your information is seriously out of date. The days when parents were told that their sons became gay because their fathers did not spend enough time with them are gone.
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Re: Marriage Rights

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PLAYER57832 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:I think you'll not find a single position I hold to be ideologically inconsistent with the next.
True. They are all based on a very narrow view of the world.

Education is about expanding one's knowledge and views.
I assume you mean that education is changing your opinions like you change your shirt to suit the latest sensationalist soundbite you heard off some disreputable source?
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by StiffMittens »

Napoleon Ier wrote:Well, it's just a little principle of developmental psychology called "gender roles" really. Nothing too fucking serious...
This is from CliffNotes.com:
Gender roles

Gender roles are both cultural and personal. These roles determine how males and females think, speak, dress, and interact within the context of society. Learning plays a role in this process of shaping gender roles. These gender schemas are deeply embedded cognitive frameworks regarding what defines masculine and feminine. While various socializing agents—educators, peers, movies, television, music, books, and religion—teach and reinforce gender roles throughout a child's life span, parents probably exert the greatest influence, especially when their children are very young.

Developmentalists indicate that adults perceive and treat female and male infants differently. Parents probably do this in response to having been recipients of gender expectations as young children themselves. Traditionally, fathers teach boys how to fix and build things; mothers teach girls how to cook, sew, and keep house. Children then receive parental approval when they conform to gender expectations and adopt culturally accepted and conventional roles. All of these lessons are reinforced by additional socializing agents, such as the media. In other words, learning gender roles always occurs within a social context, with the values of the parents and society being passed along to the children of successive generations.
Who cares if society has to culturally adapt to a rise in the number of children who grow up understanding at a fundamental level that women don't always do the cooking and the laundry and that men don't always take out the trash and fix the toilet? Probably do us a world of good.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by mpjh »

Napoleon Ier wrote:I think you'll not find a single position I hold to be ideologically inconsistent with the next.
As Emerson said:
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by PLAYER57832 »

bbqpenguin wrote: ah, but the New Testament isn't innocent of silly things no one believes any more, either
for instance, Paul says in his first letter to the Corinthians, 14 (34) the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. (35)If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a women to speak in church."
These are often taken out of context. Paul was addressing a specific situation in a specific church. It is not correct for a marriage partner to publically question his/her spouse. In that day and age, men had the predominant public voice. In that culture for a woman to speak up under those circumstances in that manner was wrong because as was said, it would have shamed the husbad. BUT, you have to look at other passages. Are women to be dismissed? No. Husbands are to consider what their wives say. In fact, the other part of that passage says that if the husband cannot answer, then the husband should bring the question to public.

Similar is the reference to slaves. Christ did not tell slaves to just revolt and leave their masters, but was he actually endorsing slavery or was he saying that right now, the best thing for you is to stay with your master ..until things change AND, then turn and begin to get masters to first treat their slaves better and, eventually to free them.

In both cases our society has evolved to a differant point. The principals still apply, but the detailis shift.

It is also an exampe of something that is a guide, rather than a law.
but then again, I never really liked Paul anyway. regardless, there are several more instances like this where the literal interpretation simply doesn't cut it in the New Testament, though this sort of thing surely is more common in the Old
This is getting well off topic and further discussion really needs to be in another thread. I have addressed this before. Part of the answer is above, that you are to read what is said in whole and not just pick out phrases. I forget the exact passage, but this was one of the key admonishments of Christ to the Sadducees. He accused them of knowing the letter of the law, but not its heart.

The other answer is that sometimes there actually is more than one possibility allowed, depending upon the circumstances OR just that it is a detail that really does not matter.

Look at references to hair, for example. It says not that a woman who uncovers her hair is a harlot, but that if you live in an area where only harlots go uncovered, then you should go covered so you are not thought a harlot. Yet, many cite this to mean that women should go covered or be considered harlots in all societies. That is just wrong.
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Re: Marriage Rights

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StiffMittens wrote: Who cares if society has to culturally adapt to a rise in the number of children who grow up understanding at a fundamental level that women don't always do the cooking and the laundry and that men don't always take out the trash and fix the toilet? Probably do us a world of good.
The biggest problem with "gender roles" is not that women and men are exactly alike, it's that often, the "perceived" rules just don't make universal sense.

One time, I was in my yard, planting bulbs. A youngish man cme along trying to look sly and asked "ain't you got a man to do that for you?"

The guy was obviously an idiot, (for one thing I never new that planting flowers was a particularly male activity), but I decided to humor him and asked him "Why? Is there something wrong with my planting flowers?"

He snickered, "Well, it's kind of dirty ain't it?".

