Is Jesus necessary?

[spaceghst44]

So... do you go to church although you don't believe in god?

No "assumptions" necessary. It's right here in this thread.

I am an agnostic, but I still go to church. I do not believe in the bible word for word, but I do believe in and enjoy the bibles moral teachings.

I already told you I am not religious nor do I believe in God.

Yup. I'm the ass.

You are the ass. The whole point of my argument is that you are an idiot for making fun of other people religions. You are a dick for that. Plain and simple. Feel free to change the subject or make fun of me, it just shows your level/lack of intelligence.

[Backglass]

The whole point of my argument is that you are an idiot for making fun of other people religions.

But you don't have a religion, or are you "Christian Agnostic"?

it just shows your level/lack of intelligence.

You mean like going to a church when you don't believe in any of the things they preach?

[spaceghst44]

You are the ass. The whole point of my argument is that you are an idiot for making fun of other people religions. You are a dick for that. Plain and simple. Feel free to change the subject or make fun of me, it just shows your level/lack of intelligence.

But you don't have a religion, or are you "Christian Agnostic"?

Once again your stupidity behooves you.

No comment on how you are a dick for making fun of others huh.

Good job internet tough guy.

[Backglass]

Once again your stupidity behooves you.

Someone get this boy a Dictionary! Stat!

No comment on how you are a dick for making fun of others huh.

What is hypocritical here is that every religion mocks every other religion. The Christians mock the Muslims, who mock the Jews, who mock the Christians...you see it every day in print, on TV and on this forum. I am an equal opportunity mocker...every culture has it's fairy tales.

So, since I answered YOUR question, why don't you answer mine. Do you bow your head and pray with the others even though you don't believe in their gods? Do you tell anyone your belief that the bible is false and gods don't exist? Or do you just "play along" and fake it on Sunday for the moral teachings?

[spaceghst44]

Once again your stupidity behooves you.

Someone get this boy a Dictionary! Stat!

No comment on how you are a dick for making fun of others huh.

What is hypocritical here is that every religion mocks every other religion. The Christians mock the Muslims, who mock the Jews, who mock the Christians...you see it every day in print, on TV and on this forum. I am an equal opportunity mocker...every culture has it's fairy tales.

So, since I answered YOUR question, why don't you answer mine. Do you bow your head and pray with the others even though you don't believe in their gods? Do you tell anyone your belief that the bible is false and gods don't exist? Or do you just "play along" and fake it on Sunday for the moral teachings?

Not every religion mocks every other religion; you are a sad person for thinking this. Most religions teach something called tolerance, which it seems you need. I don’t mock anyone’s religions. People can believe what they believe in. You need to do the same.

[mpjh]

I can almost understand you. It is sort of like a hedge fund.

[Backglass]

Not every religion mocks every other religion; you are a sad person for thinking this.

True...I have never seen the Buddhists mock anyone. As for the mainstream? Turn on the TV sometime. Religion is full of hatred for "the other team".

Most religions teach something called tolerance, which it seems you need.

Tolerance? Like jihads and crusades? Screaming at people outside abortion clinics and shooting at the doctors? Knocking on peoples doors and informing them they are sinners and going to hell? Thrusting religious dogma (intelligent design) down the throats of schoolchildren? Banning gay marriage? Forcing commandments to be posted in public courthouses paid for by the taxes of even those who don't believe in them? Or perhaps the tolerance of not letting muslim women swim, spoken of in a different thread? Yeah...LOTS of tolerance in religion.

Take #3 - So, since I answered YOUR question, why don't you answer mine. Do you bow your head and pray with the others even though you don't believe in their gods? Do you tell anyone your belief that the bible is false and gods don't exist? Or do you just "play along" and fake it on Sunday for the moral teachings?

[spaceghst44]

Not every religion mocks every other religion; you are a sad person for thinking this.

True...I have never seen the Buddhists mock anyone. As for the mainstream? Turn on the TV sometime. Religion is full of hatred for "the other team".

Most religions teach something called tolerance, which it seems you need.

Tolerance? Like jihads and crusades? Screaming at people outside abortion clinics and shooting at the doctors? Knocking on peoples doors and informing them they are sinners and going to hell? Thrusting religious dogma (intelligent design) down the throats of schoolchildren? Banning gay marriage? Forcing commandments to be posted in public courthouses paid for by the taxes of even those who don't believe in them? Or perhaps the tolerance of not letting muslim women swim, spoken of in a different thread? Yeah...LOTS of tolerance in religion.

Take #3 - So, since I answered YOUR question, why don't you answer mine. Do you bow your head and pray with the others even though you don't believe in their gods? Do you tell anyone your belief that the bible is false and gods don't exist? Or do you just "play along" and fake it on Sunday for the moral teachings?

You lump everyone into the same category hence you are still missing my point because you are one of those people.

[Minister Masket]

It depends on whether you believe Dante's "Circles of Hell" theory.
If memory serves, if you live as a good person, yet not not embrace Christ , you end up in Limbo. I can't remember if this is the 1st circle, or a seperate place from Hell..

