Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

[Neoteny]

I'm going to have to agree with tonka on this one. While we spend our time debating the pros and cons of theism or atheism, we expect the "loyal opposition" to take some sort of responsibility in condemning the atrocities committed by the extremist pits of the systems. The Juche system, regardless of how debatable it might be, can be described as atheistic, and, as such, we, as atheists, are obliged to recognize and violently resist the worldview.

Well Neo, it does seem that the other atheists on the site seem to be more gung-ho to criticize Christian atrocities of 500 years ago than this one now. I admire your stance of leadership in this regard along with GT, hopefully they'll listen to you. It's the curse of reformers, that it's hard to get people to recognize your point early on. The Reformation was a tough process in the Christian churches, as well.

History shows that they probably won't. But at least we know that they love to debate semantics.

[CrazyAnglican]

Neo,

I am really starting be concerned by the people that I thought would come around and see this atrocity for what it is. Yes, I used the general term "atheists" to illustrate that most Christians would probably be more receptive if they were not all lumped together with whatever crime any other thread might be based upon, but come on people. This is real. This is happening right now, and you don't get on and say something about it?

This is a current atrocity that is hopefully (hopefully) the worst that is going on in the world at the moment. What can we do? Are we willing to let history say "Apathy was rampant and the self-absorbed West cared little for the sufferings of anyone in the East".

[2dimes]

I tried to start some discussion on this at work. I think part of the problem is this is so horrific it doesn't seem real. Being fortunate enough to live here in North America I don't think we can properly relate to this.

[luns101]

Don't confuse Communism with Athiesm

...despite their repeated claims that they are

[2dimes]

Don't confuse Communism with Athiesm

...despite their repeated claims that they are

This is like saying "Don't confuse diesel engines with internal combustion engines."

[CrazyAnglican]

I think that is a problem for most. The idea is that atheists are separate from any central doctrine, but several doctrines have atheism as a central part of their makeup. It begins to be hard to separate one from another if the only qualifying criteria is to not believe in a god or gods.

All atheists are not communists, but communists certainly advocate atheism and to an extent expect it from one another. So the two cannot be entirely separated.

I tried to start some discussion on this at work. I think part of the problem is this is so horrific it doesn't seem real. Being fortunate enough to live here in North America I don't think we can properly relate to this.

I'd suggest using some of the facts, but it might just come down to repetition (with cited facts):

A 75 year-old North Korean factory manager was shot by firing squad in October for failing to declare his family background, investing his own money in the factory, appointing his children as its managers and making international phone calls.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-upda ... y-20080415

Two North Korean soldiers have reportedly been sentenced to death for helping North Koreans to make unauthorised visits to China. Their execution could be carried out any time after 16 February.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ ... 01/2007/en

Reports from these bodies, from North Koreans who are now settled in many countries (including South Korea and Japan), human rights NGOs, and journalist contacts suggest a serious pattern of human rights violations, including executions, torture, detention of political prisoners and inhumane prison conditions.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset ... 006en.html

It seems that your co-workers may not be alone. I also ran across a refutation of the reports that people were being immolated by having molten iron poured on them on the grounds that it would be very hard to get the 2,000+ degrees needed to melt iron in a prison, and the admonition to not listen too closely to people who use faith as their facts. The person clearly did not read the whole article as it states that Camp 22 , where this crime has happened, has a working foundry as it's a labor camp.

[Backglass]

Don't confuse Communism with Athiesm

...despite their repeated claims that they are

This is like saying "Don't confuse diesel engines with internal combustion engines."

Or priests with child molesters.

[Martin Ronne]

Don't confuse Communism with Athiesm

...despite their repeated claims that they are

This is like saying "Don't confuse diesel engines with internal combustion engines."

Or priests with child molesters.

Or New Yorkers with people from New Jersey

[MeDeFe]

Don't confuse Communism with Athiesm

...despite their repeated claims that they are

This is like saying "Don't confuse diesel engines with internal combustion engines."

Or priests with child molesters.

Or New Yorkers with people from New Jersey

Or jerseys with jumpers.

[Napoleon Ier]

What's funny though, is this, when we ask people not to confuse Christianity with the KKK or whatever organization it may be an absurd comparison is being drawn to, we get told that we're typical intolerant people claiming we're "true" Christians and that that must be subjective... (theology couldn't possibly be an objective science, could it?), but they get to whinge about people not being "true" atheists whenever they like, despite the fact that the only prerequisite for that is non-belief in a deity. It's actually a kind of freudian mechanism... they're right, we're wrong, and the people committing atrocities are the "them", the right-wingers, the evangelicals, the Catholics... Stalin and Mao cannot possibly be evil people because they weren't aided by the US, and North Korea is actually a lovely jovely place that's being tarnished by propaganda, or otherwise, isn't in fact ruled by "true" atheists...

