The Big Question

[Merciless Wong]

Look, if you guys are so confident everything is fine why not leave the poll up. It would be good to see your views confirmed.

[the.killing.44]

Look, if you guys are so confident everything is fine why not leave the poll up. It would be good to see your views confirmed.

Can do. As I write this, 75% say don't change anything and 25% want change, although I think 5% that said they were in AADOMM and wanted change was mibi fooling around.

.44

[mibi]

This poll is stupid, really it is. It's a stupid poll.

[oaktown]

All CC polls are stupid, really they are.

Fixed.

Out of curiosity, sailorseal, what is "the big question" that you mention in the thread title? I don't see a specific question in the first post, so I guess the question is the poll question, "What do you want?"

[RjBeals]

I think you people shouldn't expect that much from this place. It's a friggin free community forum. I got personally hurt when Lack changed the classic map without involving some us old timers in the loop - I mean we're making the bread & butter for that guy, with almost no benefit to us, besides the satisfaction of playing on one of our maps. It's not like it probably would have mattered anyway, really... But it showed me exactly where my place is with this site.

I do not want to be a mod. i do not want to be stamp licker. I do not what any additional responsibility to take up my free time. I'm going to make maps, and I'm going to provide feedback on the maps I like. That's about it. I'm not going to complain about all the spam threads. I don't care about that stuff. I can sort through what I need to. If a map is worthy of being moved along through the process, then it will. If the maker has too aggressive expectations, then he'll get bored and abandoned it. It's happened before, and it'll happen again.

When I say it ain't what it used to be... There was way less people involved in the maps. It was more of a tight knit group, who meshed well together. There seemed to be more passion in the group. There was no handbook, or stamp lickers or sub-forums. It was just the map foundry, and a group of dedicated cartographers. That's why the Animated Description of MrMaps group was such a great idea. It was private group for us dedicated map makers to come together. And it thrived in the beginning.

Well the MrMaps group is pretty much stagnate now (as Oak pointed out). We call each other douche bags, and that's about 90% of it. The foundry has grown, which is good. We've gotten some badass maps out of it. But there's also a lot more threads to weed through to get to them. If you can just take this place for what it is, you'll feel a lot better. I've wasted a lot of hours in these threads. It's fine with me. Who knows how long i'll be an active member. Never can tell.

But in conclusion - don't expect to get more out of this site than is reasonable. It's a free online gaming community, open to any member with an internet connection. You should feel lucky if you develop a "real" friend out of this - but don't feel it's the norm.

[Woodruff]

just about a month ago I mentioned to the foundry mod team that we have gone a long time without one of these little revolutions. They happen every six months or so, and they're always about the same problems: the Foundry is cliquey, the process is too subjective, new mapmakers/posters aren't treated with respect, folks outside of the Foundry are afraid to come in here, there's a cancer in the Foundry, etc.

Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't the fact that it does seem to recur regularly serve as a pointer to a potential problem?

The process is really hard on new mapmakers. It really friggin is. Over the two years that I've been around we have developed a lot of expectations, many of which are unwritten and can overwhelm a new mapmaker.

Easily fixed, so it should be! Don't allow them to continue to be unwritten. I know for me, I check handbooks and such before starting something, so this would at least help alleviate the frustration for those who do so (which are at least more likely to be the new mapmakers who are the most serious).

[Incandenza]

Easily fixed, so it should be! Don't allow them to continue to be unwritten. I know for me, I check handbooks and such before starting something, so this would at least help alleviate the frustration for those who do so (which are at least more likely to be the new mapmakers who are the most serious).

That sounds easy, but the unwritten rules to which oak referred are unwritten for a reason, in that they are highly subjective, mutable from person to person, and extremely resistant to any sort of ordering process. Believe me, people have been trying to bring order to the foundry for a long time. But mapmaking is a creative process, and in its own way commenting on mapmaking is a creative process, and creative processes are difficult to encapsulate in rules and by-laws and lists...

[yeti_c]

Usually the issue is made by some of the new blood who has banged their head against the seamingly hard brick wall of the foundry...

Those who already know the processes can usually work their way over the wall fairly seamlessly!

C.