Anyway, apparently, it's not too bad a place - almost like a "grey" area. Nothing good or bad happens there, just eternal boredom. You don't end up in Heaven, but you arn't eternally tortured either.

I can remember somewhere reading that some famous figures are here that lived before Christ... Plato perhaps?

[mpjh]

Yeah, I heard that some famous photographer went there and took pictures, but on the way back Phlegyas took the film back before the photographer could cross the River Styx.

[Backglass]

You lump everyone into the same category hence you are still missing my point because you are one of those people.

So now I am the "tolerant" religious nutjob doing those lovely things?

Take #4 - So, since I answered YOUR question, why don't you answer mine. Do you bow your head and pray with the others even though you don't believe in their gods? Do you tell anyone your belief that the bible is false and gods don't exist? Or do you just "play along" and fake it on Sunday for the moral teachings?

Why wont you answer the question?

"Good job internet tough guy." - spaceghst44

[mpjh]

Ok, you guys have gone around and around on this. Backglass, I understand you persistence in pointing out hypocrisy.

But think of this: Many atheist and agnostics go to church for reasons other than faith. For example the Universal Church of Christ has many, many social action programs that are not religious in focus, but designed to help people in the community, or oppose government action in a war. Also the Greek Orthodox Church often has a very active social program for people in the community with a common heritage, even putting on educational programs to educate people (often with excellent food). So I can see an atheist or agnostic attending church, and most of the members welcoming them despite that.

There are probably other reasons, like attending to keep an elder grandmother safe or attending to be with your girlfriend for some afternoon delight later. Anything is possible.

[Backglass]

Backglass, I understand you persistence in pointing out hypocrisy.

Just doin' my job Ma'am.

But think of this: Many atheist and agnostics go to church for reasons other than faith........like attending to keep an elder grandmother safe or attending to be with your girlfriend for some afternoon delight later.

Or the reason I suspect a great majority go to church: It is easier to go with the flow and "fit in" (even if you don't believe a word of it) than to take a stand and deal with the ridicule, scorn and excommunication from family, friends and neighbors.

Especially in small town USA.

[PLAYER57832]

Not every religion mocks every other religion; you are a sad person for thinking this.

True...I have never seen the Buddhists mock anyone. As for the mainstream? Turn on the TV sometime. Religion is full of hatred for "the other team".

Actually, yes ... but remember Eastern cultures are generally just more subtle. You are more likely to hear a Westerner say "you idiot!". You are more likely to find an Easterner simply quietly laughing or setting someone up to look ridiculous -- more subtle, but mockery.


BUT, the other issue is that right now, Christianity is the dominant perdium. That is, most people in the US say they "are Christian" and "believe/follow the Bible" (and I believe in Europe as well, though less overwhelmingly so). That means, unfortunately, that there are more outright idiots who happen to also be Christian in this country than folks of other persuasions.

I am fully a Christian and take great offense at much of what is put forward by the 700 club, etc. as "Christian". But, freedom of expression in a keystone of our secular laws... and for good reason. I do think the more moderate of us have perhaps been a bit too passive in confronting some of the more blatant issues (such as anti-semitism and Creationism), but here is the thing .. Christianity means people are forgiven, not perfect.

Most religions teach something called tolerance, which it seems you need.

Tolerance? Like jihads and crusades? Screaming at people outside abortion clinics and shooting at the doctors? Knocking on peoples doors and informing them they are sinners and going to hell? Thrusting religious dogma (intelligent design) down the throats of schoolchildren? Banning gay marriage? Forcing commandments to be posted in public courthouses paid for by the taxes of even those who don't believe in them? Or perhaps the tolerance of not letting muslim women swim, spoken of in a different thread? Yeah...LOTS of tolerance in religion.

In part, see above.

But you seem to want to condemn Christianity excessively. It is true that recent history has seen many atrocities commited by Christians (but also Nazis, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.). However, Christianity hardly has a "lock" on atrocities. Nor are the atrocities limited to those of religious belief. More accurate is to say that certain individuals seek power and will use whatever means, including religion, to attain it. Rarely are pure religious motivations really and truly behind the atrocities. Religion is USED as an excuse, and does draw the followers."peasants"/population, but is not the real reason.

[Backglass]

Actually, yes ... but remember Eastern cultures are generally just more subtle. You are more likely to hear a Westerner say "you idiot!". You are more likely to find an Easterner simply quietly laughing or setting someone up to look ridiculous -- more subtle, but mockery.

Thank You.

But you seem to want to condemn Christianity excessively.

It may seem that way, but oddly enough, the other religions do not feel the overwhelming need to continually thrust their beliefs in others faces. They keep to themselves, and that's fine with me. How many "Logical Proof for Mohamed!" threads or "Wiccan Freaks!" groups do we see here?

I do believe that all religions that rely on an invisible, supernatural being to be equally silly, however.

It is true that recent history has seen many atrocities commited by Christians (but also Nazis, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.). However, Christianity hardly has a "lock" on atrocities.

Agree 100%.

Nor are the atrocities limited to those of religious belief. More accurate is to say that certain individuals seek power and will use whatever means, including religion, to attain it. Rarely are pure religious motivations really and truly behind the atrocities. Religion is USED as an excuse, and does draw the followers."peasants"/population, but is not the real reason.