[mpjh]

Gosh, nappy, you are getting it. Study on.

[Juan_Bottom]

What's funny though, is this, when we ask people not to confuse Christianity with the KKK or whatever organization it may be an absurd comparison is being drawn to, we get told that we're typical intolerant people claiming we're "true" Christians and that that must be subjective... (theology couldn't possibly be an objective science, could it?), but they get to whinge about people not being "true" atheists whenever they like, despite the fact that the only prerequisite for that is non-belief in a deity. It's actually a kind of freudian mechanism... they're right, we're wrong, and the people committing atrocities are the "them", the right-wingers, the evangelicals, the Catholics...

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's applicable.
The fact that the members of the government may be Atheists, is not conditional of why they are carrying out their crimes. The fact that the crimes are being carried out in servitude of a national religious dogma disqualifies that, doesn't it? They've crossed the line into religion.

Look at it this way. Christians make up Christianity, but Atheists do not make up Atheistanity. We have no core system of beliefs. Just one disbelief.

[CrazyAnglican]

Again you seem to be confusing atheist with non-religious. That defense doesn't work here because the people who are carrying out these crimes are atheists. They are atheists with a doctrine that they follow. Whether or not you consider them crossing a line into a religion is irrelevant. They are still atheists and are still following a doctrine of atheism. It's certainly one that you would disagree with (in much the same way that I disagree with human sacrifice), but the very fact that being an atheist only means that you deny the existence of God / gods prevents you from excluding these guys. Don't get me wrong, I can see why you would want to dissociate yourself from them, but they meet the criteria for being an atheist every bit as much as you do.

Look at it this way. Christians make up Christianity, but Atheists do not make up Atheistanity. We have no core system of beliefs. Just one disbelief.

Their doctrine of Juche has the starting place of atheism in just the same way that secular humanism, or Marxism does. These are atheistic doctrines upon which people can base their actions, in much the same way that Roman-Catholicism is a doctrine that can serve as a basis for the actions of its adherents.

[Napoleon Ier]

What's funny though, is this, when we ask people not to confuse Christianity with the KKK or whatever organization it may be an absurd comparison is being drawn to, we get told that we're typical intolerant people claiming we're "true" Christians and that that must be subjective... (theology couldn't possibly be an objective science, could it?), but they get to whinge about people not being "true" atheists whenever they like, despite the fact that the only prerequisite for that is non-belief in a deity. It's actually a kind of freudian mechanism... they're right, we're wrong, and the people committing atrocities are the "them", the right-wingers, the evangelicals, the Catholics...

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's applicable.
The fact that the members of the government may be Atheists, is not conditional of why they are carrying out their crimes. The fact that the crimes are being carried out in servitude of a national religious dogma disqualifies that, doesn't it? They've crossed the line into religion.

Look at it this way. Christians make up Christianity, but Atheists do not make up Atheistanity. We have no core system of beliefs. Just one disbelief.

But I can define any ideology as a system of non-beliefs. That's a logically irrelevant distinction.

[CrazyAnglican]

I still think that Neo and GT have a really good point about this. When the chips are down, you are doing the exact same things that you accuse Christians of.

"Oh they're not really __________."

"You can't pin this on ____________ because its the actions of only a certain group of _________."

Doesn't it bug you just a little to realize that you're playing word games in an attempt to dissociate yourself with these thugs? The Christians largely recognize that the Crusades happened and accept some responsibility even though they happened hundreds of years before any living Christian was born. Yet you guys quibble about whether these guys are really atheists? They are certainly not secular humanists, but they certainly are atheists. There is no question here. The definition of an atheist is quite clear.

Shouldn't the only question be "how do we make our voices heard to speak out against this tragedy"?

[luns101]

Look at it this way. Christians make up Christianity, but Atheists do not make up Atheistanity. We have no core system of beliefs. Just one disbelief.

No, look at it this way: we have a non-belief that there isn't a God. We also have a lack of belief that the scriptures aren't true.

[Frigidus]

Look at it this way. Christians make up Christianity, but Atheists do not make up Atheistanity. We have no core system of beliefs. Just one disbelief.

No, look at it this way: we have a non-belief that there isn't a God. We also have a lack of belief that the scriptures aren't true.

I look at it like this. Some people like the New York Jets, some people like the Dallas Cowboys, and some people don't really watch football. That last group of people are distinctly different from people who actively undermine the NFL and try to stop everyone from watching/playing it.

