BBC: Why Britain needs more guns

[bedub1]

Are you aware the "wild wild west" was actually quite calm and polite? cause everybody had a gun hanging on the hip and you don't pick a fight and win by being a jackass, you end up dead. So instead you are polite and don't try to piss people off.

Criminals don't obey the law, so when they outlaw guns from a certain area (schools, parks, shopping malls) only the "law abiding" citizens refrain from carrying a gun. The criminals now know the area is undefended and walk right in killing everybody in their path. A single armed law-abiding student with the same goal as the police officers, to protect his fellow citizens, classmates, friends, could have stopped half the attacks in recent years the middle instead of letting them continue on. A single law-abiding person hoping to gain citizenship to America could have stopped the most recent travesty by simply shooting the guy with the gun before he killed all those people. If all the law-abiding citizens that were killed had been carrying a gun, they wouldn't all be dead. The problem isn't law abiding respectable citizens possessing guns....the problem is criminals and crazy people.

Keep in mind, guns are just a tool. Whether it's a gun, a knife, a shank, the springs from your mattress, criminals will find a way to kill each other and other citizens. Did you know there are murders in jail/prison? You don't think they have guns in there do you? It's not GUNS that are the problem, it's PEOPLE. And personally, I'd prefer if more of those criminals/people were killed and more law-abiding honest citizens remained alive.

[captain.crazy]

Are you aware the "wild wild west" was actually quite calm and polite? cause everybody had a gun hanging on the hip and you don't pick a fight and win by being a jackass, you end up dead. So instead you are polite and don't try to piss people off.

Criminals don't obey the law, so when they outlaw guns from a certain area (schools, parks, shopping malls) only the "law abiding" citizens refrain from carrying a gun. The criminals now know the area is undefended and walk right in killing everybody in their path. A single armed law-abiding student with the same goal as the police officers, to protect his fellow citizens, classmates, friends, could have stopped half the attacks in recent years the middle instead of letting them continue on. A single law-abiding person hoping to gain citizenship to America could have stopped the most recent travesty by simply shooting the guy with the gun before he killed all those people. If all the law-abiding citizens that were killed had been carrying a gun, they wouldn't all be dead. The problem isn't law abiding respectable citizens possessing guns....the problem is criminals and crazy people.

Keep in mind, guns are just a tool. Whether it's a gun, a knife, a shank, the springs from your mattress, criminals will find a way to kill each other and other citizens. Did you know there are murders in jail/prison? You don't think they have guns in there do you? It's not GUNS that are the problem, it's PEOPLE. And personally, I'd prefer if more of those criminals/people were killed and more law-abiding honest citizens remained alive.

I totally agree with you on all points.

But we have to remember that our society has actually changed quite a bit. It is a vicious cycle of entitlement, degeneration of the self, eroding responsibility and back to entitlement.
- People have become entitled to everything that they want.
- They are no longer aware of self integrity, therefore, justify their actions to get what it is that they want.
- As such, their plainly incapable of displaying any kind of appreciation for what it is that they want, because we live in such a disposable society (in other words, that which I want now will be obsolete in a few months, so why should I work for it.)
- If people can't see value enough in something that they are not willing to work for it, they are not going to be responsible for it.
- But, they still want it.

To cope with this problem, our pharma companies have devised lots of medications to sedate people into a comfortable state and our government has set it up so that we can pretty much get what ever it is that we want... a house, a car, lots of credit cards... So long as you make the minimum payment, everything is fine.

As for the folks of the wild west, those were good times. I especially liked the fact that if you had a dispute with someone, you could call them out into the street, and if they were man enough, you could have a duel.

[jonesthecurl]

I wouldn't let the captain have a gun. I wouldn't let him have a phone or a key to the door of his padded cell...

[captain.crazy]

I wouldn't let the captain have a gun. I wouldn't let him have a phone or a key to the door of his padded cell...

I have many guns. They are for the war that is coming...

[b.k. barunt]

I only have one gun right now. If i need more in the war that's coming, i'll take them off of the people i kill. Easier that way.


Honibaz

[captain.crazy]

I only have one gun right now. If i need more in the war that's coming, i'll take them off of the people i kill. Easier that way.


Honibaz

I have extra guns to hand out to my friends. When they come, we can ambush them and take their weapons. I want night vision glasses though... I better get some of those soon.

[jonesthecurl]

I wouldn't let the captain have a gun. I wouldn't let him have a phone or a key to the door of his padded cell...

I have many guns. They are for the war that is coming...

OK I was on the fence about gun control despite being a Brit. Until now.

[captain.crazy]

I wouldn't let the captain have a gun. I wouldn't let him have a phone or a key to the door of his padded cell...

