American Revolution Americans Get Independence Again

[LSU Tiger Josh]

Ace is replacing dominatinonation. keep it up and you'll get your extension to four days

[gimpyThewonder]

GT is coming across as very 3rd party, and remembering civil war it was the natives that killed off A LOT of us. sure there were a few roles that could either be recruited or choose a side but they were largely inconsequenchal and gained neither side an advantage. i'm not feeling like taking that risk.

fos GT

hell let's move this thing along
vote GT

[Thezzaruz]

I agree with most comments about tonkaed, waay too protective of any 3:rd party to be believable as anything but 3:rd party himself.

Vote got tonkaed

[Minister Masket]

Them's fightin words.

Vote Tonka

[mr. incrediball]

I think Tonkaed may have a sneaky little game plan going there?

[got tonkaed]

At the very least i believe it rather possible that Thezzarus, Minister Masket, and or Gimpy are not Brits.

[/]

It is still a suspicious notion, I mean if this was a normal game, what you would be implying is "hey, lets stretch the game out by alternately killing mafia and town".
No matter the faction, it doesn't change that this is a war, no one will win by killing their own out of sympathy.
Vote got tonkaed
Also, animorph, why are you trying to trade roles with a dead role-blocker? That seems a bit suspicious...

[ace1217]

Gonna have to vote GT

[animorpherv1]

Well, even if he was, would he be a psychopath? I don't think so. He was just a traitor.

Think about it. Health care sucked, and there was possibly no mental facilities back then. What do you think?

there properly ain't but i don't find you a psychopath either.

which side would the psychopath turn too when cured

town. something else coming in a minute.

[animorpherv1]

Also, animorph, why are you trying to trade roles with a dead role-blocker? That seems a bit suspicious...

[got tonkaed]

I would agree with that assesment in a normal game. However given that the game is not set up as a normal game, it makes the rather commonplace town-mafia approach irrelevant. The arguments for playing the game as thus are as follows.

1) You make the night phases safer for more people. When a bandwagon appears it more or less outs affilations of the majority of people on it. A British player wouldnt bandwagon a known Brit in many of the locations nor would an American in a similar scenario. Since the biggest danger to an average individual is giving up their identity to a non-friendly shooter before friendly doctors/roleblockers can find them, it benefits everyone to mask who they are affilated to. I am not a third party player. I just find it much simpler to play the game in a way (where assuming i am not bandwagoned rashly) both shooters have a hard time deciding whether or not they should shoot me. I also feel in an effort to rush out votes people have made themselves very easy to be shot. You can decide whether or not that was my intent.

2) You dont allow either side to gain an advantage, which makes the game winnable for far more people. By day 3 or so you can start to have a pretty decent advantage in terms of power roles and individuals in a game like this. If a british power role was lynched (granted unlikely since im the farthest on the chopping block) they would be down 2. Lets assume for a moment ga7 was killed by a shooter of British or 3rd party affilation. Assuming that shooter doesnt shoot at an American, which would be more easy to do today than yesterday, you are looking at a potential advantage of 3-4 if a Brit or another shooter makes a mistake. Should the Brits be so unlucky to lose a power player there, they would be starting to lose some viability. It would give France, which seems to make a lot of sense as a side who can join one or the other in support all the reason to move to the Americans, which would make the game rather simple i would assume at that point. If you are British or not French it makes little sense vote non-American today.

3) You require blockers and investigators to take action against you. Should i survive the day, its fairly possible i am shot at. Its probably even more likely that i am tracked or investigated though. This allows any individuals who i would have prefered to go unwatched to remain so. By attracting attention in my relatively weak position, hopefully it allows more powerful players to avoid detection. If by any chance i am not lynched, id prefer not to be protected.

4) I hadnt even strongly considered taking this approach at the outset, but found it to be the way i was going to go when in explaining simple semantics of the game, rather rashly players started to vote for me. I dont personally see why anyone non-american would be on or remain on any wagon that is developing around me. On top of that i dont see why any American would be so willing to put their head on the chopping block when they were starting to carve out an advantage.