[john9blue]

The reason is because our maps are getting better and better and our standards are increasing. Look at Jota's old maps, and then look at maps by WM and Oaktown and mibi. The difference is obvious. We have more people on the site, so there is a lot of new talent, but for most people who would have made a perfectly acceptable map back in 2007, the bar is set too high. Either they start the project and give up in futility, or they don't even bother starting at all, or the occasional person pulls through and get something quenched. But you can't get a map through the Foundry in a month anymore. Also, most of the major geographical regions are taken, so it takes some original thinking to pull it off- thinking which may be met with skepticism, as most new ideas are.

I can't even remember how many failed drafts I have. Baffle, Industry, Dodecahedron, Road Trip. Some I didn't even post (Pinball, Orchestra, Human Brain, Enneagram, Dartboard) because I realized they wouldn't make it. I can honestly say that I would have had more fun playing on at least two of those than I would on Chess. Why is Chess still alive? Because it was my very first post and predates all my other drafts by months. I believe the standards have raised since then.

I enjoy creating new ideas, so I keep going. Most people aren't quite as tolerant, or don't derive the same enjoyment, or don't have random ideas all the time. It's only natural that as the process becomes more advanced and streamlined, and as the learning curve becomes higher and higher, the process will be less conducive to newcomers. I'm afraid there's nothing we can really do about that (except start producing only shitty maps, lol)... but we can make the environment a little less daunting and a little more open-minded.

[Merciless Wong]

That sounds easy, but the unwritten rules to which oak referred are unwritten for a reason, in that they are highly subjective, mutable from person to person, and extremely resistant to any sort of ordering process. Believe me, people have been trying to bring order to the foundry for a long time. But mapmaking is a creative process, and in its own way commenting on mapmaking is a creative process, and creative processes are difficult to encapsulate in rules and by-laws and lists...

The argument that things are subjective so we need more power and less accountability is an old one...I disagree its creative, its primarily political.

[oaktown]

Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't the fact that it does seem to recur regularly serve as a pointer to a potential problem?

Absolutely. I've found that the foundry family feuds start up right in the middle of a period of foundry growth and when the staff is trying to catch up, as it is right now. The CAs have been overworked for a couple of months now, and the stress of this has been felt at the top and the bottom. I've stepped down, and a half-dozen new staff members have been brought in. Once we get everybody up to speed the Foundry will look quite different, stamps will be in different hands, and maps will get more attention. I think most will applaud the changes and we'll be able to live happily again until, oh, November when folks start fall finals and people are stressed out again.

Easily fixed, so it should be! Don't allow them to continue to be unwritten. I know for me, I check handbooks and such before starting something, so this would at least help alleviate the frustration for those who do so (which are at least more likely to be the new mapmakers who are the most serious).

Some of us tried by writing the Mapmakers' Gude, but as soon as it was written it was obsolete. As the Foundry grows the expectations change - as they should. Writing all this down requires finding somebody who actually understands how this place works and why, and keeping it current takes time that most of don't have/want to spend on this kind of work. Then what happens is somebody holds up an old document and says "see, I have territory names, so my map should be quenched." Bleh.

The reason is because our maps are getting better and better and our standards are increasing. Look at Jota's old maps, and then look at maps by WM and Oaktown and mibi.

True, but in some ways unfortunate. I know that I, Widowmakers, rjBeals, mibi, and others strive to make sure that each of our maps is in some way better than the last map that we made. But that doesn't mean that everybody's map has to be better than the last map that I made. Our standards should be high, but we shouldn't have these constantly rising expecatations for CC maps. There needs to be some kind of baseline.

The fact that it takes six to nine months to make a map is a bit ludicrous. I'd like to see the good new projects receive more attention, and the makers of the really awful projects told not to waste their time... it would save everybody time and energy. But I need to get to work, so I'll think about how to do this later.

And I'm still wondering what the "Big Question" is... sailorseal?

[sailorseal]

And I'm still wondering what the "Big Question" is... sailorseal?

Oak, the big questions is why you won't call me sailor!
No it's really will I get a warning for spamming with this thread? Or will someone flame me here?
(Both jokes)

No the question was "Is there a way to remove the feeling associated with the Foundry?"