The perfect answer popped in my head .."not at all like cleaning toilets and dirty diapers, is it, now?"
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by Napoleon Ier »

...
PLAYER57832 wrote:
women and men are exactly alike
...

Where and to what level did you say you studied Science again? Wasn't exactly an MSc Oxon you ended up with, was it?
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by mpjh »

Gender roles?
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Napoleon Ier wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:I think you'll not find a single position I hold to be ideologically inconsistent with the next.
True. They are all based on a very narrow view of the world.

Education is about expanding one's knowledge and views.
I assume you mean that education is changing your opinions like you change your shirt to suit the latest sensationalist soundbite you heard off some disreputable source?

No, but it does often seem that this is how you operate, so I suppose you should be forgiven for thinking that's how others operate.


Here is the thing. You make it very, very obvious that you have never even investigated much of what you claim to be against. That is why you are so easily and roundly denounced.

And no, saying "nah, nah player, you must have done to the university of the XZY" or "you are obviously a communist" or any other names, off-target issues, etc. you wish to bring up are not real discourse.

I don't expect you to agree with everything I say by a long shot. BUT, I DO expect you to give what others say, including me, fair and due consideration, just as you wish from others. So far, you have not shown that capability. Sad, in someone as obviously intelligent as you.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by StiffMittens »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
StiffMittens wrote: Who cares if society has to culturally adapt to a rise in the number of children who grow up understanding at a fundamental level that women don't always do the cooking and the laundry and that men don't always take out the trash and fix the toilet? Probably do us a world of good.
The biggest problem with "gender roles" is not that women and men are exactly alike, it's that often, the "perceived" rules just don't make universal sense.

One time, I was in my yard, planting bulbs. A youngish man cme along trying to look sly and asked "ain't you got a man to do that for you?"

The guy was obviously an idiot, (for one thing I never new that planting flowers was a particularly male activity), but I decided to humor him and asked him "Why? Is there something wrong with my planting flowers?"

He snickered, "Well, it's kind of dirty ain't it?".

The perfect answer popped in my head .."not at all like cleaning toilets and dirty diapers, is it, now?"
:)
Well, I'm not sure that's the biggest problem with gender roles, but I do see that as a problem. I think the biggest problem with gender roles is the dogmatic nature they seem to have. I understand that dogma provides some benefit to whatever system or circumstances it emerges in, by providing some stability, but gender is an area where I do not see much of a need for rigidly defined social roles.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Napoleon Ier wrote:...

PLAYER57832 wrote: women and men are exactly alike
...

Where and to what level did you say you studied Science again? Wasn't exactly an MSc Oxon you ended up with, was it?
yes, interesting what you can come up with when you delete words.
Intentional misquoting is above even you. Here is what I really said.

PLAYER57832 wrote: The biggest problem with "gender roles" is not that women and men are exactly alike, it's that often, the "perceived" rules just don't make universal sense.
Now, if you have anything real to say, then say it. If all you want to do is insult me ... go for it, but know you are defeating any credibility you might have had.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by Napoleon Ier »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:I think you'll not find a single position I hold to be ideologically inconsistent with the next.
True. They are all based on a very narrow view of the world.

Education is about expanding one's knowledge and views.
I assume you mean that education is changing your opinions like you change your shirt to suit the latest sensationalist soundbite you heard off some disreputable source?

No, but it does often seem that this is how you operate, so I suppose you should be forgiven for thinking that's how others operate.
A minute ago I was ideologically consistent but narrow-minded, now I'm a flip-flopper with an open worldview? Make your bloody mind up.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by Napoleon Ier »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:...

PLAYER57832 wrote: women and men are exactly alike
...

Where and to what level did you say you studied Science again? Wasn't exactly an MSc Oxon you ended up with, was it?
yes, interesting what you can come up with when you delete words.
Intentional misquoting is above even you. Here is what I really said.

PLAYER57832 wrote: The biggest problem with "gender roles" is not that women and men are exactly alike, it's that often, the "perceived" rules just don't make universal sense.
Now, if you have anything real to say, then say it. If all you want to do is insult me ... go for it, but know you are defeating any credibility you might have had.
No, hang on. You just claimed that men and women are exactly alike, but that even this astounding new fact isn't the main flaw in gender roles. You claimed men and women were exactly alike. Clarify what exactly you meant if you misspoke, but otherwise, I have every right to question your scientific qualifications. All I have is in science are four GCSEs in Sciences/Maths, granted. But I can still tell you men and women are not exactly alike.
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Re: Marriage Rights

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lgoasklucyl wrote:Here's my question regarding the adoption debate, which leads into homosexuals being able to be the cornerstone of fully functioning multi-generational families:

Based on all the emperical evidence I supplied stating that homosexual couples make just as sufficient parents as heterosexual couples- why should homosexuality even be taken into consideration during the adoption process? ESPECIALLY with emperical evidence backing their competency, it just furthers the solid proof that it exists solely out of stereotyping/discrimination and for no other viable purpose. If there is no evidence proving they are not competent, what makes this any different than holding race, gender, or religious beliefs against someone during the adoption process? You're born with race and gender (for the most part), just as one is with a predisposition to be attracted to the same sex. Is it really fair to judge someone and remove this opportunity from their life AND the life of the child who may now sit in foster care/at a shelter for 17 years without parents solely based on the activities of two individuals in a bedroom?