I see your point, but I do not agree with "rarely". The Iraq war is a perfect example. Even though it had nothing to do with 9/11, it was viewed as a crusade and religious war by a great many christians in the USA. How many times have we heard "Just nuke em' all and let GOD sort them out".

[PLAYER57832]

But you seem to want to condemn Christianity excessively.

It may seem that way, but oddly enough, the other religions do not feel the overwhelming need to continually thrust their beliefs in others faces. They keep to themselves, and that's fine with me. How many "Logical Proof for Mohamed!" threads or "Wiccan Freaks!" groups do we see here?

Here, specifically there are not many adherents to those beliefs (though you do see some Wiccan-type ideas expressed). Again, right now, Christianity IS pretty dominant. I am talking over time.

And, one reason Islam does not "feel the need" to proclaim itself is because where it IS dominant, other religions are often suppressed. I don't see a Christian version of Saudi Arabia or Iran right now. (in the past, yes ... Spain, etc absolutely, but not now).

Nor are the atrocities limited to those of religious belief. More accurate is to say that certain individuals seek power and will use whatever means, including religion, to attain it. Rarely are pure religious motivations really and truly behind the atrocities. Religion is USED as an excuse, and does draw the followers."peasants"/population, but is not the real reason.

I see your point, but I do not agree with "rarely". The Iraq war is a perfect example. Even though it had nothing to do with 9/11, it was viewed as a crusade and religious war by a great many christians in the USA. How many times have we heard "Just nuke em' all and let GOD sort them out".

[/quote]

Actually, you prove my point quite nicely. The Iraq war had NOTHING to do with religion. A few people want to put it in that light, because it makes it comfortable for them or because they find it a nice way to attract people to the cause. However, it in no way reflects the true teachings of Christ.

[Backglass]

[Actually, you prove my point quite nicely. The Iraq war had NOTHING to do with religion. A few people want to put it in that light, because it makes it comfortable for them or because they find it a nice way to attract people to the cause. However, it in no way reflects the true teachings of Christ.

Then we agree to disagree. I believe that the Iraq war had a great deal to do with religion. If Iraq had been a christian nation, I do not believe we would have invaded.

[HungrySomali]

Geez, is every post on the forums about some god these days?

I posted "I Dont Care". See ya in hell mf'ers.

[mpjh]

There is no hell.

[Backglass]

There is no hell.

QFT.

[FabledIntegral]

Actually, you prove my point quite nicely. The Iraq war had NOTHING to do with religion. A few people want to put it in that light, because it makes it comfortable for them or because they find it a nice way to attract people to the cause. However, it in no way reflects the true teachings of Christ.

Bush has been quoted directly saying "God told me to go to Iraq." So it boils down to whether or not you think he was lying; whether or not he was or wasn't, I bet a lot of his followers had true intentions believing it was true religious motives.

[mpjh]

Bush did say that, and he called it a "crusade." Seems like the oil men may have gone along for other reasons, but the president sure leaned heavy on religion for justification.

[PLAYER57832]

Actually, you prove my point quite nicely. The Iraq war had NOTHING to do with religion. A few people want to put it in that light, because it makes it comfortable for them or because they find it a nice way to attract people to the cause. However, it in no way reflects the true teachings of Christ.

Bush has been quoted directly saying "God told me to go to Iraq." So it boils down to whether or not you think he was lying; whether or not he was or wasn't, I bet a lot of his followers had true intentions believing it was true religious motives.

Which is right in line with what I said ... that leaders use religion. However, Bush's claiming that it is a "Christian" war does not mean it is one. For we Protestants, even if the Pope were to declare such, which he has most definitely NOT, would still not make it a legitimately Christian war.

As for Bush's "followers", Bush is a political leader, not a religious one ... even though he does sometimes cite God. Even many of those who agree with Bush consider such claims blasphemous.

[FabledIntegral]

Rarely are pure religious motivations really and truly behind the atrocities. Religion is USED as an excuse, and does draw the followers."peasants"/population, but is not the real reason.

Actually, you prove my point quite nicely. The Iraq war had NOTHING to do with religion. A few people want to put it in that light, because it makes it comfortable for them or because they find it a nice way to attract people to the cause. However, it in no way reflects the true teachings of Christ.

Bush has been quoted directly saying "God told me to go to Iraq." So it boils down to whether or not you think he was lying; whether or not he was or wasn't, I bet a lot of his followers had true intentions believing it was true religious motives.

Which is right in line with what I said ... that leaders use religion. However, Bush's claiming that it is a "Christian" war does not mean it is one. For we Protestants, even if the Pope were to declare such, which he has most definitely NOT, would still not make it a legitimately Christian war.

As for Bush's "followers", Bush is a political leader, not a religious one ... even though he does sometimes cite God. Even many of those who agree with Bush consider such claims blasphemous.

You said they aren't truly religious motives. What I am saying is that Bush quite possibly has truly religious motives, and those that follow him do.

[Backglass]

However, Bush's claiming that it is a "Christian" war does not mean it is one.

Kinda like his claiming of WMD's and the "axis of evil" being real?