[/]

Even if it's not clear cut; town VS mafia, it still stands to reason that most decent players in any game will not deliberately work counter-actively against their own win condition, town doesn't want to kill town, cult doesn't want to kill cult members, etc.
If you are British, it definitely doesn't help you to win by killing fellow British when you begin to get an edge in the game, same for Americans.
So if you believe me to be against you simply because I am a certain faction, you are wrong, I just disagree with the notion that we should kill our own team-mates. (if applicable to our win condition.)

[got tonkaed]

Understandable, which is why i would expect the individuals who are of the same team to not vote for members of the group they share win conditions with. Of course this makes them the easiest of targets for the vigs, but its up to them to decide who is worth shooting.

However by keeping your vote on me, you do imply you are not on my side, and ive been fairly clear about the notion that i am not third party.

[derfderf34]

I would agree with that assesment in a normal game. However given that the game is not set up as a normal game, it makes the rather commonplace town-mafia approach irrelevant. The arguments for playing the game as thus are as follows.

1) You make the night phases safer for more people. When a bandwagon appears it more or less outs affilations of the majority of people on it. A British player wouldnt bandwagon a known Brit in many of the locations nor would an American in a similar scenario. Since the biggest danger to an average individual is giving up their identity to a non-friendly shooter before friendly doctors/roleblockers can find them, it benefits everyone to mask who they are affilated to. I am not a third party player. I just find it much simpler to play the game in a way (where assuming i am not bandwagoned rashly) both shooters have a hard time deciding whether or not they should shoot me. I also feel in an effort to rush out votes people have made themselves very easy to be shot. You can decide whether or not that was my intent.

2) You dont allow either side to gain an advantage, which makes the game winnable for far more people. By day 3 or so you can start to have a pretty decent advantage in terms of power roles and individuals in a game like this. If a british power role was lynched (granted unlikely since im the farthest on the chopping block) they would be down 2. Lets assume for a moment ga7 was killed by a shooter of British or 3rd party affilation. Assuming that shooter doesnt shoot at an American, which would be more easy to do today than yesterday, you are looking at a potential advantage of 3-4 if a Brit or another shooter makes a mistake. Should the Brits be so unlucky to lose a power player there, they would be starting to lose some viability. It would give France, which seems to make a lot of sense as a side who can join one or the other in support all the reason to move to the Americans, which would make the game rather simple i would assume at that point. If you are British or not French it makes little sense vote non-American today.

3) You require blockers and investigators to take action against you. Should i survive the day, its fairly possible i am shot at. Its probably even more likely that i am tracked or investigated though. This allows any individuals who i would have prefered to go unwatched to remain so. By attracting attention in my relatively weak position, hopefully it allows more powerful players to avoid detection. If by any chance i am not lynched, id prefer not to be protected.

4) I hadnt even strongly considered taking this approach at the outset, but found it to be the way i was going to go when in explaining simple semantics of the game, rather rashly players started to vote for me. I dont personally see why anyone non-american would be on or remain on any wagon that is developing around me. On top of that i dont see why any American would be so willing to put their head on the chopping block when they were starting to carve out an advantage.

1)you are already dead since it only takes 6 votes to kill
2)you dont want to make the game far more winnable for more people you want to have less people to have a cahnce of winning while keeping yourself in that select few

[derfderf34]

Understandable, which is why i would expect the individuals who are of the same team to not vote for members of the group they share win conditions with. Of course this makes them the easiest of targets for the vigs, but its up to them to decide who is worth shooting.

However by keeping your vote on me, you do imply you are not on my side, and ive been fairly clear about the notion that i am not third party.

if you weren't third party you would be voting off a member of your team every other turn
does that really seem like something that you would want to do?

[got tonkaed]

Understandable, which is why i would expect the individuals who are of the same team to not vote for members of the group they share win conditions with. Of course this makes them the easiest of targets for the vigs, but its up to them to decide who is worth shooting.

