Inappropriate Avatar (Swastika)

[ericisshort]

[stinkycheese]

I think it all boils down to what the law says.
In Italy, Nazism and Facism is outlawed.
Showing Nazism symbols is against the law in most (all ?) western europe countries too.
Comunism symbols are not, in the other hand ?

Why ?
Reading geegel's words, and considering them true (one could always doubt, you know), one would ask himself the same question.
I guess the answer can be found in history, and the definition of History.

a) In history, first of all, it was Stalin who got himself such tyrannic blood-thursty image. However, the communism is not Stalin. While Stalin was surely one leader who lived a long time in a period where communism showed its true power (in terms of global world power), communism was born before, and... never ended (it was the URSS that ended).
A very different situation than Hitler with Nazism. Nazism was born from Hitler, one of the most charismatic leaders of his time, and died with him.

b) on the same line, while I'm far from communism, i urge you, geegel, to read Marx's book about the communism. I didn't myself, but I have friends (who are not communists) who did. And they all concur: there's nothing morally or idealistically wrong in their ideology, far from it.
Most agree that in a perfect world, it would be a good politic (but humanity is far from perfect: it's human, and the world, even less).
Communism isn't promoting genocide, racism, or "race superiority". Nazism did.
Your analysis, then, geegel, has in this way some glarring errors.
If every genocide (or attempt at) ended in a "let's ban all the leader's political faction symbols", we would have no symbols left nowadays.

c) remember also that communism is not a tyranny. Staline made it so.
In this area, he was identical as Hitler, and thus, I can think, identical in its approach towards the world (and genocides).
still, there was no ideology behind Stalin's motives. Only personal beliefs and gains. In this, Nazism is way worse.

d) In the end, History, the definition.
History is made by the winners, not the losers.
In the light of it, it's logical that Stalin, his actions, and by consequence the communism, ended up "clean" for a long while, while Nazism was buried.
Not for that long, however... due to the cold war.
If it hadn't been for the Cold War, and for the history we've been fed up by our "western" politic, we would maybe have milder opinions of the communism.
Maybe we would know about the bad things of Staline, but not better than the "colaboration" of France with Nazism during the WWII occupation, or than the Church's (Vatican) one during the same period.


All in all, i don't know if in USA Nazism and its symbols are forbidden. If they are, maybe that should be the way to go here. Because, yes, children can be influenced by them (but not only because of it).
Communism symbols ? The same. Check your laws, then decide.

I personnally do not mind one way or the other.
Any person displaying such a symbol (Nazism), is imho a moron or someone with very few brain cells, but I couldn't care less.
The excuse of "wow, they were very organized, great military, and so on" doesn't hold water. Better than putting an "Empire" symbol (Star Wars symbol) and be done with it.

Thank You. I hate people who associate Communism with Stalin...fucking retards.

[hulmey]

Communisum is death and suppression against the will of the people.....How may people have china killed in the name of communisum, oh and russia, oh the list goes on and on.

It starts out as a good idea as intended by marx but it gets lost along the way with a few million people here and there.

And as for guiscard so what the BNP beat up a few people!!!!!!!

Why is the BNP now getting stronger and stronger in the UK...Coz we in the UK are under attack from extremists and terroists....

They come to our country and dont respect the way we live!!!!!!!

[AAFitz]

The US does not prohibit the use of many symbols....its a basic premise

Freedom of speech includes speech that many would consider reprehensible, but by allowing it, we ourselves do not become reprehensible

The Nazis burned books and cracked down on such things...we do not have to

I forget everyone does not have the same background

in the cheating and abuse forums i have noticed that many europeans ask why people get offended why people get mad if they are wrongly accused

its because we are brought up in a system where you are innocent until proven guilty...

far more guilty people get out of prison sentences than innocent people get convicted, but thats the way it should be

this is all based on ideals of course...the real world is far more complex...but thats why we in the US dont care if we see a swatsticka..we consider it far more of a crime to not let someone speak their mind

[Genghis Khant]

Communisum is death and suppression against the will of the people.....How may people have china killed in the name of communisum, oh and russia, oh the list goes on and on.

It starts out as a good idea as intended by marx but it gets lost along the way with a few million people here and there.

