The Pledge of Allegiance

[muy_thaiguy]

Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

Not only citizens - my kids have to say it, if they want schooling. I don't even get to vote.

Odd. The only time I can ever recall doing it, was in grade school. And that was a private Catholic elementary school too. We took moments of silence in junior high and high school, but never said the Pledge of Allegiance.

It's a public school thing.

My junior and senior high schools are public.

[InkL0sed]

Oh, I misread what you said, sorry.

[GabonX]

Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

Not only citizens - my kids have to say it, if they want schooling. I don't even get to vote.

If you live in America and your kids go to a public school they are not required to say it.

[PLAYER57832]

Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

Not only citizens - my kids have to say it, if they want schooling. I don't even get to vote.

If you live in America and your kids go to a public school they are not required to say it.

Not entirely true (see Jaun's post, for one).

However, here is the thing. When all is said and done, it is precisely BECAUSE of our constution, represented by our flag, that we are even allowed to have this discussion here.

Criticism of a government can be the highest form of patriotism. HOWEVER, blindly opposing it can truly be little more than treason. I, personally, am thankful for the legal boundaries we have in this country. They are not perfect, but they are reasonably acceptable, unlike many, many other places.

[luns101]

I can't recall a single time that I was in a class where we had to perform The Pledge, and this was back in the mid-80's in Indiana. When I was a student teacher though years later, I was surprised when a large number of students at the school where I was assigned protested that it wasn't mandatory and were able to convince the administration to be more diligent in allowing them to recite it on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

[MeDeFe]

Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

Not only citizens - my kids have to say it, if they want schooling. I don't even get to vote.

If you live in America and your kids go to a public school they are not required to say it.

Not entirely true (see Jaun's post, for one).

However, here is the thing. When all is said and done, it is precisely BECAUSE of our constution, represented by our flag, that we are even allowed to have this discussion here.

Criticism of a government can be the highest form of patriotism. HOWEVER, blindly opposing it can truly be little more than treason. I, personally, am thankful for the legal boundaries we have in this country. They are not perfect, but they are reasonably acceptable, unlike many, many other places.

Candian company and website.

[PLAYER57832]

Only a bad government has to force fake loyalty upon its citizens.

Not only citizens - my kids have to say it, if they want schooling. I don't even get to vote.

If you live in America and your kids go to a public school they are not required to say it.

Not entirely true (see Jaun's post, for one).

However, here is the thing. When all is said and done, it is precisely BECAUSE of our constution, represented by our flag, that we are even allowed to have this discussion here.

Criticism of a government can be the highest form of patriotism. HOWEVER, blindly opposing it can truly be little more than treason. I, personally, am thankful for the legal boundaries we have in this country. They are not perfect, but they are reasonably acceptable, unlike many, many other places.

Candian company and website.

True, CC is based in Canada, but I am viewing the internet from my home right here in the US.

Further, I have had and witnessed MANY discussions along a similar vein in person all over this country.

Some people have religious and other moral reason to object to saying the pledge, but then subsitutes are actually available.

Juan you obviously went to an abusive school. Still, I think saying the pledge is a good thing. Also, based on other things you have said, I believe a big part of the problem in your case was that your parents did not support your ideas and this happened before you were an adult. Children, including teenagers, simply do not have the full rights of adults. Nor can they. Were your parents to have stood up and said this is what we are teaching our son .. I believe you would have had a differant outcome.

[GabonX]

Juan you obviously went to an abusive school.

You're making a big assumption here. I didn't see that he stated he went to a public school. I hope you don't make these kinds of leaps and bounds when forming ideas about politics and current events.

Anyhow, as much as I hate I hate I hate them, the ACLU can and does take up this kind of issue all the time. You don't have to say the pledge in public schools and if you're told otherwise the person who told you this can be fought and won against.

[Neoteny]

You're making a big assumption here.

Almost as big of an assumption as the one that dictates we having discussed Juan's schooling in the past.

[PLAYER57832]

Juan you obviously went to an abusive school.

You're making a big assumption here. I didn't see that he stated he went to a public school. I hope you don't make these kinds of leaps and bounds when forming ideas about politics and current events.

He did not say so here. This has been discussed in several other threads.

Anyhow, as much as I hate I hate I hate them, the ACLU can and does take up this kind of issue all the time. You don't have to say the pledge in public schools and if you're told otherwise the person who told you this can be fought and won against.

Yes ... and no.

The courts have gone back and forth and all around on this issue. Also, these court cases all take time. In most cases, the child was long out of the system by the time it was resolved in court. At any rate, that right to sue is almost always up to the parent, not the child.

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan you obviously went to an abusive school. Still, I think saying the pledge is a good thing. Also, based on other things you have said, I believe a big part of the problem in your case was that your parents did not support your ideas and this happened before you were an adult. Children, including teenagers, simply do not have the full rights of adults. Nor can they. Were your parents to have stood up and said this is what we are teaching our son .. I believe you would have had a differant outcome.

True. I was an outspoken Athiest and my mother wanted a Christian. And my school was quite abusive and intrusive. Obviously not in a physicle way. Not saying anything more...

You're making a big assumption here. I didn't see that he stated he went to a public school. I hope you don't make these kinds of leaps and bounds when forming ideas about politics and current events.

Almost as big of an assumption as the one that dictates we having discussed Juan's schooling in the past.