However by keeping your vote on me, you do imply you are not on my side, and ive been fairly clear about the notion that i am not third party.

if you weren't third party you would be voting off a member of your team every other turn
does that really seem like something that you would want to do?

this is an incorrect assumption. I have said the targets for a lynch each day should be the group who has more members. This doesnt mean by any stretch it would be successful (this day being a rather strong example, as we have gone after any one of the more confirmed American members, and you guys are at the moment seemingly taking a shot on me under the assumption i am 3rd party and not american). It also doesnt mean you go after the alternating group each day. It means you go after the group who has the power. If 5 americans somehow died tonight, i would advocate the lynching of brits, until the game was more balanced.

[kalishnikov]

You thought you could get rid of me like that?? Firm bitches
Vote Kalish Yoohoo
I need to catch back but it seems we're quite short on time. There seems to have been a fair amount of decent discussion though so I hope it'll keep going and we'll get a deadline extension =)

Bah,Vote: ga7 (OMGUS vote ).

I'm in the process of reading the thread having just received my role.

[william18]

1)you are already dead since it only takes 6 votes to kill

Really? I thought it took a majority. Read rule number 5.

[kalishnikov]

Hmmm, I had a big post typed out but I think unlike usual I'll keep my big mouth shut for a bit here and let things play out some more before I comment.

When is the deadline now? I see mention that it may be extended passed today.

[gimpyThewonder]

If 5 americans somehow died tonight, i would advocate the lynching of brits, until the game was more balanced.

GT how can you make statements like this and not have us believe you're 3rd party??? whatever side i might be on, american or brit, i wouldn't want the game balanced, i'd want to win. a balanced game ONLY makes sense if you are 3rd party and want to winnow away the main factions. sorry dude, my vote stands

[got tonkaed]

If 5 americans somehow died tonight, i would advocate the lynching of brits, until the game was more balanced.

GT how can you make statements like this and not have us believe you're 3rd party??? whatever side i might be on, american or brit, i wouldn't want the game balanced, i'd want to win. a balanced game ONLY makes sense if you are 3rd party and want to winnow away the main factions. sorry dude, my vote stands

well i figure the more that people are in the dark on affilations, the more pressure it puts the shooters under to not shoot, allowing for more information for better targets later. Personally im of the opinion that no clear faction games like these should develop slowly, until you reach a point where its rather clear about how to act. I dont believe the people who are voting me at the moment, unless they are directly showing an American affilation, have a great grasp on what they are doing.

[Thezzaruz]

Personally im of the opinion that no clear faction games like these should develop slowly, until you reach a point where its rather clear about how to act.

The only one that gains from a slow no action games are the smaller factions (both SKs, survivors, cult and scum) and I ain't none of that but you certainly seems to be. My vote stands too.

[got tonkaed]

and i personally would like all of those elements to be on the side im hoping they end up on, mine. Instead of being the ones to hunt down the suriviors, and in all likelyhood the french group will probably will have to decide whether or not to lend their support to the Americans or not.

Also i find the fact that you guys would assume i would basically jump up and down when i could play way more under the radar if i had an interesting third party role, a little bit silly.

[ga7]

Third parties hould not be eliminated so early, and if my understanding is correct, might cause a deadlock.

Yeah, let's protect the poor little SKs, so overpowered by the two large factions. In the Civil war game, a SK was on the last 4 alive for a reason. There's no way the game will have a deadlock if it's anything like the previous game, with battles, recruiters, etc. In fact, saying now that Americans have an advantage over the Brits is ridiculous because of it.

It sort of depends on how you go about winning the game. In theory each faction should be working to reduce the other, while figuring out how to incorporate or eliminate the third parties (depending on how they are sorted). The third party individuals should seek to keep both of the main factions continually declining in a balanced way when possible so that they stand the best chance of surviving until they have the oppertunity to influcnce the game. If i remember correctly the foreign third parties will have oppertunities to side with a group (which makes sense within the context of the game). Given that a power role brit died yesterday, the third party (or non-american role) today should probably seek to lynch an American, and reevaluate after the night.

