Mongol Empire Map [Quenched]

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:17 pm

OK have added a trade route from Lhasa to Samarkand. Hopefully this should help open up the problem between east and west without affecting borders. What do you think?

happysadfun · Post by **happysadfun** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:26 pm

It works... but I have two questions.

Can you control the Gobi Desert?
Can you make it clearer that the trade route is also an attack route?

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:11 pm

No you can't control the gobi desert. I know this looks confusing now but it will certainly be obvious when army shadows are added (as there won't be one there).

How would people suggest I make it clear its an attack route?

In the legend? Write it along the route?

Was thinking maybe 'Attack along trade route' written along the line.

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:40 pm

Guiscard wrote:No you can't control the gobi desert. I know this looks confusing now but it will certainly be obvious when army shadows are added (as there won't be one there).

How would people suggest I make it clear its an attack route?

In the legend? Write it along the route?

Was thinking maybe 'Attack along trade route' written along the line.

Dont change that, if someone is stupid enough not to figure out that is why you included a trade route they probably should've been aborted.

Although their mom probably figured survival of the fittest would rule them out.

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:04 pm

Does the border between Yugor and Tian Shan still need opening up? What do you recon foundry???

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:53 pm

And do people now think that the red continent is justified in having a bonus of 4???

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:43 pm

I still think the blue area is not very attractive, while tibet and song are a powerfull double.

Rename the trade route as attack route or something... Trade? You must be joking

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:02 pm

Nah, keep 'Trade Route'. It makes sense for the map. You can always state that you can attack from 'Trade Routes' in the legend if need be.

--Andy

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:57 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Nah, keep 'Trade Route'. It makes sense for the map. You can always state that you can attack from 'Trade Routes' in the legend if need be.

--Andy

O rly? Why cater to retards more than we already have?

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:41 pm

Marvaddin wrote:I still think the blue area is not very attractive, while tibet and song are a powerfull double.

Together they'd give a bonus of 5 with 3 borders... thats the same as both Ilkhanate and Golden Horde. Surely this doesn't give anyone a advantage over taking and holding either of those (apart from it is slightly harder to break).

rgbubba · Post by **rgbubba** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:43 am

What program did you use? I like it!

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:35 am

Photoshop.

cdman · Post by **cdman** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:35 pm

good map but i whould have put 8 armies for the blue continent

Wake · Post by **Wake** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:01 am

Hell that looks cool,.. I look forward to playing on it someday

ViscountGort · Post by **ViscountGort** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:04 am

Guiscard, this map is excellent, already more attractive than many of those i use on the site. Great work. I'd also like to say I've really enjoyed reading through this thread and seeing how a map like this develops.

I'll share some thoughts & see if they're useful.

I think Song is a very awkward continent. I think your wish to adhere to history is admirable, but for gameplay I don't think song should be separate from tibet. It's good when Maps have a small continent offering a bonus of just 2, but typically these continents are far easier to hold than Song will be. There are usually just 1 or 2 territories bordering such continents, but in song's case there's 4 countries that can attack, which means 2 of song's 3 territories will need to be well defended if song is to be held, and this may not be justifiable for a bonus of 2.

The only use for Song will be for a player to hold it alongside tibet:
Song - 2 territories to defend from, 4 to defend aginst - bonus 2.
Song & Tibet - 3 territories to defend from, 5 to defend aginst - bonus 5.
They make more sense as 1 continent.

If possible, I'd suggest you redraw some borders and expand & reorientate the gobi desert, to create a small northeastern continent out of some countries currently in Yuan Khante. Ideally this would have 4 territories. One or two of them meet the rest of the map between the gobi desert & the sea, giving the player a continent they can defend. Then song & tibet can be merged into the larger continent.

Just an idea.

Additionally, I think Andy brought this up earlier - in the legend the continents seem to be listed randomly. Could they be listed either by geographical location or (more preferably) by descending order of bonus?

Finally, I think Trade Route is fine. Attack route is silly and Attack along trade route is a bit long. It looks good now and is clearly there for a reason, and in this game there can be only one.

ViscountGort.

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:29 am

Thanks for the input Visocunt. Looks like a workable solution to the problem actually. It wouldn't be too much of a problem historically to do what you are saying I don't think (as opposed to merging parts of golden horde with yuan as maravaddin suggested earlier).