You take adoption over abortion- support the obvious side that can lead to adoption being more viable.
Yeah.. I'm quoting myself because I still want an answer.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by StiffMittens »

Napoleon Ier wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote: The biggest problem with "gender roles" is not that women and men are exactly alike, it's that often, the "perceived" rules just don't make universal sense.
No, hang on. You just claimed that men and women are exactly alike, but that even this astounding new fact isn't the main flaw in gender roles. You claimed men and women were exactly alike. Clarify what exactly you meant if you misspoke, but otherwise, I have every right to question your scientific qualifications. All I have is in science are four GCSEs in Sciences/Maths, granted. But I can still tell you men and women are not exactly alike.
Did she make that claim? That's not how I interpreted it. I took it to be an extrapolation of my previous post. I assumed that she interpreted my view as: women and men are interchangeable in social roles. Which is not exactly my position, but close enough. I do think that women are generally better suited to certain roles, and men are generally better suited to others, mainly because of instincts that predate civilization by a longshot, but that is not to say that men and women cannot ever successfully assume each other's traditional social roles. But I don't think anyone was saying that men and women are indistinguishable from each other (particularly not physically).

Am I misunderstanding your post, Player?
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by StiffMittens »

lgoasklucyl wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:...why should homosexuality even be taken into consideration during the adoption process?
Yeah.. I'm quoting myself because I still want an answer.
If there is a good reason to consider sexual orientation during the adoption process, I am unaware of it.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by Napoleon Ier »

StiffMittens wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:...why should homosexuality even be taken into consideration during the adoption process?
Yeah.. I'm quoting myself because I still want an answer.
If there is a good reason to consider sexual orientation during the adoption process, I am unaware of it.
Would you consider a single person adopting acceptable?
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by Snorri1234 »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
bbqpenguin wrote: ah, but the New Testament isn't innocent of silly things no one believes any more, either
for instance, Paul says in his first letter to the Corinthians, 14 (34) the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. (35)If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a women to speak in church."
These are often taken out of context. Paul was addressing a specific situation in a specific church. It is not correct for a marriage partner to publically question his/her spouse. In that day and age, men had the predominant public voice. In that culture for a woman to speak up under those circumstances in that manner was wrong because as was said, it would have shamed the husbad. BUT, you have to look at other passages. Are women to be dismissed? No. Husbands are to consider what their wives say. In fact, the other part of that passage says that if the husband cannot answer, then the husband should bring the question to public.
It is not so much taken out of context as it is just a left-over thing from older times. People don't believe these things anymore because we have evolved as society.

I think that the gist of this is still viable, both spouses should talk about their decisions and thoughts and neither should ignore the other, but that the specific idea of women not being allowed to publicly speak up is outdated and just plain wrong.


I think this is why a literal reading of the bible is just so silly. The general ideas in it are far more agreeable for most people as they often make sense, but a number of specific rules and statements are just really ridiculous to both non-religious folk and the liberal religious folks.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by lgoasklucyl »

Napoleon Ier wrote:
StiffMittens wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:...why should homosexuality even be taken into consideration during the adoption process?
Yeah.. I'm quoting myself because I still want an answer.
If there is a good reason to consider sexual orientation during the adoption process, I am unaware of it.
Would you consider a single person adopting acceptable?
If the individual was declared competent by the review process, then yes. Living under a parent within a family (extended, not simply immediate family) would be infinitely beneficial to the child over no family. If the individual(s) is(are) qualified, there is no reason to not consider them. Why should a same-sex pair be two single people as opposed to a 'couple' if they are just as (if not more) competent?
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by Napoleon Ier »

lgoasklucyl wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:
StiffMittens wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:...why should homosexuality even be taken into consideration during the adoption process?
Yeah.. I'm quoting myself because I still want an answer.
If there is a good reason to consider sexual orientation during the adoption process, I am unaware of it.
Would you consider a single person adopting acceptable?
If the individual was declared competent by the review process, then yes. Living under a parent within a family (extended, not simply immediate family) would be infinitely beneficial to the child over no family. If the individual(s) is(are) qualified, there is no reason to not consider them. Why should a same-sex pair be two single people as opposed to a 'couple' if they are just as (if not more) competent?
Because at a theoretical level it seems to me apparent that gender role confusion can arise from such a situation. Think about it, who's going to be more capable of rearing a child: a father and a mother, or just one of the above? What is a better simulation of a natural and normal childhood environment: a mother and a father, or a father and an "uncle"? Certainly if you can find no one better, OK, it might be preferable to letting a child stay in an orphanage: but I have difficulty seeing that as preferable in anything but the most dire of circumstances.