[CrazyAnglican]

I look at it like this. Some people like the New York Jets, some people like the Dallas Cowboys, and some people don't really watch football. That last group of people are distinctly different from people who actively undermine the NFL and try to stop everyone from watching/playing it.

Again, it's a game of semantics. If the only criteria for joining the last group is to not be interested in football, then anyone who isn't interested in football is a member of that group. It doesn't matter what their behavior is like. They can take football fans out and shoot them, and most other members of the group would be horrified, but unable to say "Hey, they're not a member of this group" because they meet the only criteria for joining.


Let's recap though, This is really to raise awareness about the treatment of people in North Korea. I was shocked to find out the extent of the torture, and other human rights violations carried out there. If we are going to continue to hold today's Christian organizations accountable for centuries old crimes, then it only seems fair to speak out against the current atrocities carried out in the name of atheistic doctrines.


Among other things, the atrocities include:

• people being immolated by having molten iron poured over them for refusing to give up their religious views.
• People being executed for crimes as trivial as criticizing the government, investing their own money in companies, and making international phone calls.
• The government operating an extensive system of concentration camps in which as many as 20% of the prison population dies each year.
• working their prisoners nearly to death and then if they get too sick (to avoid culpability) releasing them often only a week or so before they die.

[luns101]

Yeah, the last I checked there weren't any anti-NFLians trying to sue to remove team jerseys from being displayed at the stadiums.

Frigidus, I do understand you're point of view. It would just be nice to hear more from the atheists who feel like you instead of dedicating their time to ridicule and accusation.

[Artimis]

I think we need to draw a distinction between religion on the one hand and cults on the other. I know we've had this discussion in another thread and some of you think I'm over simplifying religion as being a belief system with a divine supernatural entity as the focus of worship. But(and this is a big BUT), I find the word religion being applied to something that is clearly anything but a religion.

The fact that the crimes are being carried out in servitude of a national religious dogma disqualifies that, doesn't it? They've crossed the line into religion.

Look at it this way. Christians make up Christianity, but Atheists do not make up Atheistanity. We have no core system of beliefs. Just one disbelief.

I do not consider Juche to be a religion, as the OP has quoted from About.com that it's a state Ideology. A national ideology does not a religion make. I think cult is the most appropriate word here.

The North Korean government has an ideology known as Juche which at it's basis is atheistic (unless one wants to make the argument that Kim Jung Il is somehow a god).

"Juche," or self-reliance, the Government's state ideology, and the personality cult of "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-Il, have become a kind of civil religion used by the Government as a "spiritual" underpinning for its rule. Refusal on religious or other grounds to accept the leader as the supreme authority exemplifying the State and society's needs is regarded as opposition to the national interest.

I do not consider Communism to be a religion, in fact I think communists would be insulted by such a statement. It is an ideology on a superior system of government that has been implemented somewhat unsuccessfully in the 20th century. Whether or not Communism is a superior system of government is a topic for another thread, so don't derail this one telling me I'm wrong for whatever reason.


I most definitely do not consider Atheism a religion(for obvious reasons!) A disbelief in divine supernatural entities does not a religious doctrine make. Juche and Communism can have atheistic values but that does not make them Atheist. I could start several large arguments on how many different actual religions are basically the same religion because they share the same values. This would be oh so too easy to do and likely get this thread transported to Flame Wars. So will the religious amongst us please stop calling(or implying) Atheism a religion or a religious doctrine because there is disbelief and not belief at the core of the Atheist view of the world.


Again I reiterate the need for an adequate definition of what is and what isn't a religion, because the word religion is used far too freely in this thread and it's beginning to lose it's real meaning.

[Napoleon Ier]

But as we've pointed out on countless occasions, disbelief and belief are just two arbitrary categories you've set up which can be used as starting points for definition of whatever ideology you choose. I can define Christianity philosophically as a series of disbeliefs, just as easily as I can atheism as a series of beliefs.

In other words, your distinction is semantic, and of no real value to logical analysis.

[Backglass]

OK.

I am no longer an atheist, I simply have no religion and don't believe in gods. Is that better?

[Neoteny]

Yeah, the last I checked there weren't any anti-NFLians trying to sue to remove team jerseys from being displayed at the stadiums.

Frigidus, I do understand you're point of view. It would just be nice to hear more from the atheists who feel like you instead of dedicating their time to ridicule and accusation.

Just to be difficult...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/ ... 1662.shtml

[Neoteny]

This thread is suffering from a lack of agreed upon definitions. Where's a philosopher when you need one?

EDIT: Also, "agreed upon" or "agreed-upon?"

[MeDeFe]

This thread is suffering from a lack of agreed upon definitions. Where's a philosopher when you need one?

*raises hand*