Hand-Painted Maps

[theallnewbatman]

I've years of practice in creating very highly detailed hand-drawn fantasy maps (cities, regions, planets), colored with coloring pencils, watercolors, and ink. I'd like to talk about the possibility of my creating some maps like this for CC. *Please note, these are not of the Doodle Earth variety.* These maps can take up to a month or more to complete. I read in the forum that hand-drawn maps are not accepted, but... given the kind of quality that I am talking about, I thought to suggest taking hi-res photos, then if deemed necessary, using image enhancing software to touch it up. Is this an absolute no-go, or is there room for discussion if I provide samples of the artwork? Thanks in advance for responses and suggestions!

[the.killing.44]

You say that these take up to a month ... does that mean getting v6 out would take half a year with updates? Seems too hard ...

.44

[theallnewbatman]

does that mean getting v6 out would take half a year

A very practical question .44, and I'm happy to say that your concern here is not one to worry about.

What I meant to imply is that I (can) put that much time and effort into the final copy. From what I understand, a map takes roughly 6 mos. from conception to quenching for digitally created maps (and I don't mean the bs . What I'm thinking is, once the territory/country, border, bonus army, theme, and color scheme decisions have been made (and I'm assuming playtested at least some, if not online), and after the sketches (or mock-ups) have been approved, then, the actual drawing or painting can take me anywhere from three 12-16 hour days to a month to complete (which I'm happy to do! I enjoy it immensely!), depending on the season and the map (I have six-week winter and summer breaks, and am mad busy the rest of the year).

What I'd like to propose is, assuming that my sample art has been provisionally approved as an acceptable format for a map on CC, that the idea quality, playability, and originality of potential maps be the second deciding factor. At which time I can begin creating the proposed map(s) by hand, which can be touched up digitally if deemed necessary for the final product.

In my estimation, this whould take 0-12.5% longer than an all-digital project, depending on the scope of the art, which is to say, perhaps a week to a month added to the end of a run of the mill project, which, given the novelty and originality of a hand-drawn or hand-painted map, I'd like to propose, humbly, could be worth the relatively infinitessimal extra time it takes to produce a quality map by hand...

[Nzen]

I strongly suggest putting a link to your portfolio or a gallery. These are an empirical lot you speak to. The way to get a map out of ideas and into drafts is to put up an image. Describing your talent will not reassure them so much as your flickr account (or the equivalent).

I suspect some reasons that CAs disprefer hand-painted maps are objectivity and nimbleness. If both an artist and the critic have photoshop, the critic can suggest the helvetica font matches the theme better than Times New Roman. In the face of a painter's personal 'font,' the criticism fails because the artist may have already imitated Helvetica, but the scan or photo resolution makes them appear the same. Further, changing the fonts with a program is faster than repainting each territory's name. The best way to diffuse the criticism involves showing both versions. Unless the artist makes copies, this may involve painting, then repainting the piece. I use fonts as a place holder for the many aspects of a given map: borders, barriers, background, [the army circle], and so on. Given these difficulties, frustration on both sides is the likely outcome.

Frankly, despite the above argument, if you can produce the changes in a reasonable time and quality, no one should be the wiser.

[maasman]

sounds like a very good idea if your painting is as good as you say it is

[theallnewbatman]

"Given these difficulties, frustration 'on both sides is the likely outcome.
Frankly, despite the above argument, if you can produce the changes in a reasonable time and quality, no one should be the wiser."

If this is indeed the case, I'd be more than happy to provide sample artwork. Frustration in mutlilateral projects has never discouraged me yet... This is indeed the basis of quality teamwork... Quality changes in a reasonable timeframe and with more than reasonable quality is precisely what I am offering. I am only looking for confirmation that I will not be wasting my time, in that my ideas and artwork will be (again, provided that my samples are approved by the admin), minimally, considered, rather than exlcuded simply on the basis of their mode/method/medium of composition.