I have many guns. They are for the war that is coming...

OK I was on the fence about gun control despite being a Brit. Until now.

It doesn't much matter if you are on the fence or not. I would rather die fighting than live as a slave. Maybe it will work out for me!

[TheProwler]

New York City is extremely safe.

At least Manhattan...I've heard Brooklyn can be a little dangerous....and the other boroughs too...but I don't live there, so I am just repeating what I heard.

But I did vacation in NYC last summer and I felt very safe in Manhattan...even in the middle of the night. What an awesome city!! And contrary to the stereotype, I found New Yorkers to be generally quite friendly...maybe not real outgoing (they avoided eye contact a lot), but anytime I approached anyone with a "dumb fuckin' tourist" question, I was treated very well.

[TheProwler]

I only have one gun right now. If i need more in the war that's coming, i'll take them off of the people i kill. Easier that way.


Honibaz

I have extra guns to hand out to my friends. When they come, we can ambush them and take their weapons. I want night vision glasses though... I better get some of those soon.

Definitely. Guerrilla warfare is the way to go and night vision will certainly give you an advantage over ill-equipped enemies.

I don't know what is going to happen, but if the shit hits the fan, I'm probably heading into the woods for a period to see how things develop. I don't want to be the one to start the fighting. But if I hear shooting, the safety comes off and I plan to see them before they see me. I just bought a new compound bow yesterday too. No muzzle flash and quieter for stealth night attacks.

[comic boy]

I'm actually very critical of what I read and I make it a point to read as many sources as possible and then form my own opinion. Quite often I find that people don't really scrutinize the data in their own sources, a perfect example of this being in the New York Massacre thread.

I think you'll find that you are "right" in that thread is because nobody wants to argue it anymore. Also because you ignore posts.

If you make a point avoiding The Sun, MSNBC, Fox News, a given poster on a forum, or any other source, than you are willingly increasing your own ignorance. Even if you disagree with what these things say, even if everything they say is false, they provide a window into another way of thinking.

Sure, but the problem is that they frequently just make up shit.

Nobody wants to argue with me because I read the statistics from the anti gun website which actually prove my point!

It's very low class. Somebody claimed that I "ran away" because somebody proved I was wrong by posting a couple links, and when I pull information from the links that they post which actually prove what I've been saying there isn't a peep.

Fox News and The Sun don't make really make things up. People make the claim all the time but rarely do they try to demonstrate it.

You have proved nothing except you are willing to spend a great deal of time trying to put the best spin on certain statistics, any that are not malable you ignore,any posts that are awkward you ignore,common sense you also ignore.Not only are you a hypocrite but you are a proven liar and in debating terms a coward, perhaps thats why your views are not considered terribly important

[Royal Panda]

One question: how many mass school shootings have there been in England and Wales in the last few years?

[GabonX]

I only have one gun right now. If i need more in the war that's coming, i'll take them off of the people i kill. Easier that way.


Honibaz

Like Doom!

You have proved nothing except you are willing to spend a great deal of time trying to put the best spin on certain statistics, any that are not malable you ignore,any posts that are awkward you ignore,common sense you also ignore.Not only are you a hypocrite but you are a proven liar and in debating terms a coward, perhaps thats why your views are not considered terribly important

No, I took the time to look at the numbers. It's very simple, I added the number of gun related killings which occurred every year in the 90's and then divided by the number of years. Then I took the number of gun related killings which occurred every year since 2000 and divided by the number of years.

For the record, this is how you go about finding the average of a given set of things.

1990-1999
60,55,56,74,66,70,49,59,54,49,62
Average homocides commited per year: 59.45

2000-2008
73,97,81,68,78,50,59,53
Average homocide per year: 69.88
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF05.htm
http://www.gun-control-network.org/A018.htm
Feel free to go to the site and see for yourself.

I took the time to verify a well known trend for myself. The trend is that violent crime has been increasing accross the board in the UK since the 97 handgun ban went into affect. I also have a thread up which features an article by the BBC that reaffirms these facts.

It didn't take a lot of time to do and if you think I'm a liar go to the website and see for yourself. I think you may be coward for refusing to take the time to actually process the information and due to your irrational fear of guns
Regardless your insults are petty and groundless.

[GabonX]

One question: how many mass school shootings have there been in England and Wales in the last few years?

I think the last one was in 96.

How much has the crime rate risen since the 97 gun ban went into affect.

Hint, I've answered this one already

Anyways, I'm pretty sure kids have these in the UK...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yFUtJhUb7Q

[Snorri1234]

One question: how many mass school shootings have there been in England and Wales in the last few years?

I think the last one was in 96.

How much has the crime rate risen since the 97 gun ban went into affect.