And as for guiscard so what the BNP beat up a few people!!!!!!!

Why is the BNP now getting stronger and stronger in the UK...Coz we in the UK are under attack from extremists and terroists....

They come to our country and dont respect the way we live!!!!!!!

[reverend_kyle]

i only read the first page of this, but i figured id voice my own opinion. lol. ur probably thinking i am in favor of the nazi party, but i am not. i chose the name Hit.ler, simply because it is a renound name and is associated with power. now about the swastika. There is nothing wrong with that. It only means something bad if u take it that way. The swastika had nothing to do with Hitler's mass murders in WWII. The German army was a great one, and one of the strongest on the planet, and Hitler was a very smart man, however in the end he went too far. sorry, that was a lot of random talking and i apologize, but i do not see why there is any reason he should have to chang ehis picture.

BEST MONKEY EVER!

[cheguevarra]

Communisum is death and suppression against the will of the people.....How may people have china killed in the name of communisum, oh and russia, oh the list goes on and on.

How many people have the United States killed in the name of spreading democracy?

Capitalist democracies wage more wars than the countries you have mentioned in an effort to spread their ideology, open up new McDonald's, and hand over publicly owned oil reserves, and farm lands to private industries.

"Capitalism does not exist to serve the people, it exists to serve itself." -- Chomsky

[Vader_09]

just drop it already, omg, its just a sign that doesnt mean anything nowadays. it did in WWII and a lil while after but come on, grow up.

[s.xkitten]

swastika originally symbolized peace, and unity...

[P Gizzle]

tell that to a jew

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Communisum is death and suppression against the will of the people.....How may people have china killed in the name of communisum, oh and russia, oh the list goes on and on.

How many people have the United States killed in the name of spreading democracy?

Capitalist democracies wage more wars than the countries you have mentioned in an effort to spread their ideology, open up new McDonald's, and hand over publicly owned oil reserves, and farm lands to private industries.

"Capitalism does not exist to serve the people, it exists to serve itself." -- Chomsky

Capitalism is inherently opposed to war, but nice strawman. It's the Corporatism and Mercantilist (now called Protectionist) interests that put nations at war over business means.

"A witty saying proves nothing" -- Voltaire

[geegel]

First of all I want to apologize to cdman, this debate has stopped having anything with your avatar, please don't take it personally.

Now to answer:

I think it all boils down to what the law says.
In Italy, Nazism and Facism is outlawed.
Showing Nazism symbols is against the law in most (all ?) western europe countries too.
Comunism symbols are not, in the other hand ?

Why ?

Because none of the Western countries has ever been under a communist regime, in my country Romania, communism has been condemned and proclaimed a murderous ideology.

Reading geegel's words, and considering them true (one could always doubt, you know), one would ask himself the same question.
I guess the answer can be found in history, and the definition of History.

Assuming you trust Wikipedia, here are some resources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

a) In history, first of all, it was Stalin who got himself such tyrannic blood-thursty image. However, the communism is not Stalin. While Stalin was surely one leader who lived a long time in a period where communism showed its true power (in terms of global world power), communism was born before, and... never ended (it was the URSS that ended).
A very different situation than Hitler with Nazism. Nazism was born from Hitler, one of the most charismatic leaders of his time, and died with him.

This doesn't make communism less murderous. In every instance of communist rule, the political change was always violent, followed by a great repression, exerted either by the secret police and army. There is always an oppression of the dissidents and the intellectuals, based on their political beliefs. Please do show me a single communist regime that didn't follow these "rules".

b) on the same line, while I'm far from communism, i urge you, geegel, to read Marx's book about the communism. I didn't myself, but I have friends (who are not communists) who did. And they all concur: there's nothing morally or idealistically wrong in their ideology, far from it.
Most agree that in a perfect world, it would be a good politic (but humanity is far from perfect: it's human, and the world, even less).
Communism isn't promoting genocide, racism, or "race superiority". Nazism did.

I appreciate your advice, but if you are referring to "Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei", or the Communist Manifesto as it is more widely known, I have already read it, together with some others authors, which in humbleness I also recommend to you: George Orwell, Slavenska Drakulic, Nicolae Steinhardt or Dumitru Bacu.

Communism is not promoting indeed racism, but it is promoting murder and repression.