MM is the clearest target in that regard.

derf im simply trying to clear up some of the confusion and point out what is likely going to be required to avoid letting either one of the parties get in control. If there was an American lynch today and death tonight, id advocate a british lynch the next day.

Thus was demonstrated GT IS Third party. Basic slip up there. You're exposing what third parties should do then expose yourself by the same course of action

At the very least i believe it rather possible that Thezzarus, Minister Masket, and or Gimpy are not Brits.

4) I hadnt even strongly considered taking this approach at the outset, but found it to be the way i was going to go when in explaining simple semantics of the game, rather rashly players started to vote for me. I dont personally see why anyone non-american would be on or remain on any wagon that is developing around me. On top of that i dont see why any American would be so willing to put their head on the chopping block when they were starting to carve out an advantage.

Trying to pass as a brit is not very believable at this point. With the bandwagon starting on you for obvious reasons, your way out would be of course to try to gain the sympathy of Brit players, even though admitedly you would want to vote them off too if they gain an (apparent) advantage, because you're third party. This is enough justification to not leave you alive IMO, as you will hurt both main factions.

i disagree with the notion that third party roles are necessarily unuseful and therefore should be eliminated. While not directly related to this game, I can say in both games i have modded and played that it is frequently the efforts of third party players that keep the game in balance. While it is certainly possible that third party shooters are out there, which could be a danger to the group, it is also possible that these roles will be useful in a day phase or two if either group starts to become more sucessful than the other. Especially given the way this game could easily be set up, i think there are at least a few small factions who could either avanlanche the game in one direction or keep a stronger side from wiping out the other.

Id still advocate that making sure the two main factions remain balanced is the best approach to keep the game competitive for the longest amount of days. Meaning that today should still be a target for an American lynch (by anyone who is british, 3rd party, or a sneaky american trying to pretend they are not)

After trying to pass as a Brit didn't work, your puppy-eyed "third parties are useful" way won't work either. There might be recruitable third parties, sure, but as long as they haven't been yet recruited it's in the main factions' best interest to get rid of them. First, there will definitely be SK ones, second the "useful" ones might switch to one side or the other without any control, making it dangerous for at least one. Might as well toss a coin.
I wonder why you would think that if you weren't part of one.

Also i find the fact that you guys would assume i would basically jump up and down when i could play way more under the radar if i had an interesting third party role, a little bit silly.

WIFOM. It doesn't matter if you have an interesting third party role or not, your behavior could be explained in several manners as trying to serve the interest of a third party faction as opposed to the main ones.

Unvote Vote GT

[got tonkaed]

Wifom or not, there would be no reason at all for anyone to jump out as a third party on day 2. Especially as the day was heading toward another no lynch, i was merely attempting to generate more discussion and point out (especially derf's) misconceptions about how the game might work. Id also cite that i think its the best strategy to keep both sides around the same size, but obviously its not the only one pursuable. At the very least i think its possible to say a fair number of individuals are outting themselves as either American or covering for themselves as third party.


That actually does not identify me as third party at all. Describing what the best actions of a group of people are, doesnt not mean that those actions identify me as best of all possible actions. Its sound for all non-american groups to not allow that group to gain control. Again optimal action changes as events change, so it is rather shortsigthed i believe to make such a sweeping statement when i was doing little more that stating the obvious.

Ive hinted at being british yes, but that doesnt mean i am a member of their faction. I dont think my affilation is clear enough for anyones vote to be honest, while you have individuals like minister masket, derf, and thezzarus who are more reasonable suggestable to be American, and would therefore make sense as a lynch.

I find it rather unlikely that the Americans would want to get rid of the French, especially if the game follows any historical thread whats so ever. Though admittedly its speculative, i would assume that if you were American, as long as you were beating up the British, you would leave it to your diplomat to continue to work over the French.