It seems no, we are just better then regulars in all of the other forums

[Woodruff]

Easily fixed, so it should be! Don't allow them to continue to be unwritten. I know for me, I check handbooks and such before starting something, so this would at least help alleviate the frustration for those who do so (which are at least more likely to be the new mapmakers who are the most serious).

That sounds easy, but the unwritten rules to which oak referred are unwritten for a reason, in that they are highly subjective, mutable from person to person, and extremely resistant to any sort of ordering process. Believe me, people have been trying to bring order to the foundry for a long time. But mapmaking is a creative process, and in its own way commenting on mapmaking is a creative process, and creative processes are difficult to encapsulate in rules and by-laws and lists...

I certainly can see that. And yet, what do you think is driving new mapmakers batty? The fact that they DON'T have a good guide as to what's expected. I'm not saying that you list out explicits...I'm saying that you discuss generalities so that there is still a guide and new mapmakers do have at least a decent understanding of what is to be expected rather than blindly thrashing around in the dark.

[oaktown]

I certainly can see that. And yet, what do you think is driving new mapmakers batty? The fact that they DON'T have a good guide as to what's expected. I'm not saying that you list out explicits...I'm saying that you discuss generalities so that there is still a guide and new mapmakers do have at least a decent understanding of what is to be expected rather than blindly thrashing around in the dark.

Check out the Mapmakers Guide and let me know if this starts to answer the question you think need to be addressed and lays out expectations.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 27&t=81664

[Woodruff]

I certainly can see that. And yet, what do you think is driving new mapmakers batty? The fact that they DON'T have a good guide as to what's expected. I'm not saying that you list out explicits...I'm saying that you discuss generalities so that there is still a guide and new mapmakers do have at least a decent understanding of what is to be expected rather than blindly thrashing around in the dark.

Check out the Mapmakers Guide and let me know if this starts to answer the question you think need to be addressed and lays out expectations.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 27&t=81664

In fact, that's precisely the problem. As I mentioned previously, I'm one who DOES read the various guides before working on something, and I did so here. That directly caused MY problem. I posted an idea in the "Ideas/Suggestions" forum and apparently failed to provide a draft map, despite the fact that I did describe my idea in great detail. I was told (by more than one person) that the reason nobody responded to my request for input on my idea was because I did not provide that draft map. Here's the link to that thread:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 63&t=80593

And yet, according to the MapMakers Guide:
"Map Ideas/Suggestions
The Map Ideas/Suggestions forum is a place to discuss possible maps, or to develop your own idea before posting a draft."

There you go. I end up getting essentially no constructive feedback on my map idea even though I did as the MapMakers Guide suggested. And that isn't at all a part of the MapMaker's Guide that is really subjective...it's quite objective, in fact. Perhaps the problem is that I read the MapMakers Guide and nobody else has?

Or maybe, as has been suggested, it was the fact that I was a "nobody" as far as mapmaking goes, and so not worth anyone's time to bother?

[oaktown]

No, Woodruff, the Guide is correct. The Ideas forum is a place to discuss potential maps for which there is not yet a working draft.

What you ran into isn't a problem with the Guide, nor with the function or operation of that sub-forum. The problem is that your idea generated very little interest. To date the thread has received 123 views, so a lot of folks probably read it and moved on. In fact, you pointed out in your own thread that...

A lot of folks have read mine, but apparently nobody thought strongly enough one way or the other about it to bother commenting. <sigh>

Sailorseal says that the "big question" that he wants us to consider is Is there a way to remove the feeling associated with the Foundry? I guess that the most common negative feeling associated with the Foundry is frustration, but I think we all feel that for different reasons. Woodruff, Merciless_Wong, and others have felt frustrated lately because their ideas and maps - which they thought were pretty good - failed to impress. New mapmakers in general feel frustrated because there just isn't enough feedback to go around - too many chiefs, not enough indians. I felt frustrated as a CA because I felt like all I ever did was massage egos and issue warnings for poor behavior. Qwert felt frustrated because he believed that we were conspiring against him. And Sailorseal feels frustrated because I won't call him "sailor."