Your analysis, then, geegel, has in this way some glarring errors.
If every genocide (or attempt at) ended in a "let's ban all the leader's political faction symbols", we would have no symbols left nowadays.

c) remember also that communism is not a tyranny. Staline made it so.
In this area, he was identical as Hitler, and thus, I can think, identical in its approach towards the world (and genocides).
still, there was no ideology behind Stalin's motives. Only personal beliefs and gains. In this, Nazism is way worse.

Wrong again. Communism does equal tyranny. The collectivization process can't be achieved otherwise. All the communist regimes that employed this policy were tyrannical.

As for the reasons which accounted for the death of so many people. I find them somewhat irrelevant. Your conclusion that Nazis are worse would be like saying that the Nazis committed crimes against humanity, while communists committed crimes for the benefit of humanity.

d) In the end, History, the definition.
History is made by the winners, not the losers.
In the light of it, it's logical that Stalin, his actions, and by consequence the communism, ended up "clean" for a long while, while Nazism was buried.
Not for that long, however... due to the cold war.
If it hadn't been for the Cold War, and for the history we've been fed up by our "western" politic, we would maybe have milder opinions of the communism.

I slightly disagree here. I don't consider myself to be fed up by "western" politics. The fact that most people here disagree with me is I think a proof. The wide ignorance on the subject of communism seen here is I think a direct consequence of the lack of information found in the Western world on this subject.

Maybe we would know about the bad things of Staline, but not better than the "colaboration" of France with Nazism during the WWII occupation, or than the Church's (Vatican) one during the same period.

The politics of war at least have a justification. The Vichy government as well as the Vatican collaborated with the Nazis for their own survival. After the war was over, they headed back towards normality.

How many people have the United States killed in the name of spreading democracy?

Capitalist democracies wage more wars than the countries you have mentioned in an effort to spread their ideology, open up new McDonald's, and hand over publicly owned oil reserves, and farm lands to private industries.

"Capitalism does not exist to serve the people, it exists to serve itself." -- Chomsky

Before engaging in further debate I urge you to read the works of Ernesto Che Guevara, the man who you so boldly represent. You might be in for a shock.

[Guiscard]

Communisum is death and suppression against the will of the people.....How may people have china killed in the name of communisum, oh and russia, oh the list goes on and on.

It starts out as a good idea as intended by marx but it gets lost along the way with a few million people here and there.

And as for guiscard so what the BNP beat up a few people!!!!!!!

Why is the BNP now getting stronger and stronger in the UK...Coz we in the UK are under attack from extremists and terroists....

They come to our country and dont respect the way we live!!!!!!!

There is no justification for extreme right wing pieces of shit like the BNP. f*ck you you daily mail-reading facist piece of shit. I've had good friends beaten to within an inch of their lives by those thugs just for being black. Its people like you who don't respect the way we live - peacefully and compassionately with respect for others.

...and I'd promised myself I'd stay out of this thread...

[foolish_yeti]

Capitalism is inherently opposed to war, but nice strawman. It's the Corporatism and Mercantilist (now called Protectionist) interests that put nations at war over business means.

Could you elaborate? Also what would you consider the states to be?

It seems to me that the high-tech and weapons industries love war...just certain kinds of war. Take Iraq for example- you only go to war against insanely weak countries. Also since capitalism depends on perpetual growth, eventually things have to come to war...

Communisum is death and suppression against the will of the people.....How may people have china killed in the name of communisum, oh and russia, oh the list goes on and on.

I wouldn't call China or Russia communist... as for it being the death and suppression of the will of the people....well in theory it's exactly the opposite- hence why what people usually associate with communism is not communism.

[Lone.prophet]

Capatalism destroys the planet because nothing is enough

[reverend_kyle]

tell that to a jew

what about my people.

[DDM]

Because none of the Western countries has ever been under a communist regime, in my country Romania, communism has been condemned and proclaimed a murderous ideology.

Your case was a particular one. You had Ceaucescu, IIRC.
Quite a lot of pain and hardship there.

Assuming you trust Wikipedia, here are some resources.

Reread my words, and don't take everything as I write as an attack towards you. It wasn't.
I never said you were making things up.