So you argue that kids getting shot at quite a regular basis is an acceptable sacrifice for having a slightly lower crime rate (and merely a crime-rate without murder, and only comparing London to NYC)?

[bedub1]

One question: how many mass school shootings have there been in England and Wales in the last few years?

didn't some dude over there just shoot a soccer player in the head cause he was about to score a goal? whens the last time there was a massive riot here over a silly sports game....

[GabonX]

One question: how many mass school shootings have there been in England and Wales in the last few years?

I think the last one was in 96.

How much has the crime rate risen since the 97 gun ban went into affect.

So you argue that kids getting shot at quite a regular basis is an acceptable sacrifice for having a slightly lower crime rate (and merely a crime-rate without murder, and only comparing London to NYC)?

More lives are saved than lost, that's my position.

If a kid really wants to go on a rampage he can put together something just as lethal with things a child can buy at Walmart, maybe Woolworths over there.

[jonesthecurl]

Woolworths just went bust. irrelevant I know.

[Snorri1234]

More lives are saved than lost, that's my position.

Wow.....really? So despite that even NYC still has a higher murder-rate than London you insist on claiming that more lives are saved than lost?

[GabonX]

More lives are saved than lost, that's my position.

Wow.....really? So despite that even NYC still has a higher murder-rate than London you insist on claiming that more lives are saved than lost?

NYC has gang wars and gun control, a dangerous mix. Only the criminals have guns on them, so actually this exemplifies my point.

NY is one of a handful of states which DOES NOT recognize the right to carry. It is a shall issue state, or in other words a, "you have to know someone" state.

[Royal Panda]

One question: how many mass school shootings have there been in England and Wales in the last few years?

didn't some dude over there just shoot a soccer player in the head cause he was about to score a goal? whens the last time there was a massive riot here over a silly sports game....

I think you'll find that was in Iraq - similar countries I know, easy to confuse them.

And to OP, the 96 shooting was in Scotland, and there has been none in the UK since to my knowledge. On the contrary, since 1996, USA has had 34.

34 to 1 - pretty impressive statistics there... and 8 in 2008 alone! Well, I guess that CAN'T be down to having a gun ban can it?

[TheProwler]

I don't think people are understanding that there is a different culture in USA.

In England, if a guys screams "I'll kill you!!", it means he'll get 5 of his buddies together and get in a circle and put the boots to you.

In USA, if a guys screams "I'll kill you!!", it means your heart is going to stop beating. Whether it is with a gun or a knife or a bowling pin.

The good thing, in much of America, is that you have the right to bear arms and defend yourself properly.

In England, you take your beating, then come onto Conquer Club with a bruised head and a chip on your shoulder.

Also, yeah, too bad about those schoolyard massacres. But a lot of the people in America being killed (okay, "murdered") had to coming to them.

[Snorri1234]

More lives are saved than lost, that's my position.

Wow.....really? So despite that even NYC still has a higher murder-rate than London you insist on claiming that more lives are saved than lost?

NYC has gang wars and gun control, a dangerous mix. Only the criminals have guns on them, so actually this exemplifies my point.

London also has gang wars and gun control.


But f*ck that. This does not exemplify your point. You posted a link to a story which directly compared NYC and London so you either admit that the story is bullshit and you don't agree with it, or you are just trying to bullshit yourself out of the argument.

The murder-rate in the US is overall higher than England and Europe and most other countries, the crime-rate is still higher despite it dropping over the years and you still have innocents being shot all the time.

[Snorri1234]

I don't think people are understanding that there is a different culture in USA.

Oh I perfectly understand, but what does it matter? Who cares that Americans are appereantly a bunch of murderous bastards who love shooting and killing eachother?

Also, yeah, too bad about those schoolyard massacres. But a lot of the people in America being killed (okay, "murdered") had to coming to them.

In England basically everyone who is murdered had it coming to them if you mean "got into a dangerous situation like organized crime". There are very few people who get shot for no reason at all.

[GabonX]

Snorri, gang warfare in Europe is nowhere near the intensity of gang warfare in the United States. We have a bunch of pissed off black kids who think that the government discriminates against them. We have white supremacy groups, we have organized crime families from virtually every European nation and we have hard ass motorcycle gangs.

We also have a bunch of ex South American revolutionary soldiers who discovered they could make millions of dollars transporting drugs to the United States who adopted their military style tactics and executions to the drug trade. This upped the anti and all of the gangs are more violent as a result.

There is no comparison between the criminal threats that the United States faces and the problems any nation in Europe faces, particularly an island nation like the UK. This is in fact the primary reason that the murder rate is higher here, not the availability of fire arms to law abiding citizens. Fire arms are in fact the solution to these problems.

What link are you talking about? I honestly don't remember.