I like what RjBeals said earlier: "It's a friggin free community forum." If I decided that I wasn't getting what I want out of this on-line gaming forum, i would find another one rather than ruining it for the rest of you. In fact, I think that's going to be my new stance around here: the forum is what it is, a place to make maps. If you don't like it, go away. I'll sig it right now.

[WidowMakers]

And yet, according to the MapMakers Guide:
"Map Ideas/Suggestions
The Map Ideas/Suggestions forum is a place to discuss possible maps, or to develop your own idea before posting a draft."

There you go. I end up getting essentially no constructive feedback on my map idea even though I did as the MapMakers Guide suggested. And that isn't at all a part of the MapMaker's Guide that is really subjective...it's quite objective, in fact. Perhaps the problem is that I read the MapMakers Guide and nobody else has?

Or maybe, as has been suggested, it was the fact that I was a "nobody" as far as mapmaking goes, and so not worth anyone's time to bother?

The it should be changed to

• Map Ideas/Suggestions
  • The Map Ideas/Suggestions forum is a place to discuss possible maps, or to develop your own idea. Also including a rough draft of your map will go a long way in helping explain you idea to others. Remember a picture is worth 1,000 words

That would be my suggestion to alter the guide. And you also need to remember the guide is a guide. It is not 100% set in stone. It has changed over the years. There a few SET IN STONE rules (maps size being one of them) but the rest is just there to help people who have never done this.

I actually posted something last week but apparently is did not work. Here is what it was in a nutshell

Questions: (please answer these anyone)

• 1) Can anyone try to make a map?
  2) Does everyoen have the skills to make a map?
  3) Are all map ideas good?
  4) Can a person learn to make a better map (idea/skills)
  5) Does a person have a right to get a map quenched.

My answers:

• 1) Yes
  2) No
  3) No
  4) Yes. Work hard and practice. Tutorials, ask question, make mistakes, learn. Rinse and repeat.
  5) No. Quenched maps are an earned privilege not a right for all to receive.

The biggest thing that I have seem is people who thing that #3 and 5 are YES. They think that their idea is AWESOME regardless fo what others say. And even if 2 people like it and everyone else does not, they think the map should continue. Then they think that since there are some people who like the map ,even though everyoen else or several other make suggestions or think it should not go on (for GFX to game pay problems), they yell and cry foul at the process of the foundry.

My suggestion is to stop crying about stuff. Get an idea, make a draft, let everyoen see. if it sucks (I have had my share of bad ideas and maps) then start over or leave. I did not get to where I am today by crying and complaining about the suppression of my creativity or the neglect of the foundry. I practiced, practiced, practice and practiced some more.

[sailorseal]

nd Sailorseal feels frustrated because I won't call him "sailor."

*oak adds to frustration*

[Woodruff]

No, Woodruff, the Guide is correct. The Ideas forum is a place to discuss potential maps for which there is not yet a working draft.
What you ran into isn't a problem with the Guide, nor with the function or operation of that sub-forum. The problem is that your idea generated very little interest.

No, "very little interest" was NOT the problem, for two reasons:

1) I'd have been THRILLED if people could have told me they had very little interest in my map. THAT IS THE PROBLEM...nobody was even bothering to give me NEGATIVE stuff. Thus, you have hit precisely on my frustration. At least then I'd have known it was a bad idea.

2) The responses I DID get were all telling me to make a freaking map. When that's not what that area is for. I'm not saying the Guide is wrong (where did you get that idea from?), I'm saying the users of that forum are viewing its' purpose wrong. Which you have essentially verified here.

[Woodruff]

And yet, according to the MapMakers Guide:
"Map Ideas/Suggestions
The Map Ideas/Suggestions forum is a place to discuss possible maps, or to develop your own idea before posting a draft."

There you go. I end up getting essentially no constructive feedback on my map idea even though I did as the MapMakers Guide suggested. And that isn't at all a part of the MapMaker's Guide that is really subjective...it's quite objective, in fact. Perhaps the problem is that I read the MapMakers Guide and nobody else has?

Or maybe, as has been suggested, it was the fact that I was a "nobody" as far as mapmaking goes, and so not worth anyone's time to bother?