This doesn't make communism less murderous. In every instance of communist rule, the political change was always violent, followed by a great repression, exerted either by the secret police and army. There is always an oppression of the dissidents and the intellectuals, based on their political beliefs. Please do show me a single communist regime that didn't follow these "rules".

Uhh.. well, the number of comunist regims are few in the world, and those who exist are usually (but China) ruled by a "leader" (you can call that a tyrant if you wish).
While I agree with the general facts, and also about the fact that a comunism regim would be inclined to "control" its intelligentia and press (thus, preventing democracy), i still make a huge difference between nazism and comunism.
Comunism might oppress or try to control the people ("for the better good", communists will say), genocide (or racial superiority, ect) is not in their goals.
You can make all the similarities you want, but it stays true. And that's a BIG difference (and not the only one).

also, if communism would get a good hold in Italy, or France, for example, I highly doubt that the same things that happened to Romania and with Stalin would happen again.
Communism now is looked upon with mistrust (he, one would wonder why), and in a full democracy, with an history of democracy, I doubt that some mischief could be done (not without an open revolution, anyway).
I'm not fearing communism getting the majority of votes in my country. I would if it were Nazism.

And about the repression of people / intelligentia, etc...
Take Italy. Or other "democracies" (check the list from Medecins Sans Frontières). Freedom of press can be very low also in democracies.
We had a good example in Italy while Berlusconi was on power (and I work for him, so I know).
A real power nowadays is about control of information. In the past, it was for indoctrination.
Nowadays, it is different, yet similar... more subtle, in a way.

Wrong again. Communism does equal tyranny. The collectivization process can't be achieved otherwise. All the communist regimes that employed this policy were tyrannical.

Ah, well, collectivization is a hot subject.
Indeed it is about taking away and "redistribution" (without the concept of property, however).
However, that's not the definition of tyranny. Tyranny implies a "feeling of oppression", which can be found in communism, but also can be absent.
People might be happy with it, you know.

Like I've said, I don't like communism, but I had the luck not to live (like you did in Romania) its horrors.
I have a russian wife (she doesn't particularly like communism either, but she doesn't hate it either) too, who lived there.
Like I said, there's an abyss between Nazism and Communism.
Also, I think that Communism knows its limits.
Alike some people vote for BPN or other extreme-right-wing parties without really being racists, i'm quite sure the same exist for communism.
I don't think that communism nowadays can afford the luxury to think it can "collectivise" everything again: it was proven with URSS that it didn't work.
New communism might be different, and maybe is, from country to country.
More mild, I guess. Else they wouldn't be "at the government" of some countries (in Italy they are, even if they don't get more than 5-10%): no one would accept them (like no one usually accepts racists in the government).

As for the reasons which accounted for the death of so many people. I find them somewhat irrelevant. Your conclusion that Nazis are worse would be like saying that the Nazis committed crimes against humanity, while communists committed crimes for the benefit of humanity.

It's not because most/all communist regims are with tyrants that all communist regims commited genocide.
So I can condemn Stalin for his genocide acts, but as of now, I've never found Castro, or other leaders, doing the same.
You still continue on saying "communism = genocide", and so give me that sentence "for the benefit of". (which i never said)
Nazis are worse, for sure. Not seeing the obvious differences is being blind to the obvious.
You still don't believe it ?
I'll take the harsh way then: let's say that tomorrow the Neo Nazi parti wins elections in Austria, and starts its ideology again. Do you think the other countries would say "oh well, who cares, let's still do trade with Austria ???"
(eh, maybe some will, I get no illusions )
I don't think so. At all. Austria wouldn't get very far.
It's like Hamas having power in Palestine (but still, Hamas is still less worse than Nazism).

I slightly disagree here. I don't consider myself to be fed up by "western" politics. The fact that most people here disagree with me is I think a proof. The wide ignorance on the subject of communism seen here is I think a direct consequence of the lack of information found in the Western world on this subject.

Well, you can't say the Western World hasn't been fed during these past 60 years about "boooh, fear the red guy".
So maybe not all information was fed, but all the worst, yes, I can be sure of.
Now there is some distension, the cold war is over, but history still exists.

The politics of war at least have a justification. The Vichy government as well as the Vatican collaborated with the Nazis for their own survival. After the war was over, they headed back towards normality.