[RjBeals]

Sure you can provide hand drawn maps, as long as they pass the community peers. The problem is, what if you spent a month creating a map, and you've got it almost finished, then somebody visits your thread, and rips your map apart.. In this forum, you need to either provide a good reason to why you don't make changes... or make the changes. It might be very frustrating, and just difficult to make some changes to a hand drawn map.

I guess you could just do the map skeleton, and then work on graphics once gameplay is agreed upon. But I still think it would be tough.

[wcaclimbing]

Sure you can provide hand drawn maps, as long as they pass the community peers. The problem is, what if you spent a month creating a map, and you've got it almost finished, then somebody visits your thread, and rips your map apart.. In this forum, you need to either provide a good reason to why you don't make changes... or make the changes. It might be very frustrating, and just difficult to make some changes to a hand drawn map.

I agree with that.

The problem with mapmaking is that even if the mapmaker thinks the image looks perfect, there will still be people coming in and suggesting changes. Most of the suggested changes are easily done with Photoshop because of the use of layers and all the tools available. To make a similar change with regular pencil/paint, that would take tons of work, because you would have to completely redraw the area you are changing.

For example, lets say you complete your one month of mapmaking and you have the image finished.
The territory borders, names, and details are all finished.
Now you post your image and people in the forum agree that continent X should be a different color. In Photoshop, you simply have to change the color, which could be done in 30 seconds.
Changing the color with paint would involve pretty much re-doing that entire section of the map and a good hour or two to make sure it looks ok after you've changed the color.

I mean, if you are up for that challenge, then go for it. It just sounds like it would be way too difficult to make the necessary changes without creating the map with Photoshop.

[captainwalrus]

Despite the obvious problems which this proposes in terms of practicality and how a map like this would progress through the forum I think it is a great Idea (assuming you are as good as you say and are up for the huge challange). Hand drawn maps would have a lot of character which you can't get from photoshop. It would be esspecialy good for historical maps. I would love to see some of your work!

[theallnewbatman]

I am really HAPPY to have had positive feedback AND constructive criticism from the CC community. MY THANKS to everyone who has viewed or commented on this thread!!

Your ideas of having to change a country's color et cetera after the fact has made me much wiser about the cartographical process in the digital era--my personal honest thanks again. It may be (at times,very) difficult to alter ye olde methodes, but, if it's possible via admin, I'm game!

I will try to alter my normal working pattern to fit one that can be as alterable as possible--e.g., if CC would like a country's borders altered, I will make the map so that I can just (really) cut the one country out of the map and repaint it. I am busily at work and will post new cartography soon! (sucks I don't have all the map art I've done since 15 years ago on flickr, but it's instead in a box in storage just outside of New Orleans for the moment...) Please consider looking forward to a cool series hand-painted maps of dreamed continents from me in the not too distant future

The more criticism, the earlier on, the better . . . PLEASE tell me *every little thing* you can think of about my idea that might be an eventual problem or an aggravation as per final forge cartography.

[RjBeals]

Wow - cool that you're still willing to move forward. I would suggest up front not focusing on grarphics at all. Post some borders and bonus regions, so we can comment on gameplay. Once you get that down, then start your painting details. Do you have anything that you could scan & post so we can see a sample of your work?

[pikkio]

interesting idea.
but i think there is a big problem.. before a map is quenched, a lot of discussions and changes are about the graphic. many people suggest and critic to have a good looking map. in the map that i'm making, i think that 80% of all the critics/suggestion are about the looking of the map. so, how can you explain this map to the comunity if you draw it only when quenched? certainly you can make an example in digital art, but it will never be the same.. so, it's possible to quench a map without a real graphic discussion (we can say that the green of a territory it's ok, but in hand drawn that green is certainly too different..)? if the admin say that it's possible, i'm curious to see what you can do! ^_^

[theallnewbatman]

thanks for this last. i think much of the color problems would be solved in advance by posting color samples. plus, most of any maps i'll do would probably be natural colors, with the territory and country borders being thin and thick black, as opposed to any purple or blue terrain colors. (am in the middle of a two-week long internship so art samples are on the way soon.) thanks again for the interest in the project