Have just scribbled around with a temporary mockup to see if this is the kind of thing you were getting at...

Gobi desert extended to touch the non-playable area. Keraits and kalinbaq the border of a new grey continent (will research a name). Tibet and Song merged.

Any good?

I'll sort the legend out next update. One further point is the border between Tian-Shan and Idiquit. I've left it blocked but people have suggested it should be opened up. Any ideas?

ViscountGort · Post by **ViscountGort** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:38 am

yeah guiscard that's perfect - exactly what i had in mind.

the continent names i leave entirely in your capable hands (clearly a new name for the grey continent, but also can the green one still be called tibet?).

I've given some thought to the situation with tian and idiqut. I think the best plan is to shift the mountains on the border further north, so that you open up the tian-idiqut border (which seems to be popular) but close the tian-naimans border. this way the red continent still has the same number of borders and can keep the same bonus. i think that could work really well, what do you think?

speaking of bonuses, grey is worth 2, but we need to rework those for blue & green. i'd suggest 3 for blue, i'm not sure about green.

one slightly awkward thing with the new green continent is that it only has to defend itself out of 3 countries. could yugor be split somewhere along the kakoram border? to keep the total number of territories constant, what about merging kitan & nuzhen, so the smaller continent only has 4 territories?

sorry, i feel like i'm redrawing your whole map here! what are your thoughts on all this?

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:04 pm

Don't worry its very useful criticism and its helping to create a more balanced map! I'm really thankful for the help.

As Tian Shan is already a border with Naimans and Yugor already borders both naimans and karakorum, just simply opening the tian/yugor bordr wouldn't increase the number of borders in itself. I think i'll do this rather than complicate things with a furhter impassable border.

Also in regards to the grene continent: There is also the trade route border so that gives the following new totals (provisionally):

Green: 4 borders / 8 territories / Bonus of 5
Grey: 2 borders / 5 territories / Bonus of 2
Blue: 4 Borders / 6 territories / Bonus of 4 (you suggested 3, bit with 4 borders connecting to 4 other continents it seems fair for it to be higher).

These alterations also have the effect of getting rid of what andy descirbes as a wastelenad continent, which I am in favour of as it means the taking the existing continents are more achieveable and it will make for a more interesting game.

I'll get a proper update done with the re-draw as soon as possible.

Thanks for the support.

Lone.prophet · Post by **Lone.prophet** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:37 pm

with this cont distrebuting the map has 1 small continent, this may lead 2 imbalances

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:13 pm

Ok heres the update:

Changed the continents around in line with the ideas suggested. The bonuses are provisional, however. Also a problem is that now there is no bonus 3 continent. Does this matter? What can be done about it?

ViscountGort · Post by **ViscountGort** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:25 pm

guiscard that looks great.

i really feel the new continent distribution is an improvement. as well as improving gameplay, it also makes the map more visually balanced, as we now have 3 northern and 3 southern continents. looking forward to hearing andy's verdict on the change.

you were right about the green continent, i'd forgotten about that sneaky trade route when posting my previous comments.

as regards the lack of a 3-bonus continent, this isn't a problem for me, but what does everyone else make of it......?

was really happy to help with this one guiscard.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:31 pm

Werent Keraits and Khanbaliq supposed to be part of the new "Jin" area? That would be perfect!

Beyond that, I would suggest:
Block Yugor - Karakorum route
Remove the trade route

The map is done! Just adjust the bonuses if needed

Scorba · Post by **Scorba** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:44 pm

As a 3 country, 1 border continent Jin should only be a 1 bonus. Who really cares if there is no 3 bonus continent? Not every map needs one.

Lone.prophet · Post by **Lone.prophet** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:45 pm

could u make a attackt route korea-fukien

ViscountGort · Post by **ViscountGort** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:49 pm

Scorba wrote:As a 3 country, 1 border continent Jin should only be a 1 bonus.

A bonus of 2 may be a bit generous here, but a bonus of 1 is pretty much worthless. instead of lowering the bonus, could keraits be curved around to meet the sea, and then be made part of Jin. Now Jin is a 4-country, 1-border continent. This is deserving of a 2 bonus. I wouldn't bring back the korea-fukien attack route as this reduces Jin's defensibility too much.

Mongol Empire Map [Quenched]

It looks good!