Survival of what ?
I don't think, at all, that the Vatican needed to fear anything from the Nazis.
Vichy is a little bit different, but i don't see why other countries didn't come to pacts and France did (and i'm french, btw). huge shame.
(i know it seems a lot, but yes, i'm french, living in italy, and married to a russian woman ).

Before engaging in further debate I urge you to read the works of Ernesto Che Guevara, the man who you so boldly represent. You might be in for a shock.

Usually people answer other people's points.
Ignoring them with another rebuttal is not considered, in my book, smart talking. No offense intended, really, but if we all did like this, there would be no discussion.
This is the usual behavior of people who have something to defend (so they accuse, instead of explaining).
I don't, so I'm not prone to it.

[Dariune]

Guys im Jewish. A lot of my ansestors were killed by men wearing that symbol.
However someone displaying the Swastika on CC really really doesnt bother me and i fail to see why it would cause offense.
I am also english and i know as well as any that the English flag or those who wielded them killed just as many as the Nazi's, infact more. No one would raise a brow if that flag were on an avatar.

[jennisary]

my friend here Cdman has a great respect for the Natzi armi and not for it's reputation i personaly suported communism only the army and NOT the leader Stalin becausi'm a turk my mentor is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

[jennisary]

have't you all got respect for any greate comanders!

[P Gizzle]

tell that to a jew

what about my people.

im pretty sure the jews aren't "your" people.....

please inform me if otherwise

[hulmey]

Guiscard your a patheic reason for a human being...Did i insult you? Did i mention the black race? Just a page before in this thread are 2 blacks with nazi symbols are on their chest!!!!!

So go f*ck your mother you wanker!

[Guiscard]

Communisum is death and suppression against the will of the people.....How may people have china killed in the name of communisum, oh and russia, oh the list goes on and on.

It starts out as a good idea as intended by marx but it gets lost along the way with a few million people here and there.

And as for guiscard so what the BNP beat up a few people!!!!!!!

Why is the BNP now getting stronger and stronger in the UK...Coz we in the UK are under attack from extremists and terroists....

They come to our country and dont respect the way we live!!!!!!!

Guiscard your a patheic reason for a human being...Did i insult you? Did i mention the black race? Just a page before in this thread are 2 blacks with nazi symbols are on their chest!!!!!

So go f*ck your mother you wanker!

OK I'll answer this one calmly...

Yes you did insult me ( a great deal) by excusing people like the BNP. I'm sure you've nothing against black people but the larger majority of groups like the BNP do, and myself and people I know very well have suffered the consequences (as I explained before). I don't really know what those black guys with swastikas on their chests has to do with anything really... What was your point? From your profile it says you live in Malta. How old are you? What experience do you have of the UK at the moment? What experience do you have of my town or the city where I live now? What experience of you had of these extremeists and terrorists? I'll tell you what I have had experience of and thats biggots excusing violence, facism and racism in the name of fighting back against people who 'come to our country and don't respect the way we live.'

Perhaps this should be moved to a more appropriate forum now? Its nothing to do with cheating or abuse. Sorry for the misdirection of this thread Mods...

[cdman]

first of all guiscard the uk has never being under a facist or communist order. my country ROMANIA was under both. facism for a couple of yaers and communism for half a century. so don't start talking about you're past aggressions.
second of all this subject has gone i very different direction from when it started.
give up!
no one gives a shit if i put a iron cross(with a swastika) on my avatar.
if you want to continue this discusion pm me and we'll go to FLAME WARS!
if no have a nice life!

[Guiscard]

first of all guiscard the uk has never being under a facist or communist order. my country ROMANIA was under both. facism for a couple of yaers and communism for half a century. so don't start talking about you're past aggressions.
second of all this subject has gone i very different direction from when it started.
give up!
no one gives a shit if i put a iron cross(with a swastika) on my avatar.
if you want to continue this discusion pm me and we'll go to FLAME WARS!
if no have a nice life!

Don't worry CDman I'm not reffering to your avatar anymore. Don't worry I won't bother you any more. I've asked them to move the thread anyway. Surey due to the past of your country you can see why I so object to people condoning the beginnings of that kind of behaviour in mine?