The it should be changed to

• Map Ideas/Suggestions
  • The Map Ideas/Suggestions forum is a place to discuss possible maps, or to develop your own idea. Also including a rough draft of your map will go a long way in helping explain you idea to others. Remember a picture is worth 1,000 words

That would be my suggestion to alter the guide. And you also need to remember the guide is a guide. It is not 100% set in stone. It has changed over the years. There a few SET IN STONE rules (maps size being one of them) but the rest is just there to help people who have never done this.

I actually posted something last week but apparently is did not work. Here is what it was in a nutshell

Questions: (please answer these anyone)

• 1) Can anyone try to make a map?
  2) Does everyoen have the skills to make a map?
  3) Are all map ideas good?
  4) Can a person learn to make a better map (idea/skills)
  5) Does a person have a right to get a map quenched.

My answers:

• 1) Yes
  2) No
  3) No
  4) Yes. Work hard and practice. Tutorials, ask question, make mistakes, learn. Rinse and repeat.
  5) No. Quenched maps are an earned privilege not a right for all to receive.

The biggest thing that I have seem is people who thing that #3 and 5 are YES. They think that their idea is AWESOME regardless fo what others say. And even if 2 people like it and everyone else does not, they think the map should continue. Then they think that since there are some people who like the map ,even though everyoen else or several other make suggestions or think it should not go on (for GFX to game pay problems), they yell and cry foul at the process of the foundry.

My suggestion is to stop crying about stuff. Get an idea, make a draft, let everyoen see. if it sucks (I have had my share of bad ideas and maps) then start over or leave. I did not get to where I am today by crying and complaining about the suppression of my creativity or the neglect of the foundry. I practiced, practiced, practice and practiced some more.

Hard to improve a map idea when I can't get any feedback from those who seem to know how I could improve the map idea.

[sailorseal]

That is the problem with ideas, you can't get a discussion going until you have a map and sadly that is just the way it is

[Woodruff]

That is the problem with ideas, you can't get a discussion going until you have a map and sadly that is just the way it is

The MapMakers own Guide disagrees with you.

As well, I disagree completely. A well-fleshed-out idea is just as prepared for discussion as a poorly-drawn map. My initial post in that thread laid out the premise of the map quite well, so that anyone reading it certainly would be able to understand the map concept enough to at least give it a thumbs-up or thumbs-down regarding whether it was worth pursuing or not.

[sailorseal]

That is the problem with ideas, you can't get a discussion going until you have a map and sadly that is just the way it is

The MapMakers own Guide disagrees with you.

As well, I disagree completely. A well-fleshed-out idea is just as prepared for discussion as a poorly-drawn map. My initial post in that thread laid out the premise of the map quite well, so that anyone reading it certainly would be able to understand the map concept enough to at least give it a thumbs-up or thumbs-down regarding whether it was worth pursuing or not.

Some ideas sound good and maybe look good on paper but when drawn they reveal that the idea is terrible, so approval cannot really be given until you see a map.

[oaktown]

It is indeed somewhat rare that a new idea posted in the Ideas sub-forum gets a lot of attention. I think there are several reasons for this...

1) Most of the ideas in there aren't very good.

2) Most of the ideas will never get made, both because they aren't very good and because they have nobody working on them. If there was a mapmaker committed to the idea, they'd be drafts. If people think an idea is never going to be made they won't post, because...

3) People have a limited amount of time to spend looking at/commenting on other people's maps.

Now, we could say all of that in the Mapmakers' Guide, but the effect would be that people would stop using the Idea subforum. If that's what we wanted, we could just delete it and save the space. But it does serve a purpose, and occasionally a good idea comes out of there. The Conquer Crater thread has 59 posts and it looks like they've picked up a photoshop guy to make the map. The Spain thread started as an idea, but now has a draft and probably should be moved. World 2.2 is up to 11 pages.

You're absolutely right that the "make a map" responses can be frustrating, but in reading through your thread I get the impression that the comments weren't asking you to make a map, but to simply sketch something out to help readers understand your idea. You presented a wall of text to a bunch of people who have shown themselves to be visual learners.

[sailorseal]

[quote="oaktown"]The Conquer Crater thread has 59 posts and it looks like they've picked up a photoshop guy to make the map. The Spain thread started as an idea,/quote]
Oh who helped guide them...