I've talked about it a lot. I failed all of my high school sciences courses and nearly flunked out of high school rather than give in to my creationist science teacher. With tenure. He had lots of tenure.
I had a meeting with my teachers and mother way back in the day. I told her what my science teacher was doing, but she wouldn't take my side. She was hoping I would care more about my grades than my pride, and later he would help to convert me. There was this pretty Jehovah's Witness in my class, her parents simply took her out of the school. But honestly, would anyone here renounce their Christianity or anything? No one on this forum would.


The one thing that resonates with people are my science teacher's bonus questions. He would give a hand-written test with all of the required questions. Then he would have all these "bonus questions" on the back of the tests. For example "why is it unlikely that the 'Java Man' is a Homo Sapien's Ancestor?" Then you would have to answer "because his bones are too similer to an ape and they were found a mile a part in a riverbed. The man who found them just wanted money and claimed unrelated ape and human bones were part of the same creature."

Anyhow, as much as I hate I hate I hate them, the ACLU can and does take up this kind of issue all the time. You don't have to say the pledge in public schools and if you're told otherwise the person who told you this can be fought and won against.

What's wrong with the ACLU? They do the job no one wants. I think we need people like that.

[jonesthecurl]

Juan you obviously went to an abusive school.

You're making a big assumption here. I didn't see that he stated he went to a public school. I hope you don't make these kinds of leaps and bounds when forming ideas about politics and current events.

Anyhow, as much as I hate I hate I hate them, the ACLU can and does take up this kind of issue all the time. You don't have to say the pledge in public schools and if you're told otherwise the person who told you this can be fought and won against.

And then your child won't be at all unpopular at the school of course or in any way treated badly.

[JACKAZZTJM]

It's a relic of the Cold War. Hell, it's a relic of the Red Scare. To be honest I don't really buy into the "we're the best" mentality, and feel that "we're all right, but lacking in many ways" would be more accurate. In summary, nationalism makes me sad.

pathetic

[Juan_Bottom]

It's a relic of the Cold War. Hell, it's a relic of the Red Scare. To be honest I don't really buy into the "we're the best" mentality, and feel that "we're all right, but lacking in many ways" would be more accurate. In summary, nationalism makes me sad.

pathetic

For the most, I agree with Frigidus.

[Frigidus]

It's a relic of the Cold War. Hell, it's a relic of the Red Scare. To be honest I don't really buy into the "we're the best" mentality, and feel that "we're all right, but lacking in many ways" would be more accurate. In summary, nationalism makes me sad.

pathetic

I know, right? I mean, we're so afraid of our citizenry that we have to affirm our never-ending manlove for it every day? It's ridiculous.

[pimpdave]

I fully support reciting the Pledge everyday, since it gives kids the chance to come up with hilarious alterations to it.

Some of my best memories....

[PLAYER57832]

Juan you obviously went to an abusive school.

You're making a big assumption here. I didn't see that he stated he went to a public school. I hope you don't make these kinds of leaps and bounds when forming ideas about politics and current events.

Anyhow, as much as I hate I hate I hate them, the ACLU can and does take up this kind of issue all the time. You don't have to say the pledge in public schools and if you're told otherwise the person who told you this can be fought and won against.

And then your child won't be at all unpopular at the school of course or in any way treated badly.

The irony is that even if the pledge is not an issue, there are many, many ways in which kids can be stifled in schools.

My son was chastized in front of the whole class for wearing a T-shirt saying "I did not do my homeworkd because..." "the dog ate it" "aliens took it" "my sister ate it" ..etc. She did not call us, send a note or even issue a warning. She told him flat out that he was NOT to wear that shirt again ...and gave him a "point" reprimand on top of it. I will add that my son is a very intelligent ADHD child. His behavior is not perfect, but she has absolute no sense of proportion and is not even consistant. All she cared about, cares about is control. Meanwhile, my son hates almost everything to do with school and learning (thankfully, he is still interested in science).

I was particularly angry both because of HOW she dealt with it and because we are on a limited budget and that was one of the few NEW shirts he had. There was nothing in the school handbook even suggesting that the teacher could make such a demand. Listed were profanity and belly buttons, nothing about not wearing something a particular teacher thought rude. The principals response? He saw nothing wrong with it, but "Teachers have the right to decide in their class".

[GabonX]

The courts have gone back and forth and all around on this issue. Also, these court cases all take time. In most cases, the child was long out of the system by the time it was resolved in court. At any rate, that right to sue is almost always up to the parent, not the child.

That's true. Kids still have to listen to their parents.

What's wrong with the ACLU? They do the job no one wants. I think we need people like that.

There are good things about them and bad things about them but ultimately they are corrupt. They have a political agenda, which is inherently innapropriate for such an orginization, and they only support the rights that they deam are rights as opposed to what the constitution says.
http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/gen/359 ... 20304.html

[Snorri1234]

Silly americans.

[The1exile]

You guys should so find good ways to drop "that's what she said", "no homo" &c. into the pledge.

[GabonX]

I pledge allegiance to the flag..(THATS WHAT SHE SAID!)

[kentington]

or He said.

[pimpdave]

I led the pigeons to the flag of the United States of America
And to the Republican Richard Stans
One nation and a vegetable
With liberty and justice for all.

[pimpdave]

I pledge Aleisha to the slag
Of the United States of Bulgaria
And to the Republicans for Richard stands
One naked undergarment
Invisible man
With Liberace and puffed rice for all.

[herschal]

But there is no one forcing you to say the pledge. You don't have too.