Now, the supposed empirical evidence, I need to review. However, given the obvious theoretical contradictions, it seems a bit like someone claiming they've found empirical evidence confirming that say, you can't resolve a force into vectors.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Napoleon Ier wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:...

PLAYER57832 wrote: women and men are exactly alike
...

Where and to what level did you say you studied Science again? Wasn't exactly an MSc Oxon you ended up with, was it?
yes, interesting what you can come up with when you delete words.
Intentional misquoting is above even you. Here is what I really said.

PLAYER57832 wrote: The biggest problem with "gender roles" is not that women and men are exactly alike, it's that often, the "perceived" rules just don't make universal sense.
Now, if you have anything real to say, then say it. If all you want to do is insult me ... go for it, but know you are defeating any credibility you might have had.
No, hang on. You just claimed that men and women are exactly alike, .
Read it again, this time don't skip the commas.

I have added nothing. You took out some pretty significant words.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Snorri1234 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
bbqpenguin wrote: ah, but the New Testament isn't innocent of silly things no one believes any more, either
for instance, Paul says in his first letter to the Corinthians, 14 (34) the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. (35)If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a women to speak in church."
These are often taken out of context. Paul was addressing a specific situation in a specific church. It is not correct for a marriage partner to publically question his/her spouse. In that day and age, men had the predominant public voice. In that culture for a woman to speak up under those circumstances in that manner was wrong because as was said, it would have shamed the husbad. BUT, you have to look at other passages. Are women to be dismissed? No. Husbands are to consider what their wives say. In fact, the other part of that passage says that if the husband cannot answer, then the husband should bring the question to public.
It is not so much taken out of context as it is just a left-over thing from older times. People don't believe these things anymore because we have evolved as society.
It is a reference to conditions that have changed. That is why it needs to be taken in context.
I think that the gist of this is still viable, both spouses should talk about their decisions and thoughts and neither should ignore the other, but that the specific idea of women not being allowed to publicly speak up is outdated and just plain wrong.
Again, that was not really the point of the text, it was an example of how to implement a particular issue. .. namely a spouse who has a question, in that particular time and place.
I think this is why a literal reading of the bible is just so silly. The general ideas in it are far more agreeable for most people as they often make sense, but a number of specific rules and statements are just really ridiculous to both non-religious folk and the liberal religious folks.
I sort of agree. The phrase we use is "don't count the number of angels that can sit on a pin" ... after a famous, but most would say irrelevant Middle Ages debate.

The ultimate truths of Christ are those put forth in the sermon on the mount, the rest is basically to help us better understand and live by those truths, but it is the truths that are fundamental. I would argue, however that the rest of the text does do that if taken into context and read as it is intended and not just in bits and pieces as some are wont to do.
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by StiffMittens »

Napoleon Ier wrote:
StiffMittens wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:...why should homosexuality even be taken into consideration during the adoption process?
Yeah.. I'm quoting myself because I still want an answer.
If there is a good reason to consider sexual orientation during the adoption process, I am unaware of it.
Would you consider a single person adopting acceptable?
Yes, if they demonstrate the ability to provide for the child. Many people raise their own biological child on their own, and while this does present significant challenges for that single parent, there are plenty of examples walking around that show it can be done successfully. I'll concede that a single parent should probably be held to something of a higher standard when adopting since there are many worthy couples looking to adopt and two parents should theoretically provide more stability, but other than that, why not?
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Re: Marriage Rights

Post by StiffMittens »

Napoleon Ier wrote:Because at a theoretical level it seems to me apparent that gender role confusion can arise from such a situation. Think about it, who's going to be more capable of rearing a child: a father and a mother, or just one of the above? What is a better simulation of a natural and normal childhood environment: a mother and a father, or a father and an "uncle"? Certainly if you can find no one better, OK, it might be preferable to letting a child stay in an orphanage: but I have difficulty seeing that as preferable in anything but the most dire of circumstances.

Now, the supposed empirical evidence, I need to review. However, given the obvious theoretical contradictions, it seems a bit like someone claiming they've found empirical evidence confirming that say, you can't resolve a force into vectors.
Gender role confusion can arise in any family situation (and has been for millenia).

http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_deta ... ub_cat=269
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